1911 cocked-and-locked, anyone ever forgets the safety?

[Hangingrock]

I have this continuity of purpose theme I apply to carry weapons. I do not have a carry rotation as such that employs weapons of differing manual of arms. Over the past several or more years I've employed S&W MP series pistols for concealed carry application a MP9 & MP9c. Both are set up the same. Triggering system Apex Duty Carry, no external thumb safety sight system, 10-8, magazine disconnect, same style holster for both, and the same magazine carrier. The only difference other than size is for the MP9 magazines is the use of Apex/10-8 floor plates. On the MP9C, OEM finger extension magazine floor plates.

With that said as an example when I have a range session with a 1911 series pistol I verbally remind myself " OK Stupid this is the manual of arms for this type pistol" That said there are times I have to remind myself repeatedly. This also occurs with DA/SA semi-automatic pistols and to an exstent use to happen with S&W and Colt revolvers to unlatch the cylinder ( S&W-Push & Colt-Pull).

 

[sgt127]

It's not an issue. If it's what you practice with regularly. Much the same as walking into your bedroom and your hand flips on the light switch. Jumping in your car and the key goes right into the ignition.

I carried a 1911 for the first 15 years of my cop career. I shot IPSC. Alot. I always shot with my thumb on top of the safety. That safety was fried into my brain.

We were then issued Glocks for the next 15 years. For many years, I swept off the imaginary thumb safety on my Glock.

I retired and picked up another cop job and went back to the 1911. It's not quite as natural, yet. So, I've been practicing more until its re wired into my brain.

I even got a 60 degree safety for my AR so the manual of arms is almost the same.

 

[ATLDave]

I see a lot of folks in USPSA who switch from Glocks or other safety-less designs to 1911/2011/CZ/Tanfo guns have trouble for a month or so messing up the safety under duress... sometimes on the draw, sometimes during/after reloads or clearing a jam. They're inevitably the folks who are resistant to riding the safety. Once they figure that out and burn it in with a few hundred reps, it becomes a total non-issue.

 

[Zach S]

I've never had an issue with "forgetting" the safety on a 1911. It gets swiped off on the draw, and my thumb sits on top of it until I'm reholstering.

However, as a result of my high-thumb grip, my Glock doesn't reliably slide-lock on empty, and the Sigs I've shot never slide-lock on empty.

 

[Old Dog]

Not only on 1911s... I would like to know: anyone ever forgets to disengage the safety when drawing a gun with a 1911-type frame mounted safety? I'm not talking about those clumsy backward-working, stiff-as-hell, slide mounted contraptions found on several guns, but of proper safeties, ergonomically designed.

Does anyone know about incidents where a LEO or other professional got killed because of the safety on a SA cocked-and-locked gun (getting "confused" by the complexity of that lever, or forgetting about it, or fumbling helplessly, or whatever)?

I'm asking because I often read statements to the effect that a safety on a pistol "may confuse the shooter". Since I can't remember having ever been confused by the safety on my rifle, or my 1911, even under stress, I always wondered about that argument.

Nope. Never.

 

[JohnBiltz]

The vast majority of gun owners have never drawn from a holster and fired a live round. The vast majority of gun owners have not fired a round this year and its December. The vast majority of gun owners have not practiced a draw stroke this year either.

It is very difficult to find a place where you can draw and fire a weapon. Most ranges will not allow you to do it because of safety. You can say that is stupid but last week at the range the table in front of me had a large caliber bullet hole in it. It was not until I started taking lessons that I had ever drew and fired. I had practiced my draw stroke at home and I shoot a fair bit but I had never had a chance to put the tow together.

 

[Hangingrock]

The vast majority of gun owners have never drawn from a holster and fired a live round. The vast majority of gun owners have not fired a round this year and its December. The vast majority of gun owners have not practiced a draw stroke this year either.

I would say there is a lot of truth in that statement.

 

[cfullgraf]

I see a lot of folks in USPSA who switch from Glocks or other safety-less designs to 1911/2011/CZ/Tanfo guns have trouble for a month or so messing up the safety under duress... sometimes on the draw, sometimes during/after reloads or clearing a jam. They're inevitably the folks who are resistant to riding the safety. Once they figure that out and burn it in with a few hundred reps, it becomes a total non-issue.

