30-30 Lever vs Wondernine for Homedefense? (over penetration not an issue)

[SaxonPig]

JS- I think a squad of soldiers clearing a building is a different matter than a homeowner checking out what went bump in the night.

I don't understand how anyone can even argue the point that a rifle most certainly is an easier target for a snatch attempt.

 

[scythefwd]

crebralfix,

"Both weapons require training an a variety of contexts to use effectively. The "unwieldy" nature of a rifle in the home simply means that poster has no idea what to do with a rifle. Obviously, no Marine would ever enter a building in Fallujah with an "unwieldy" M4 carbine."

They also wouldn't enter a house alone. One man breaches, then there is a buttload of marines in the house. When you are alone, clearing techniques are different vs. when you are with a 5 man squad that has a couple of m4's, possibly a SAW or 240G, and possibly another with a .203. They also have body armor, with sappy plates, and kevlar helmets. He rounds the corner, and you have to pick your shot and still worry about the other 5-6 guys coming through who are going to kill you if you shoot.

In your home, you aren't in body armor, you aren't wearing a brain bucket, and you don't have 5 guys covering your buttocks. Unless you are going through sideways or backwards, your gun is coming through a door way first. If BG is beside the door, it's a free head shot as you walk through.

 

[Blackbeard]

Personally, I'd say the issue is not stopping power, but follow up shots. I'd rather have the speed of a semi-auto than the power of your lever action. Are you worried that you'll have an encounter with armor-clad BGs?

 

[outerlimit]

I use a .30-30 as main home defense rifle. I use Hornady Leverrevolution 160gr. ammo. The .30-30's which are 20" and under are considered carbines. They are lighter and smaller than most rifles and just as easy to wield around the house as a 16" M4.

Backup is a .45acp.

I use Surefire Earpro Sonic Defenders to protect my hearing. I have a set on my nightstand. They are great because you can still hear what's going on around you.

 

[Deanimator]

I use a .30-30 as main home defense rifle. I use Hornady Leverrevolution 160gr. ammo. The .30-30's which are 20" and under are considered carbines. They are lighter and smaller than most rifles and just as easy to wield around the house as a 16" M4.

If a long gun were an appropriate choice at all in my home (It's not), I'd seriously consider one of the Cimarron 16" "Trapper" versions of their .44 Magnum Winchester '92 clone. They're light, handy, and powerful, but not too powerful. I don't know if they feed them well, but if they do, the 200gr. Blazer Gold Dot .44 Specials that I use in my 4" Model 29 for home defense would probably be very good.

 

[Schutzen]

30-30 VS Criminal; the 30-30 is more than adequate. The crowd here appears younger than I am, so let me reminisce. In my Midwestern youth, the 1950's, the patrol rifle for most of the police & sheriff's departments was the Winchester Model 94 in 30-30. It did the job then and it can still do the job today. The 30-30 is roughly half again more power full than the5.56MM; 1500 ft-lb’s vs. 1000 ft-lb’s of energy.

A 30-30 as a home defense firearm in a rural situation; YES, but with some qualifications.

First, have you organized your homestead in a defensive posture? Have you planted trees and shrubbery, erected fences, and place obstacles to limit or channel access to your home? A nice holly or osage orange shrub line surrounding the house will reasonably restrict access to the areas you leave open. In my area, large rocks flanking the lane (driveway) entrance are popular and are good places to camouflage lane gates or chains. On demand security lighting to illuminate the yard area. And a good outside dog that alerts you to intruders.

Second, Even in a rural area keep your doors locked. At the very least restrict access to one or two doors during the day and lock up at night.

The idea is to keep the intruders out of the house and in clear fire zones. The 30-30 is in it's element in that scenario. If intruders do gain access to your home the 30-30 is less advantageous, but still useful if you can retreat to an area where you have 10-15 of space between you and the intruder. Closer than that, I would choose the pistol.

Just the thoughts of an old man who has spent most of his life in the country.

 

[JShirley]

I don't understand how anyone can even argue the point that a rifle most certainly is an easier target for a snatch attempt.

"Easier" as in "easier to remove"? Hahahahaha! We can try that one all day long, if you like. I did notice you said attempt, so perhaps you mean attractive instead of easier, as in appears easier to snatch. Because it certainly is not easier to take away.

Depending on the force the BG gives you, you either step back and fire, or step forward and either punch (stab) or fire. Too easy. With a carbine, at least. Handgun is actually a bit more complicated...

