30-30 Lever vs Wondernine for Homedefense? (over penetration not an issue)

[Deanimator]

I wonder why the people who insist that a handgun is the best choice for HD are usually the same people who think clearing their home solo is a good idea...

In my home, "clearing" it and seeing if there's a problem AT ALL are the same thing.

I guarantee you that if I start holing up in the bedroom and calling the cops every time I hear a noise, if something DOES happen, their response time is going to be measured with a calendar.

You've never seen my home and I've never seen yours. In MY home, a long gun is next to worthless. In yours it might be a wonderful solution.

I'm always baffled by people who know what the tactical solution to my problems are without having one iota of even a glimmer of an idea of what the tactical situation is. The Army taught me to assess the essential elements of friendly information for a reason.

 

[Ed Ames]

Isn's this another question where the right answer is "both"?

My take:

For fighting in any home (including, as far as I can tell, any house you can walk through without using your hands... I've seen some you couldn't and of course people live on boats and the like but if you can get from the bathroom to the front door without gymnastics you can bring a long gun) a hardwood stock, metal buttplate, and two-hand grip will beat a pistol any day. I'm not knocking plastic either but in close a solid long gun has advantages.

Reality check: For every in-home firefight there are 10,000 cases of "something iffy is happening, I should see what". For most of those (9,990?) any gun is useless (unless you are planning to shoot the tree branch that just started scraping your roof, pipe that is leaking, or whatever other harmless thing put you on guard) and in almost all (excluding the 1 in 10,000) cases any gun will do.

Yeah, I made up those numbers. Substitute your own as circumstances (local crime rate, sspecial risks, etc) dictate.

It is prudent to plan for the 1 in 1000 because the potential consequences are so dire. It is also prudent to plan for the 1 in 10,000... heck, planning for 1 in 100,000 events is great too if you have the resources... but start with the basics.

What you want in most cases is something that won't get in your way. Something you can put aside without loss of control. A pistol in a holster (belt, pocket, whatever) fits the bill beautifully. Why wouldn't you want that?

As for clearing a house yourself...of course you should identify the level and type of event you are encountering before calling on outsiders. That isn't clearing a house because, again, most of the time there is nothing to clear. It can range from a walk-through of your house and finding nothing to seeing a door off the hinges and calling the cops.

The only thing that skews things away from handguns as a starting point is your resource limit. If you have limited resources and other uses for a long gun (real uses) that should be considered. If you will hunt deer a 30-30 or 12ga makes sense as a way to save money ($400 for a rifle vs $800 for both). If you will also hunt birds thre 12ga will do everything ($300 for a shotgun vs $1100 for all three). There is nothing wrong with that, as long as you understand what you are trading off.

Handguns are the most practical defensive weapons for average citizens, period. They aren't the best weapons by a long shot, but they are the most practical.

 

[DFW1911]

I'm always baffled by people who know what the tactical solution to my problems are without having one iota of even a glimmer of an idea of what the tactical situation is.

Very good point indeed.

 

[JShirley]

Handguns are the most practical reactive defensive weapons for average citizens, period.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Ed Ames]

Hah... I would say defense implies reaction to a threat so "reactive defensive" is redundant...but that's just me.

 

[JShirley]

IOW, if you knew there was going to be trouble- and had no choice but to be there- a handgun would not be what you had.

Handguns are easily concealed or carried, hands-free on your person. This is why they are the best reactive defensive tools.

J

 

[Kleanbore]

For external use only, IMHO.

A .30-30 is a great gun--outside.

At a shooting range, ear protection is a must.

I cannot imagine shooting a .30-30 inside a house. Anyone without ear protection will not only not be able to hear anything afterward for a time, but will certainly suffer from noise-induced hearing loss permanently.

A friend of mine fired a Garand into a bullet stop in his basement one time using high-end ear protection. Some of the light bulbs were shattered, and the light from the others was reduced and diffused by heavy dust from the joists.

A .30-30 puts out quite a bit less energy, but I still wouldn't want to fire one indoors.

 

[Ed Ames]

Fair enough. I would say it's a matter of priorities and percentages. And semantics.