I know this is off topic a bit, but taking awhile to readjust ones habits is not limited to just disengaging the safety on a handgun.

I started shooting skeet with a pump gun then moved on to compete with an over/under. Once in a while, I drag out the pump to keep myself acquainted with the gun for critter duty on the farm. Boy, it just never fires the "second barrel" on doubles.

It takes me about a round of skeet to get back into the groove of cycling the pump on doubles. Even then, some doubles are not pretty.

It takes a fair amount of practice to get permanent changes in muscle memories and habits.

 

[Kano383]

The vast majority of gun owners have never drawn from a holster and fired a live round. The vast majority of gun owners have not fired a round this year and its December. The vast majority of gun owners have not practiced a draw stroke this year either.

It is very difficult to find a place where you can draw and fire a weapon. Most ranges will not allow you to do it because of safety. You can say that is stupid but last week at the range the table in front of me had a large caliber bullet hole in it. It was not until I started taking lessons that I had ever drew and fired. I had practiced my draw stroke at home and I shoot a fair bit but I had never had a chance to put the tow together.

That's a good point, and something I've noticed quite often with hunting clients. More than once I've been left wondering how someone would spend thousands of dollars on a Safari, and skimp spending a few hundreds to train with his rifle before to come over...

Another thing is that too many gun owners reason like if they were in the SEAL, or some SWAT team, or undercover DEA agents, whereas an honest assessment of the threat they are facing would lead to reconsider the wisdom of carrying a firearm that is permanently on Red Alert, for someone who is definitely NOT permanently on Red Alert.

Because most of the accidents due to a particular handgun setup stem from a momentary lapse of attention - or general carelessness. Human beings are noticeably poor at perfection, even highly trained ones...

 

[Art Eatman]

Shot a 1911 for the first time when I was maybe 13. Seemed simple enough. Bought my first 1911 years later. Shot it a bunch; never a problem. Got into IPSC in 1980. Lotsa fun, back in those "pre-gamey" years. I even figured out how to do a trigger job, install better sights and polish the feed ramp. No big deal.

Anybody has problems with a 1911 should probably wear loafers or zip-up boots. Tying laces would be outside their skillset.

 

[ny32182]

I see a lot of folks in USPSA who switch from Glocks or other safety-less designs to 1911/2011/CZ/Tanfo guns have trouble for a month or so messing up the safety under duress... sometimes on the draw, sometimes during/after reloads or clearing a jam. They're inevitably the folks who are resistant to riding the safety. Once they figure that out and burn it in with a few hundred reps, it becomes a total non-issue.

This was me...
As someone who shot 99% double action in my life, for my 2.5 month stint in Limited, yeah, there was a lot of dryfire up front to get a couple things in the grip focused: 1) getting the thumb in exactly the right spot on the initial grip, and 2) making sure to not sweep off the safety early, and 3) learning that the first round is actually single action and you can't prep the trigger in the way you might be accustomed to doing so.

So as a guy coming from a DA or striker gun, I definitely consider it an adjustment and probably would require another solid week of dryfire at least if I wanted to shoot limited again.

 

[ATLDave]

Ah, I've been waiting for the big recap on how your excursion into LTD went!

You can get away with #2, but not #2 and #3 simultaneously!

 

[shooter1]

You'll notice that this only became an issue after the plastic guns got popular. They marketed to the lowest common denominator of the shooting community (grunt, point, click, bang, grunt) and suddenly everything else became "too complex".

Reality check. the "fine motor skills" argument is bunk. Shooting, in it's entirety, is fine motor skill. Seventy years ago 18 year old kids with sixth grade educations were handed M-1's and 1911's. Suddenly that handgun is too mechanically complex for you? All this talk of how many rounds downrange before you carry a gun, but you still might forget a safety? Your training time was wasted, as well as your ammo. This is not directed to any particular participant in this conversation, but these are the comments that get thrown around all the time. They are idiocy. If you carry a handgun with a safety, train to use it. After all, carrying handguns WITHOUT safeties has ingrained the habit in a whole generation of shooters to ignore them and find them "complicated".

