357 Carbines

[Remington1911]

I have a Marlin 1894C in 357 Mag from the early 1980’s and it shoot accurately with jacketed bullets. It has a micro-groove barrel and I’ve never been able to get cast bullets to match the grouping of jacketed bullets. It’s not bad with cast bullets but jacketed bullets do better.

I bought an early 1890’s vintage Winchester 73 in 32-20 and liked the way it shot. It got me thinking about a Winchester/Miroku 73 n 357 Magnum.



I bought one and like BRatigan, mine shoots at least as well as my Marlin.

Mine is also about that vintage, and I have seen the same results. I would also say that you need to work the lever with some "gusto", or you will have issues.

As to how accurate it is, I can bang an 8" steel plate off hand till I get to shaky.....good enough for me. The smaller plates I can do if I rest the rifle on someone, but not sure if the short coming is my old eyeballs or the rifle. Seems if I can see it halfway good I can hit it.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Uh, yeah, I do and don't condescend me. You're not reading everything I'm writing. I clearly understand MOA, you don't understand what I'm saying and I'm tired of repeating myself. Read the following sentence three times and let it sink in before continuing.

Accuracy of the .22LR cartridge begins to unravel at 70-75yds.

I said that already. THAT is the difference. A .22LR rifle that shoots MOA at 50yds WILL NOT shoot MOA at 100yds. A .22LR rifle that shoots MOA at 100yds WILL NOT shoot MOA at 200yds. MOA doesn't change, it's the cartridge that loses accuracy as range increases. By your logic, the .22LR rifle that shoots 1" at 100yds, which is easily attained, will also shoot 10" at 1000yds. Which we know with absolute certainty is impossible. Why? Because people shoot the .22LR at that distance.

Again, this only applies to the .22LR. You essentially need a 3/4MOA rifle at 50yds to shoot MOA at 100yds. Yes, you need to shoot 3/8"@50yds to shoot 1"@100yds. You need a half MOA rifle at 50yds to shoot MOA at 200yds. Yes, you need 1/4"@50yds to shoot 2"@200yds. Why? Because the cartridge loses accuracy as range increases.

MOA has nothing to do with 22LR or any other cartridge for that matter. It's nothing more than a unit of measurement, like miles per hour or pounds per square inch.

By your logic, the .22LR rifle that shoots 1" at 100yds, which is easily attained, will also shoot 10" at 1000yds

Where on earth did you come up with that? I don't associate MOA with cartridges. If a rifle with the appropriate cartridge is capable of shooting 300 yds the MOA can be measured at that distance but it generally isn't because of external forces on a bullet that isn't part of measuring a rifles precision. Mostly, rifle MOA is measured at 100 yds because an inch is easy to remember and most rifles can effectively shoot that far. A 22LR should be measured at 50 yds because that's about it's effective range.

Why are you associating MOA with cartridges? MOA is a measurement of a rifles precision.

Your argument has more to do with mechanics (force, matter and motion) than a geometric like minutes of arc.

 

[CraigC]

It's nothing more than a unit of measurement, like miles per hour or pounds per square inch.

No kidding. You still completely miss my point. Either I'm not being clear or you're not reading what I wrote. Either way, I'm tired of repeating myself.

The point, which has been lost in this silly tangential crap about MOA, is that there is nothing keeping the 77/357 from shooting sub-MOA. I don't know what's wrong with it from the factory, whether it has sloppy chambers, or Ruger's using funky blanks, stock contact, bad crowns or what. But if the 77/22 in .22LR can shoot MOA or better with a good barrel, the .357 should do at least as well or better.

And I hope we do understand that the 77/22 and 77/357 are the same platform???

 

[R.W.Dale]

I'm going to add my experience

The 77/22 is well regarded in the 22 precision community as one of those neat rifles that looks way better than they shoot. A box stock Marlin 60 would give most 77/22's a hard time.

I've had the 77/22 a 77/22 hornet two 77/44s and a 77/357

If any of these rifles shot a sub 2" group at 50 yds I don't remember it. After trying various accurizing tricks I came to the conclusion that it's the split bolt design

My point being that a 77/22 is no shining example of the platforms capabilities

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Minute of paper plate is my concern at 100 yards. For small game, Minute of Grouse at 25 yards.

 

[Obturation]

I've got a lot of rugers, didn't stop me from buying a 77/357. It's an awesome carbine . ruger gets a lot of my money because they make guns I want to buy, nothing wrong with that.

 

[CraigC]

My point being that a 77/22 is no shining example of the platforms capabilities

Note a Clark Custom with a match barrel is my example, not the off the shelf 77/22. If they shoot sub-MOA with a new barrel, I would say it has more to do with Ruger cutting the chambers like they do on 10/22's. Loose.

That said, the .22Mag I had shot MOA.

 

[3Crows]

My 7722 Hornet shoots MOA. Never had a problem with it. It likes the Hornady fast stuff or equal reloads of the same bullet.

As to a .22LR being MOA at 50 and not at 100, is not that because the bullet transitions from supersonic to subsonic and that is why the .22LR goes wonky between 50 and 100 yards? So, just start off subsonic. I am pretty sure several of my .22 rifles will shoot MOA at both 50 and 100 yards.

3C

 

[R.W.Dale]

My 7722 Hornet shoots MOA. Never had a problem with it. It likes the Hornady fast stuff or equal reloads of the same bullet.

As to a .22LR being MOA at 50 and not at 100, is not that because the bullet transitions from supersonic to subsonic and that is why the .22LR goes wonky between 50 and 100 yards? So, just start off subsonic. I am pretty sure several of my .22 rifles will shoot MOA at both 50 and 100 yards.

3C

Those of us in benchrest rimfire take great lengths to make sure we are never supersonic .

If anyone here figures out the formula to make your 50 yard average group size be the exact same at 100 please let me know

The short answer is the bullet spends a lot more time getting from 50 to 100 and that gives nature more time to act on it.

I have an anomaly with my 40x benchrest rifle where my best ammunition at 50 is not the best ammunition at 100. The ES and SD is even worse than the 50 yd load Ponder that.