I also don't see how anyone believes that having fewer or no people backing you up means you, the righteous defender, should use a less powerful arm to defend yourself. Amazing.

John

 

[Erik]

IMO defending long guns from gun grabs in confined places poses more challenges that defending handguns in confined spaces. Keep in mind that it is when you can't shoot them off the end of the gun that it gets relatively more complicated with long gun retention in confined spaces. Understand the problems, have solutions in mind to solve them, and be able to execute at least one solution.

Erik - Who favors long guns in the long guns vs. pistols debate, prefers to bring both, and to have friends with same whenever possible.

 

[gallo]

If the argument against the 30-30 is that it's susceptible to grabbing, then it can be said the same of a shotgun; yet, I don't see many people objecting to a 12 gauge.

I think the grabbing argument against a long arm is over rated, especially when applied to a carbine. But if that is truly a concern, keep a snubby as backup.

 

[outerlimit]

The 30-30 is roughly half again more power full than the5.56MM; 1500 ft-lb’s vs. 1000 ft-lb’s of energy.

Hornady leverrevolution is over 2,000ft/lb at the muzzle.

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_se...&category_id=617900860f0f136528b6f2d1f845cb05

Winchester Power Point Plus has similar energy figures.

Most 5.56/.223 is around 1,200ft/lb. at the muzzle if I recall correctly.

 

[scythefwd]

JShirley,
Don't know if your comment was in regards to mine, but I don't believe that a less powerful arm is called for, just that you use different tactics when clearing alone vs. with a squad. Personally, a .30-30 revolver in my mind would be ideal, but short of that (I'm saving, just ain't there yet) my HD guns are a .38 revolver, a 12 GA shotgun, and a 9mm semi. The reason for the hand guns is simple, they are easier to store beside the bed .

 

[Jefferson Herb]

There used to be a 125 gr hpfn for 30-30 that I used to load for varments ie saddle gun.If those are still available they should come apart at close quarters,and assure massive tissue damage and safe in a tube magazine.

 

[MK11]

Why make it a choice? Use both. Different tools for different situations.

 

[searcher451]

Both is good, for sure. Heck, a shotgun tops 'em both. But if forced to choose, given the parameters of the initial post, I'd take a Walther P88 with a full magazine over a lever-action rifle or carbine any day. I can move more rounds through the Walther far faster than I can with a lever-action ... today, tomorrow, next week, next month.

 

[Al Thompson]

Two good friends of mine ND'd a Marlin .30-30 in an apartment. Rang their ears, but both were functional. Noise is vastly overrated.

That .30-30 with plain old Remchester Wal-Mart ammo will be extremely effective - the closer the bad guy is, the more that JSP bullet will expand. It's a big (and eaisily disproven) myth that you can be "too close for the bullet to expand". For hunters, the issue is to have a bullet NOT overexpand at close range and still expand acceptably at long range. Luckily, people are not as thick as big deer, so the issue is sort of moot.

IMHO, the proper first response to most disarming attempts is to pull the trigger.

 

[rswartsell]

Trying to snatch a lever action out of someone's hands? You realize of course that the strong hand will be INSIDE THE LEVER LOOP?

 

[30.06]

Ammo ? Any standard 30.30 load will get the humanoid target stopped pronto .

At over two thousand feet per second , the hydrostatic shock transmitted throughout the target , will make up for any non-vital area hit .

The 30.30 will work .

The ninemillimeter may work .

May or Will ? Your choice .

 

[EHL]

The 30.30 will work .

The ninemillimeter may work .

May or Will ? Your choice .

An excellent point!

 

[dom1104]

wow.

I just dont know about you internet people.

I have been slowly convinced over the years that people on the internet have absolutly no real world experiance whatsoever.

Do NONE of you armchair commandoes go hunting ever?

" A rifle bullet will just pass right thru and a handgun bullet is designed.. blah blah blah"

Lemme clue you guys into something. When you are hunting, you want to drop whatever you are hunting fast and right now. Just like inside your home.

Bigger is better. Faster is better. and nobody takes a 9mm out to hunt deer if they had a choice of a rifle caliber.

The biggest, fastest bullet you can accurately shoot WILL put the deer down faster / better than a lighter slower one. This is pretty basic people.

a 375 H & H will put down the deer faster than a 22lr no matter if its 5 feet away or 100 yards away.

Trying to say a handgun is more effective than a long gun seems to me to be patently rediculous.


I think some of you should actually go kill and eat something, instead of imagining or relying on video games to let you know what a wound looks like and how living things react to being shot.