Practically speaking, most people won't find themselves in expected "fight or die" situations in their home (or other place they are likely to have a rifle)... so preparing for them, while good, should come AFTER the far more likely unexpected fight or die situation... and the pistol beats all for that.

 

[Deanimator]

For fighting in any home (including, as far as I can tell, any house you can walk through without using your hands... I've seen some you couldn't and of course people live on boats and the like but if you can get from the bathroom to the front door without gymnastics you can bring a long gun) a hardwood stock, metal buttplate, and two-hand grip will beat a pistol any day. I'm not knocking plastic either but in close a solid long gun has advantages.

BRINGING a weapon is not the same as EFFECTIVELY employing it. I could BRING a naginata or long bow from my bedroom to my livingroom. That's not the same as being able to effectively employ it to defend myself. Watch the movie "Hara Kiri" some time. In my home, I am effectively in the situation of the villain when he first encounters the hero and lets him go because he cannot EFFECTIVELY employ his sword in the specific tactical situation.

I've lived in places where a long gun would have been a GREAT tool. I don't happen to currently live in a place like that.

 

[qwert65]

I don't think a longgun is that unweidly in most homes, it is a prob with some corners/stairs. I have a 30-30 and I must admit I've never picked it up to go check on stuff excepting the time a tiger was on the loose(long story and I didn't have any slugs for my shottie)

I usually pick my 1911 but the only reason for that is that I can employ quickly in the WAY, WAY off chance I wake up to someone in my bedroom.
As far as retention I think It would be easier to hold on to a long gun, further I think a lever would be ideal if the worst happened and the BG was getting control of the weapon you can just pull the trigger. for him to fire it he will have to turn it around, realize its a lever, work the action, aim and fire. During this you can run or pull your sidearm.

Personally I don't use a longgun to check out stuff unless going outside but I think it's just personal preference.

 

[gallo]

The only reason I don't use a 30-30 for HD is that I live in the city. My 9 doesn't hold a candle to the marlin 336 I used to shoot at the ranch.

 

[Deanimator]

I don't think a longgun is that unweidly in most homes, it is a prob with some corners/stairs.

That's probably true in HOUSES. It's most definitely NOT true in my apartment. I couldn't get out of the bedroom with a long gun at the ready. It's simply not physically possible.

 

[Oro]

oops - redundant.

 

[Koos Custodiet]

Listen guys, I was just wondering if one 30-30 (150gr or 170gr soft point) shot center mass would drop a criminal immediately, god forbid I had to.

Until you've done it, you won't get it. Specifically, shoot the same target with a pistol and with a rifle.

Rifles are much much more powerful than handguns, that's just the way it is.

In silhouettes, my 357 (Astra, 180 grain cast bullet, around 800/900 fps) makes a nice *tink* sound on the rams at 200m, half the time. A .308 goes straight through the same ram.

Not that a 30-30 is a 308, but the principle is similar. 30-30 has about 50% extra mass at about twice the MV (can't be bothered to look it up) of a 9mm -- that's a lot of extra power.

Having said that, I keep the 30-30 (Marlin 336, 170 grain Sierra at 2300 fps) in the safe and the 357 revolver (Taurus 66, 125 grain XTP at 1400 fps) next to the bed.

Edit : having thought about it... at close range, the rifle bullet will go straight through the bad guy, maybe not damaging him much. Handgun bullets are designed to give their all rather quickly -- try shooting a silhouette chicken (50m) with a 125 grain XTP, chicken does not (always | reliably) go down (yea, I tried it You wanna shoot the bad guy at 100 yards or so, use the 30-30. At 100 inches or so, get a 357...

 

[Dark Skies]

In light of weieldability in the home I guess this boils down cleetus03's own circumstances - given it is he who's concerns we're discussing.

Someone mentioned undefended ears and noise issues. I have shot a .357 586 in the confines of an enclosed space and it is bloody loud (on a range) without ear defenders. Something you only want to do once. But I've also shot a Nagant under the same circumstances and the report was not quite as bad. I can only assume this was because the muzzle was that much further from me. Don't get me wrong - I don't do this often for giggles - it was out of curiosity. One shot fired in each case. I think under home defence circumstances noise is the last thing that you'd be concerned with.

