30-30 Lever vs Wondernine for Homedefense? (over penetration not an issue)
- Thread starter cleetus03
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wasnt it proven to be harder to take a rifle away then a handgun? All that nice long hardwood stock to hold onto and help direct the muzzle into a fools face unlike 6 inches of grip on a handgun?
any 150 gr full power hollowpoint from a 30-30 that hits anywhere in the rib cage is going to do the job. Your gaurunteed to have that nice bullet expand, and make a gallon of jello like material from what was once body tissue belonging to what would have been "johnny/judy home invader"
defending the homestead is just like hunting varmints. You need to take enough gun to drop the varmint in its tracks. if your 22 cant drop a woodchuck or bunny in its tracks, get something that will. If you cant shoot aim a varmint type gun well but are an old testament type of vengeful god upon varmints with a .410 loaded with 7.5 shot, use THAT.
any 150 gr full power hollowpoint from a 30-30 that hits anywhere in the rib cage is going to do the job. Your gaurunteed to have that nice bullet expand, and make a gallon of jello like material from what was once body tissue belonging to what would have been "johnny/judy home invader"
defending the homestead is just like hunting varmints. You need to take enough gun to drop the varmint in its tracks. if your 22 cant drop a woodchuck or bunny in its tracks, get something that will. If you cant shoot aim a varmint type gun well but are an old testament type of vengeful god upon varmints with a .410 loaded with 7.5 shot, use THAT.
southwest1
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Shotgun is the superior HD weapon
In my opinion, you need to think through the situation. Most likely you will be intruded upon in the late night / early morning. You won't be wide awake, rather you will be slow and groogy.
So in that scenario, considering the most folks live in the city with loved ones in the same home and neighbors all around, can you tell me with a straight face that shooting (while groogy) a 9mm or 30/30 or any other high velocity projectile is safe in terms of collateral damage ?
A shotgun you simply point in the general direction. If you miss, most of the shot (assuming normal loads) will be in the wall not your in your family or in your neighbors.
Plus the sound of a pump action shotun in itself is a deterrent. Listen to the policemen, they know of what they speak.
PS Any gun inside will be loud. The alternative may be perpetual silence.
In my opinion, you need to think through the situation. Most likely you will be intruded upon in the late night / early morning. You won't be wide awake, rather you will be slow and groogy.
So in that scenario, considering the most folks live in the city with loved ones in the same home and neighbors all around, can you tell me with a straight face that shooting (while groogy) a 9mm or 30/30 or any other high velocity projectile is safe in terms of collateral damage ?
A shotgun you simply point in the general direction. If you miss, most of the shot (assuming normal loads) will be in the wall not your in your family or in your neighbors.
Plus the sound of a pump action shotun in itself is a deterrent. Listen to the policemen, they know of what they speak.
PS Any gun inside will be loud. The alternative may be perpetual silence.
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JImbothefiveth
Member
I'm not saying it won't, it's just that people are sometimes shot and don't stop with one shot and/or don't stop immediately.
Well, I was comparing to the standard 870 stock, so that does make a difference.
It's more powerful than pretty much anything issued to fighting troops, though I'm not sure about immediately. Seeing as how deer will run for a while, and there are accounts of cops being hit multiple times with 7.62x39 without even stopping (though it was FMJ, not hollowpoints), I'd shoot until the threat is stopped.
It would probably be better than the 9mm is my guess, and if the theory of "hydrostatic shock" is true that might be another advantage for it. You can probably shoot a rifle better than a handgun, and make COM shots easier.
Maybe a semi-auto shotgun would be good then?
Keep in mind I have not combat experiance whatsoever, I'm just going by what I've read and a bit of theory.
Way more energy. .270 is based on the .30-06.
So in that scenario, considering the most folks live in the city with loved ones in the same home and neighbors all around,
You still need to aim with a shotgun, especially at short ranges because the shot will have less of a pattern.
Though according to the box-o-truth, shotguns are pretty good compared to the alternatives, buckshot will still go through some walls.