We're never going back to the moon, folks. The men who invented the Atlas rocket are gone, and the current crop are baffled by a lever operated by the thumb.

So well said, sir!
str1

 

[45_auto]

If you carry a handgun with a safety, train to use it.

That's a great idea and covers the 1% of handgun carriers who actually train. What do you suggest for the other 99%?

 

[JTQ]

That's a great idea and covers the 1% of handgun carriers who actually train. What do you suggest for the other 99%?

Don't have a "carry rotation" where on Monday you carry a G17, on Tuesday a P226, Wednesday CZ75, Thursday M&P9, Friday HK USP, Saturday a Python, Sunday a 1911.

If all (it doesn't have to only, but mostly) you ever handle is a 1911 (or Hi-Power), and you get a full firing grip when you place your hand on the gun in the holster, I still think you're more likely to forget to pull the trigger than forget to work the thumb safety.

 

[Jimster]

^^^Agreed^^^. All I ever carry is my 1911.

 

[gc70]

That's a great idea and covers the 1% of handgun carriers who actually train. What do you suggest for the other 99%?

Prayer ... along with careful observation or avoidance when possible.

 

[ATLDave]

If all (it doesn't have to only, but mostly) you ever handle is a 1911 (or Hi-Power), and you get a full firing grip when you place your hand on the gun in the holster, I still think you're more likely to forget to pull the trigger than forget to work the thumb safety.

I agree with that sentiment, but the list of guns with compatible controls is much longer than those two. Really, any frame-mounted, down-to-fire safety will work. So non-decocker CZ's fit. So do most Tanfoglio/Witness guns imported in the last 15 years. Some H&K's have that safety configuration as an option. You can get it on a striker-fired gun with a S&W M&P. Heck, there are even SAO Sig guns that use that arrangement. A Browning Buckmark if you prefer rimfire.

One can shoot a wide range of semi-autos and never touch a gun without a JMB-style safety.

 

[Kano383]

That's a great idea and covers the 1% of handgun carriers who actually train. What do you suggest for the other 99%?

For those who don't train and don't really understand handguns, I suggest that they stay very far away from things without a safety or long heavy pull, this will avoid toddlers putting their hands in mommy's handbag and shooting her with the gun she's been advised to buy "because it's so simple, no levers to confuse you", or keep guys from blowing their pecker away because they tucked a "safe and simple" handgun in their waistband...

Arguing that something is better because it's simple and "not confusing", while saying that the same simple thing needs a thorough understanding of its condition, and your full and unconditional attention in order to keep-it-safe-you-moron, is a bit of a contradiction... Or am I missing something?

 

[1911 guy]

Let me get this straight. If someone is too lazy, unmotivated or lacks the common sense to avail themselves of the training aids available, it's the guns fault because it has a safety. Because a small level flipped off with the thumb on the drawstroke is too complex for the average human being. Gotcha.

I mentioned this thread to my father who carries a Springfield XD. He laughed so hard at you guys he shot coffee out of his nose.

But I have a theory on why this mentality is so prevalent. Few today, relative to the general population and even fewer compared to when many of the most popular handguns were developed, have much mechanical ability or understanding. As a society, "other people" change our oil, fix our broken things and make the gadgets we use. Most people just lack practical understanding of how things, including guns, work. So simplicity of operation is sought. Point and click interface, if you will. Couple that with a market where many shooters have never owned a pistol with a safety so it's a completely foreign concept. Heck, we can't be bothered to look in our rear view mirrors anymore, so cars come with cameras and buzzers in the bumpers.

 

[RX-79G]

Let me get this straight. If someone is too lazy, unmotivated or lacks the common sense to avail themselves of the training aids available, it's the guns fault because it has a safety. Because a small level flipped off with the thumb on the drawstroke is too complex for the average human being. Gotcha.

From what I've seen, it is generally that people get the timing off when they are in a rush and try to push the safety down when they are already pulling the trigger. I doubt they are seriously unable to perform these actions under normal circumstances, but throw in the excitement of a competition or the stress of a real shooting and things don't go as planned.

