10mm vs 45 ACP which has more stopping power.

Status
Not open for further replies.
So you just have a projectile in your pocket and it jumps out and stops the threat all by itself.

As you wish. If you wish me to believe that you are obtuse, your job here is done.

The OP didn't ask about accuracy or which one was easier to get good hits with. he asked about stopping power. stopping power= effectiveness= terminal performance of the projectile.

You've confused accuracy with actual placement. What the projectile can do is independent of the specific anatomy that it strikes.

Given any single location a bullet with a smaller and shorter wound channel will never out perform one with a larger and deeper wound channel.

Which presumes equal placement. "Stopping power" is an ambiguous term that cannot adequately quantify the infinite anatomical variables of that parameter.

FAIL.
 
Last edited:
Isn't it true then that the Germans created the 9mm to wound and not kill because in war by wounding the enemy you tie them up more when they have to tend or get their wounded men out of there?

I have no idea whether or not this is true but modern SD ammunition is far more effective than the original low velocity ball variety.
 
Isn't it true then that the Germans created the 9mm to wound and not kill because in war by wounding the enemy you tie them up more when they have to tend or get their wounded men out of there-this is what I heard.

Where do these things get started?
 
SWAG

It depends on what you mean by stopping power. I'll intuit from your post that you mean stopping a human assailant before they can hurt you. Of course, shot placement is everything, but sometimes we don't get 'em in the heart, or head. If we did, alot of people would just carry a .22, and these debates would be moot. There are alot of very smart people here giving you correct technical information about bullet physics, shot placement and the like. And they are correct. But untill the bullet hits the dirtbag, it's all a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess). lol. Also the comparison of calibers is to simplistic, as there is alot of overlap between the two calibers depending on bullet design, bullet weight, bullet velocity, etc... All this information, although correct, can be confusing. To see what happens in the real world, I look at actual shooting statistics. Very few of us have actually shot someone, and those of us who have, have probably not shot enough people for their experiences to be statistically usefull. Although shooting animals can be very illuminating, and I would trust these experiences over alot of the science, animals are a good deal tougher than people and what stops a man best may not be what stops an animal best and vice versa. A good source of actual shooting statistics can be found in the "Stopping Power" books written by Marshal and Sanow. I recommend you buy them. If the statistical sample is large enough, variables like shot placement tend to average out somewhat. I know it's not perfect, but unless we do "strassburg tests" on death row inmates, it's as close to the real thing as we are likely to get. If memory serves me, both the Federal 230gr Hydra-shok, and the Remington 185gr Golden Saber are at the top of the heap in .45 auto, at near 96%. Most 10mm's will get you more range and penetration though. I think the best performers in the 10mm catagory are the Federal 155gr jhp and the Cor-Bon 150gr jhp's at around 90%, but with the 10mm there have not been enough shootings with the respective bullet types to be statistically reliable. Also some of the more powerfull rounds from Doubletap and the like are not in the sample (probably too much kick for alot of departments to go with). In the end, either will do (no pun intended).
My personal choices (not nessesarily yours): As most actual shootings occur at very close distances, where range and penetration are not as much of an issue, my CWP gun is a .45. I load it with the Remmington 185gr Golden saber's. They are a little lighter and faster than the Hydra-shoks, and recoil is a little less so I can double tap a little faster with them. When out hunting in the field I go with the 10mm, and load them with Doubletap's 165gr Golden saber at 1425 feet per second and 744 footpounds of energy, for protection against "big bitey scratchy things". If your pistol has a conventionally rifled barrel, you might go with Doubletap's 200gr hardcast at 1300 feet per second for bear and such, but your range for hunting may suffer, and I have seen them suffer from stabilization problems effecting accuracy, but if attacked by a bear, "minute of bear" accuracy will do. I hope I was helpfull. Mick P.S. If in bear country, consider carrying a .500 S&W mag or similarly powered pistol. If I had to fight a large brown bear with a 10mm or a .45, I think I would shat in my pants. The "big bitey scratchy things" down here in florida are not that big.
 