Finally, an alarm system is probably a good idea. Get a full alarm system, and then some inexpensive motion detector and door or window open alarms in case the power fails in the main alarm system or someone cuts it. Might take away the need to clear the house.
They might have bayonets on their's though. Then again, those who don't have them and law enforcement agencies which don't still use them.
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RevolvingCylinder
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I think you answered your own question.
This thread was just a hypothetical question for a situation that has the lowest odds of ever happening. The majority of questions on this forum are hypothetical, whether it be self defense, zombie invasions, SHTF, and so on!
Its just like talking guns with a group of friends except on here its 1000's of friends. Lets face it, the majority of us use statistics and opinions from others to make decisions regarding defense. A smaller majority may have real life experience to base decisions. But I think it's fair to say were all in search for the holy grail of firearms to use for self or home defense.
Some of us think we got it figured it out, that 1 gun that can do it all. Some of us have several firearms to use for an array of potential but all likely rare situations.
That's why I love THR, you can find never ending amounts of opinion, support, advise, etc here. And although we know our imagination pushes us into preparing for situations that are far to almost impossible from happening, were prepared to tackle it head on nonetheless.
LOL, Could any of yall imagine if THR created a nationwide militia out of its members. I think we could rival any Private contractor org or even government bodies, dare i say, in the event of national crisis!
Its just like talking guns with a group of friends except on here its 1000's of friends. Lets face it, the majority of us use statistics and opinions from others to make decisions regarding defense. A smaller majority may have real life experience to base decisions. But I think it's fair to say were all in search for the holy grail of firearms to use for self or home defense.
Some of us think we got it figured it out, that 1 gun that can do it all. Some of us have several firearms to use for an array of potential but all likely rare situations.
That's why I love THR, you can find never ending amounts of opinion, support, advise, etc here. And although we know our imagination pushes us into preparing for situations that are far to almost impossible from happening, were prepared to tackle it head on nonetheless.
LOL, Could any of yall imagine if THR created a nationwide militia out of its members. I think we could rival any Private contractor org or even government bodies, dare i say, in the event of national crisis!
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RC was on the money.
Any SP 150-grain will be fine. If you were buying dedicated defensive ammunition, I'd probably get hollow points, if you could find them, but really any of the lighter hunting loads will do the job.
If you had time, having both would be excellent. Anyone who protests that a shoulder arm is easy to have taken from you needs better training, honestly. (It's hard for me to think of a way to say that less bluntly, and since it involves people's lives, I'd rather say it than let it pass uncontested.) One important thing to remember about law enforcement, is that they have a duty to (1) enforce the law, and (2) use the minimum amount of force possible. Citizens do not have these duties, so attempting to extrapolate what will work best for the armed citizen from police fatalities is silly.
It's not a "wonder nine", but my home defense combination right now is a lever gun with hollow points and a 9x19mm with 124-grain Gold Dots, too.
The 9mm is my bedstand gun, and the lever can be quickly accessed. If I have time, I will always get the carbine.
If you can use the lever-action well, there is absolutely no need for a 12 gauge for defense. Some folks would argue that a good lever-action in a hunting caliber is superior to a semi-automatic carbine in a lighter caliber. ( I think either one will work just fine for most folks, and I haven't troubled myself to get my AR carbine out of storage for HD duties in my current domicile. I actually do think the AR is a slightly better choice in general, but not if the user has a lot more experience with the lever gun.)
I know a bit about house-clearing. I don't know anyone (troop/unit) who does it with a fixed bayonet. (I'm sure there's somebody, but there's just no need for the bayonet.)
The 7.x62x39mm's reputation as a poor stopper resulted from hits by FMJ. The wound profile from expanding .308 ammunition is considerably different.
One test of 170-grain 30-30 SP had the bullet stop in the 6th water-filled jug. This is (IMO) just slightly deep, but a 150-grain SP or any HP should provide ideal defensive performance.
I believe a single good hit with the .30 will be at least as effective as two hits from a 9x19mm. This means a single good hit should stop a human threat, but there are almost always special cases. You might meet someone so coked up on meth that shock does not take over for several minutes, so be prepared to fire again, even with the .30. (This is where having a backup weapon would be appreciated, should you face several drugged-up threats.)