 

[wrs840]

In the bedroom lockup I have a Remington 870 12ga with a modified-choke bird-barrel now loaded with full-power 00 buck, and a Marlin 336 in 35 Remington, (though I have and like two 30-30s too), for if the problem is a varmint outside. I have an eight-shot 12ga Mossberg 590 with "managed-recoil" 00 buck, a five-shot 20ga Moss 500 with #4 high-brass (wife's), both 18" bore-barrel, for if the threat is a BG on the porch, and a 9mm 5904 with 17-round mags, which would be my probable go-to if the threat is two-legged and already in the house. In any scenario, given time, my Smith 442 and two speed-strips will also be in my pocket.

I'm no tactical expert, but I guess what I'm saying is that I'm agreeing with Deanimator that IMO, the situation and the likely distance between you and the threat makes all the difference.

Les

 

[weisse52]

This seems to have slipped into the handgun vs long gun discussion instead of what the OP intended. Sounds like for him the 30-30 is the better tool.

"IN MY HOUSE" I have only my wife and myself to worry about. In the process of remodeling it just worked out that to get into our master bedroom you have to walk down a small hallway. If I thought that someone was truly in my house I would have my 870 out and pointed at the door, the wife would have dialed 911. If I had a short lever action that would be a good choice as well.

I am old enough and wise enough to not and try to "clear" my house. But, we do not have small kids or other people in different parts of our house. I have no reason to leave that room if someone was in the house.

Now, if we get a knock at the door I have a 1911 or 642 I take with me and the Great Dane to see what is going on. For me it is a matter of what tool I select to get the job done. You "can" use a framing hammer to drive tacks, but is better to use the right tool for the right environment and situation.

 

[JShirley]

at close range, the rifle bullet will go straight through the bad guy, maybe not damaging him much

No, it won't. There are links in a prior post of mine.

 

[Leanwolf]

KLEANBORE - "I cannot imagine shooting a .30-30 inside a house."

The report of a 12 gauge shotgun with #00 buck will be as loud.

Ain't gonna be any fun for your ears, no matter what.

L.W.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

I choose a .357 1894c to keep next to the primary HD piece, the remy 870. Of course if need be the 1911 will be clearing the way to the 870.

I think when it comes to lever guns for HD the 30-30 is nothing to sneeze at but the shorter oal and action of the pistol caliber lever carbine might give it a bit of an edge over the rifle inside the house. Depends on the situation, even with a 20" slug barrel on the 870 the carbine is shorter than the old pump.

 

[Firethorn]

I have to agree with the others that think a short lever action carbine in .30-30 would generally be HIGHLY effective in a self defense scenario.

I would simply use a high quality hunting bullet, I wouldn't worry about looking for hollowpoints or anything. Hunting softpoints are designed to expand as well, at rifle velocities you don't need a hollowpoint for expansion. They're highly effective at taking deer, a COM hit on a human will generally result in a human that isn't going anywhere.

Just remember that you don't want to let an invader get into hand to hand with you.

 

[PT1911]

I wonder why the people who insist that a handgun is the best choice for HD are usually the same people who think clearing their home solo is a good idea...

you are absolutely right... next time I hear a bump in the night, I will not investigate. I will grab my 1911 and huddle in the closet with my cell and call the cops....

big surprise when they come to find the cat knocked something off the counter.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Your 30/30 will GetRDone!

 

[heron]

Also too easy for an intruder to leap out of the dark and grab the barrel commencing a wrestling match for control of the gun.

Only if you offer them the opportunity. If you must clear the house, hold the gun low at your side when checking around corners, to keep it out of the reach of a potential attacker.

 

[wrs840]

Only if you offer them the opportunity. If you must clear the house, hold the gun low at your side when checking around corners, to keep it out of the reach of a potential attacker.

...Or the "Wondernine" in a two-hand grip, pulled tight to your sternum, pointed 25 degrees left (assuming right-handed shooter), at the floor about four feet in front of you. A rotate right, and natural tip-back at the waist, puts it in the gut of a grappling surprise attacker, and is very difficult for the BG to grab /deflect / interfere with from this ready-stance.

Les