Which presumes equal placement. "Stopping power" is an ambiguous term that cannot adequately quantify the infinite anatomical variables of that parameter.
Then I ask for a single example of the "infinite anatomical variables" where a less powerful round making a smaller shorter wound channel would be better?

No need for any more ad hominem attacks or non sequitur arguements, just one example of a anitomical location where a bigger hole in the threat is less likely to stop it.
 
"just one example of an anatomical location where a bigger hole in a threat is less likely to stop it"

Hey Mavracer, I've got it! It's the "A" Hole. The bigger they are, the less likely you are to stop them. lol
 
Last edited:
insensible
Typically means imperceptible, unconscious or numb.
Asking someone to prove something so that they can then disprove it
I didn't do that. You claimed that "stopping power" doesn't exist, and then you stipulated the term had no settled definition. I pointed out that then, for your claim to be true, each possible definition of stopping power must be shown not to exist.

If any one "stopping power" exists, your claim is false.

So, again, pick one defintion of stopping power--any you like--and prove it doesn't exist. Then we can go on to the next definition of your choosing, and so on. Once we've go though them all, you've proved your point.

Might take some time, but you seem game.
 
Last edited:
Then I ask for a single example of the "infinite anatomical variables" where a less powerful round making a smaller shorter wound channel would be better?

I never said or implied anything of the sort.


No need for any more ad hominem attacks or non sequitur arguements, just one example of a anitomical location where a bigger hole in the threat is less likely to stop it.


If you want to be obtuse that is fine with me. Just don't ask me to justify such nonsense.
 
Typically means imperceptible, unconscious or numb.

Numb seems a fitting description of your demonstrated reasoning.

I didn't do that. You claimed that "stopping power" doesn't exist, and then you stipulated the term had no settled definition. I pointed out that then, for your claim to be true, each possible definition of stopping power must be shown not to exist.

Sure you did. You asked me to define the concept and then prove it incorrect after coming up with a definition. Even if you subscribe to such nonsense, it falls to no one except you to define such garbage. That you cannot keep your thoughts straight is not my fault. That you have failed to define your pet term, doesn't require me to search all possibilities to deny it. You imposed the ridiculous condition; you satisfy it. Wanna chase your tail. Go for it? Do your own work.

If any one "stopping power" exists, your claim is false.

So, again, pick one defintion of stopping power--any you like--and prove it doesn't exist. Then we can go on to the next definition of your choosing, and so on. Once we've go though them all, you've proved your point.

Might take some time, but you seem game.

You seem to be avoiding defining a term in which you have some sort of stock. If you are gullible enough to accept the term as being valid without any prior standard or definition then that is your problem, not mine.

You call for a definition of "stopping power" yet have none (as evidenced by its absence) to offer in the first place. Given what little you've contributed, I doubt that we'll see anything meaningful from you anytime soon.

I know that I have come to expect nothing more of you.
 
Last edited:
Is attacking another person's views and calling them names really that productive? Seriously 481. Disagreement and debate I understand, but name calling will not help others see your point of view.

The 10mm is the superior cartridge provided the operator does his/her part.
 
I am unfamiliar with the term "numb reasoning." Perhaps you would enlighten?
after coming up with a proven definition.
Please show where I asked for a "proven" definition.
You seem to be avoiding defining a term
Why should I define it?

You have stated that "stopping power" is undefined, and yet doesn't exist. So, no matter what definition I (or anyone) were to come up with, you've already said it doesn't exist.

Perhaps your having trouble understanding the nature of your claim? Or trouble admitting it?

I'm just asking you to prove it; or admit that it's simply your opinion. I'll take either.
 
Is attacking another person's views and calling them names really that productive? Seriously 481. Disagreement and debate I understand, but name calling will not help others see your point of view.

The 10mm is the superior cartridge provided the operator does his/her part.

Save it.