Of course waiting for police assistance will be the preferred tactic, but I understand response time may be slow because of your location. It's good that you're thinking out your responses ahead of time. If you haven't already, it's probably a good idea to try to make your building less accessible to casual intrusion.
Good luck, and practice with whatever you choose.
John
Any SP 150-grain will be fine. If you were buying dedicated defensive ammunition, I'd probably get hollow points, if you could find them, but really any of the lighter hunting loads will do the job.
If you had time, having both would be excellent. Anyone who protests that a shoulder arm is easy to have taken from you needs better training, honestly. (It's hard for me to think of a way to say that less bluntly, and since it involves people's lives, I'd rather say it than let it pass uncontested.) One important thing to remember about law enforcement, is that they have a duty to (1) enforce the law, and (2) use the minimum amount of force possible. Citizens do not have these duties, so attempting to extrapolate what will work best for the armed citizen from police fatalities is silly.
It's not a "wonder nine", but my home defense combination right now is a lever gun with hollow points and a 9x19mm with 124-grain Gold Dots, too.
The 9mm is my bedstand gun, and the lever can be quickly accessed. If I have time, I will always get the carbine.If you can use the lever-action well, there is absolutely no need for a 12 gauge for defense. Some folks would argue that a good lever-action in a hunting caliber is superior to a semi-automatic carbine in a lighter caliber. ( I think either one will work just fine for most folks, and I haven't troubled myself to get my AR carbine out of storage for HD duties in my current domicile. I actually do think the AR is a slightly better choice in general, but not if the user has a lot more experience with the lever gun.)
I know a bit about house-clearing. I don't know anyone (troop/unit) who does it with a fixed bayonet. (I'm sure there's somebody, but there's just no need for the bayonet.)
The 7.x62x39mm's reputation as a poor stopper resulted from hits by FMJ. The wound profile from expanding .308 ammunition is considerably different.
One test of 170-grain 30-30 SP had the bullet stop in the 6th water-filled jug. This is (IMO) just slightly deep, but a 150-grain SP or any HP should provide ideal defensive performance.
I believe a single good hit with the .30 will be at least as effective as two hits from a 9x19mm. This means a single good hit should stop a human threat, but there are almost always special cases. You might meet someone so coked up on meth that shock does not take over for several minutes, so be prepared to fire again, even with the .30. (This is where having a backup weapon would be appreciated, should you face several drugged-up threats.)
Of course waiting for police assistance will be the preferred tactic, but I understand response time may be slow because of your location. It's good that you're thinking out your responses ahead of time. If you haven't already, it's probably a good idea to try to make your building less accessible to casual intrusion.
Good luck, and practice with whatever you choose.
John
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moooose102
Member
Winchester 30-30 hollow point ammo! the effect of this is simply AWESOME! i shot a young deer with it several years back through the chest cavity. i literally could put my hand in the exit wound! it dropped like a ton of bricks, instantly. the deer was about 50 yards away. i can not even phatom a human shot with this. there is no doubt in my mind that any 1/2 way decent shot should stop any attacker post haste.
There are arguments for both the 30-30 and a 9mm pistol, but your rural setting may give the nod to the lever gun.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Purely hardware oriented questions are not well suited to S&T- I'm moving this to General, where it should get more attention.
lpl
lpl
telomerase
Member
Any legal shotgun is far longer than a 16" barrel lever, M4, AK, PCC, etc. Any gun can take a folding stock, so the "I'll use my pistol-grip-only and shoot from the hip" is not the real comparison.
The shotgun can't penetrate even low-grade body armor (anyone notice that the latest fruitcake shooting, the one that shot a few police, was by a guy wearing armor?) Follow-up shots are faster from the rifle.
If there's a family member to shoot around, the rifle would be better.
If you want to limit penetration, 55-grain .223 will penetrate less than 00 buck... and there won't be 12-15 of them wandering the neighborhood.