That doesn't make it "the gun's fault" any more than it's the cars fault if you grind a gear on a manual transmission - but you can't grind an automatic transmission.

The problem isn't that there isn't training, its that there is no standards. It is very easy to end up believing that have reached a sufficient skill level to not monkey things up, only to discover you were wrong. IDPA helps people figure this out to an extent, but the most hopped up competitor is still not pumping adrenaline like a he would in a real fight.

It makes the case for avoiding systems that require sequential actions to fire.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Let me get this straight, because this seems to be the context I'm getting here, your gun is superior because it has an extra step getting it into operation? You possess superior gun handling skills because you have not one but two devices to keep you from firing it accidentally? Let's make this clear, 1911s were never the most popular type of handgun. Revolvers were until the 80s. Point and shoot has always been the popular choice.

 

[1911 guy]

Quote:
Let me get this straight, because this seems to be the context I'm getting here, your gun is superior because it has an extra step getting it into operation? You possess superior gun handling skills because you have not one but two devices to keep you from firing it accidentally?

No. I am pointing out that complaining about a safety is the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Every day people use rifles and shotguns with safeties. We move them on and off as needed, often without much conscious thought. See bird, swing shotgun and disengage safety in smooth motion. See deer, finger goes to safety. But somehow handguns are confusing if they have a safety? I do not understand the problem.

Quote:
Let's make this clear, 1911s were never the most popular type of handgun. Revolvers were until the 80s. Point and shoot has always been the popular choice.

The most popular handguns with safeties, autoloaders, were the 1911 and BHP for decades, mainly because they were the only two common choices. It wasn't until the seventies, if memory serves, that many other autoloaders were readily available. Going back to revolvers, if someone forget to thumb back the hammer on a single action, is that the guns fault for having an extra step? Or is that the fault of the shooter for not understanding the handgun and not being familiar enough with it's operation?

 

[RX-79G]

The most popular handguns with safeties, autoloaders, were the 1911 and BHP for decades, mainly because they were the only two common choices.

In those calibers in the US, maybe. But Walthers were not uncommon, and .380 hammerless Colts were extremely popular for much of the first half of the century.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Your being disingenuous, I'm sure there were a few single action guns but most people were carrying double action revolvers for serious work in the USA. Cops were carrying double action revolvers. Shooting competitions until the 60s were dominated by double action revolvers because 1911s were not very accurate. Then people started making them accurate for competition and they were not very reliable as people started to try to improve on John Browning. By the 80s 1911s were very hit and miss on reliability and it was a good idea to know a very good gun smith particularly if you wanted to fire JHP. In the 80s the wonder 9s came in almost all DA/SA and began to dominate the police market. Glock came in late to this pushed into dominate market share. In the last 30 years or so they seem to have figured it out pretty well. But the fact remains that in the USA most people have never wanted safeties on their self defense handguns and a lot more people hunted back then than they do now. DA revolvers, then DA/SA autos then Glock type triggers. The SA with a safety has never been that popular with gun owners.

Quote:
Let me get this straight, because this seems to be the context I'm getting here, your gun is superior because it has an extra step getting it into operation? You possess superior gun handling skills because you have not one but two devices to keep you from firing it accidentally?

No. I am pointing out that complaining about a safety is the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Every day people use rifles and shotguns with safeties. We move them on and off as needed, often without much conscious thought. See bird, swing shotgun and disengage safety in smooth motion. See deer, finger goes to safety. But somehow handguns are confusing if they have a safety? I do not understand the problem.

Quote:
Let's make this clear, 1911s were never the most popular type of handgun. Revolvers were until the 80s. Point and shoot has always been the popular choice.

The most popular handguns with safeties, autoloaders, were the 1911 and BHP for decades, mainly because they were the only two common choices. It wasn't until the seventies, if memory serves, that many other autoloaders were readily available. Going back to revolvers, if someone forget to thumb back the hammer on a single action, is that the guns fault for having an extra step? Or is that the fault of the shooter for not understanding the handgun and not being familiar enough with it's operation?