A superfluous term like "superior" means nothing without specifying the way in which the adjective "superior" is being applied.
 
Last edited:
I am unfamiliar with the term "numb reasoning."

Sure you are.

Perhaps you would enlighten? Please show where I asked for a "proven" definition. Why should I define it?

You have stated that "stopping power" is undefined, and yet doesn't exist.

So, no matter what definition I (or anyone) were to come up with, you've already said it doesn't exist.

Perhaps your having trouble understanding the nature of your claim? Or trouble admitting it?

I'm just asking you to prove it; or admit that it's simply your opinion. I'll take either.

The same standard can be applied to you. I have asked you to do the same and you could do nothing more than present as evidence of your position the opinion of another. Gimme a break. :rolleyes:

Your little "word games", they bore me.
 
Last edited:
481 said:
You asked me to define the concept and then prove it incorrect after coming up with a definition.
No, he asked you to take your pick of any one of the alternate definitions IE effectiveness and disprove that.
It's you being obtuse refusing to accept any definition for stopping power that has derailed this thread.
So if handgun projectiles don't have the power to stop a threat why do you even have them.
 
So did you guys ever decide if "stopping power" was the same thing as "kinetic energy" (mass x velocity squared)?

Or is it the same thing as "momentum" (mass x velocity)?

Or is it the same thing as "penetration" (inches)?

Or is it the same thing as "shot placement" (not sure what units to use here)?

Or is it the same thing as "temporary wound cavity" (inches)?

Or is it the same thing as "permanant wound cavity" (inches)?

Or is it the same thing as "split time between shots" (seconds)?

Or is it something else?

Maybe some combination of all the above (for instance, 99.99999998% shot placement plus .000000002% of each of the others)?

Once you agree on how to quantify it, it'll be easy to determine which one is best. ;)
 
I'm pretty sure "we" determined it was something else. If it were penetration (for example), why come up with a new phrase for penetration?

Pehaps we remember the "Fuller index"; it looked at penetration in 10% gelatin, unfired bullet diameter, and bullet muzzle energy. With a simple regression formula, they were able to get a 95% fit to M&S's actual data with just these three variables.

Especially if you don't trust the M&S data, it would be safe to assume that any mathematical model approximating "stopping power" more robustly might involve more variables--maybe quite a few more.
 
Last edited:
I'm pretty sure "we" determined it was something else.

If you did, you've been unwilling (or is it unable?) to provide that definition. So, now that you are "pretty sure" that "we" have determined that it is "something else"; let's have it. What is it?

If it were penetration (for example), why come up with a new phrase for penetration?

You can provide no evidence of anything so far as your posts are concerned. It isn't KE, momentum, permanent wound cavity, temporary wound cavity, penetration. You have nothing.

Perhaps you can find another opinion to offer up as "proof" of the mystical. (cue "spooky" music) :D
 
Maybe I should step in here as an outside observer and define what a layman considers "stopping power" and ask for a specific suggestion as to which round would most accurately meet the definition.
All things being equal (assailant 10 feet away, sunny day, no wind, 75 degrees fahrenheit, at the equator) which round when aimed dead center of the chest is most likely to stop a man from further endangering you immediately? Assuming the assailant is not completely strung out on PCP.

Did I leave anything out? I have just defined "stopping power". Is it scientific? Probably not, but I believe it is the basic question that the OP wants to know. Some things are just overthunk to death.
 
If you did, you've been unwilling (or is it unable?) to provide that definition
You have already said there is no agreed upon definition, so why would I try to define it? However, I thought it was safe to assume it did not equal an already defined quantity--if it did, the term would be redundant.
It isn't KE, momentum, permanent wound cavity, temporary wound cavity, penetration
Since I never said it was any of these, I'm not sure why you conclude I have "nothing."
"proof" of the mystical.
Perhaps you would offer your proof that stopping power is mystical, as you claim? (Odd claim, as you haven't defined stopping power. But then, odd claims seem your game.)

Are you sure you don't want to go back to being bored?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top