Holy cow. Maybe some people should stick to spears to limit collateral damage
Like JShirley mentioned, the 30-30 lever action would be a great defensive weapon in a home invasion or even a SHTF scenario. I would have a backup gun, no doubts, but a 30-30 cartridge has all the power you need to drop two legged critters that are up to no good in your home.
Those of you arguing that hanging onto a rifle during a struggle for control of the weapon is easier are missing the point. There is far less change of the struggle occurring in the first place with a handgun because it's a smaller and less inviting target for a grab attempt.
As for the question as to whether a 30-30 will kill a man, um... I'm going to have guess yes on that one. ANY center-fire rifle will be superior to the vast majority of handguns when it comes to power. The question becomes which is more useful under the circumstances?
As for the question as to whether a 30-30 will kill a man, um... I'm going to have guess yes on that one. ANY center-fire rifle will be superior to the vast majority of handguns when it comes to power. The question becomes which is more useful under the circumstances?
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Deanimator
Member
In MY home, a non-NFA long gun of any kind is pretty much worthless. It's too small, too cramped, and way too full of things for a long gun to hang up on. Your home may be entirely different, and entirely appropriate for a long gun.
It depends upon where you live.
It depends upon where you live.
runrabbitrun
member
I also agree with this.
You need one 'go to gun' at the ready at all times.
Preferably right there in your night stand, or as close as possible.
If in the middle of the night my dog goes off in the living room.
The first reaction would be to grab my 'go to' 9 mm hand gun.
The evil long black guns can come out to play
if the need arises.
This is untrue. A handgun held in a ready to fire (Weaver or Isosceles or similar) stance will extend about the same amount as a rifle held in a firing stance. In fact, I compared the length of extension of my two currently dedicated HD arms 30 seconds ago. Because I, like most people, take a slightly dominant-side back stance with most rifles, the handgun in firing position actually extends about 2" further out.
Easy. As has already been said, the handgun is a reactive weapon to fight your way to your longarm. While I believe this statement, I am also repeating the words of the most respected firearms instructor alive. Feel free to argue with him.
John
jerkface11
Member
Shoot someone in the arm at close range with a .30-30 and they'll be calling him stumpy for the rest of his life. Use a 9mm and he'll bleed a lot.
JS- I am not incorrect since the PROPER technique when moving in situations where physical assault for control of the weapon may occur involves holding the pistol close to your body, not holding it out at arm's length. This is basic weapon retention methodology.
AKElroy
Member
I have a model 94 .30-30, and I shoot it really well. I have never considered it for HD until this post; I suppose if I lived in the middle of nowhere & were forced to choose to keep either the Tuarus 9mm or the Marlin next to the bed, it would probably be the Marlin.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
I wonder why the people who insist that a handgun is the best choice for HD are usually the same people who think clearing their home solo is a good idea...
lpl
lpl
DFW1911
Member
+1. I use a coach gun as my primary HD weapon, backed by a Glock .40
I know many will say that a double barrel doesn't have enough capacity / it too slow to reload / is outdated, etc, but putting in the training I have I'd suggest it is quite a formidable weapon.
I certainly would not want to be on the business end of a 12 gauge coach gun being wielded by someone who knows what they're doing.
Stay safe,
DFW1911
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Dark Skies
Member
I think just hearing the action of a lever rifle will be enough to make most creeps quietly tip-toe back out of the house. If it doesn't then a 30-30 round will provide plenty of trauma to the recepient. If you hit an arm or leg the bullet is going to shatter the bone and most likely as not will have them pleading for medical assistance rather than press home the attack. Too much is made about stopping power - once you get to sizeable calibres the impact will render most scumbags weeping like a girl or dead.
I've never had to struggle with someone in my living room with a firearm but I'm betting a good grip with the rifle canted at the hip probably doesn't present much more of a grabable target than a pistol held in a combat style over the space of a room. Personally I think you should stick with whatever you're most familiar with and just practice.
I've never had to struggle with someone in my living room with a firearm but I'm betting a good grip with the rifle canted at the hip probably doesn't present much more of a grabable target than a pistol held in a combat style over the space of a room. Personally I think you should stick with whatever you're most familiar with and just practice.
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