A Rifle is FAR easier to hit with than a pistol. Anyone who hunts will tell you that. A rifle puts the animal down far quicker.

And seriously. Does anyone really expect to be in a hand to hand combat with a long gun that some man-mountain has somehow grabbed onto? What is this the movies?


The advantage of a rifle is power. The advantage of a pistol is size and weight. thats it. period. if you need light and concealable, grab a pistol. But nobody hunts or goes to war selecting a pistol as their main weapon. ever. (Edit: Well some people DO hunt with handguns, but they do it for the extra challenge, and mostly because they think making hits with a rifle is TOO EASY.)

And if someone is in my house, its wartime.

 

[chuckusaret]

IMO the rifle is not for HD. I prefer the HD/Tactical shotgun backed up with a pistol. I use a Mossberg 500 12ga 20" barrel with a XD 40 backup.

 

[runrabbitrun]

I have three fire arms in my home at the moment.

An SKS with a folding stock.
A Marlin 60
And a Browning HP 9mm hand gun.

The two longs are on a gun rack, not loaded.
Mags for the SKS are in the ready in my bed room
to easily put that weapon into service, if needed.

The 9mm is at the ready at all times.
When I first got that SKS I thought this would be a great HD gun.
But after researching further (mostly here)
I've come to realize that to use this SKS as the indoor 'go to' gun,
would potentially put bystanders down range of my shots in harms way.

People have to assess their own environment and do what they think is best, I guess.

Just make sure when you shoot that
BIG rifle or begin the struggle over control with the BG that
no one in the next room (or next store) is anywhere down range as
those rounds can potentially penetrate walls and may even end up in the neighbor's kids head.

For those who have multiple options I must ask.
How many guns can you operate at one time effectively?
What if the BG is sneaky and can get to one of your alternates BEFORE you even know he's in the house?

Oh and why is it that LO doesn't carry long guns on their hip as opposed to handguns? lol

 

[cleetus03]

I wonder in the history of legitimate home defense where a long gun has been fired, if any innocentbystander or family member got shot from unintended over penetration?

 

[tom1200]

"Yeah, after consulting with some law enforcement buddies of mine, I'm just gonna buy a 12ga pump shotgun this week.

They said the 9mm was adequate, the 30-30 more than adequate, but a 12 gauge pump with 3" 00 Buck would be absolutely, positively devastating against an assailant. And they make several models which are capable of holding 8 shot shells. I also didn't realize that they could be bought used for so cheap either. So appreciate all the advise & opinions.

Commonsense told me the rifle is better than a handgun, and I should of remembered the definition of a shotgun is close quarter defense, perfect home protection!"



Shoot them center mass with a 9mm premium bullet - dead
Shoot them center mass with a 30-30 - dead
Shoot them center mass with a 12 ga - dead

Miss with any of them and you're likely the one to be dead.

You're more likely to miss with the shotgun since you won't bother to take careful aim thinking it's going to cover the whole room. The recoil of a 12 ga and muzzle blast indoors will deafen you and keep you from being able to take a followup shot.

Keep in mind we're not talking about a well trained SWAT team entering a house. We're talking about a homeowner who is half asleep having just woken up to some sound. He is likely not well trained and likely has never even shot that 12 ga indoors before.

I'm waiting for someone to say that just the sound of the 12 ga being racked will put terror into the gang bangers who broke into your house and make them run away.

 

[cleetus03]

You're more likely to miss with the shotgun since you won't bother to take careful aim thinking it's going to cover the whole room. The recoil of a 12 ga and muzzle blast indoors will deafen you and keep you from being able to take a followup shot.

I don't think so, I can point shoot my Marlin 336 from the hip or shoulder, and hit any target larger then a ft & under 25ft from me, and continue to do so with follow up shots.

It also didn't take me very long to master that ability. I think having a Daisy Red Ryder lever bb gun & point shooting cans from the hip & shoulder from the age of like 7 to like 14 helped me with that. Then doing the same thing with a .22lr continued to hone in the skills of point shooting from plinking 1000's of rds into targets.

If you can do that with a rifle it will be even easier to learn with a shotgun, especially if ya shoot skeet!

As with the deafening sound of a shotgun or rifle in the house deafening you and keeping you from continuing to shoot. I'm calling BULLSH*T on that potential factor. While hearing damage is possible, it is not a real time concern in the moment of firing a shot. Either your going to FIGHT OR FLIGHT in that moment.

 

[SaxonPig]

JS- Yes, amazing. Let's let it go at that.