357 Magnum vs 45 ACP

[sonier]

The 45 wont have the massive explosion capabilities the 357 magnum has, I set up a test on penetration, it was 2 hog hams and a shoulder blade behind those hams. the load was a custom load of mine, It was a 125 grain hollowpoint with 22 grains of H-110 behind pushing about 1800fps, this load has 899 foot pounds, this is a MAX LOAD i have worked to this point over the years, it is not safe in most guns. It penetrated 7 inches, thats not much penetration huh? so where did all that momentum go and all that power, well it created a wound channel that was about 3 inches wide. Heres a pic of what the bullet looked like when i recovered it. Personally i dont think the 45 is capable of producing that much power. The 357 mag is indeed a superior cartridge in stopping power.

 

[Ben86]

Personally i dont think the 45 is capable of producing that much power.

It would if you loaded it up to hyper velocities like you did with your .357. Take the .454 casull for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.454_Casull

 

[sonier]

linking the 454 casull is like me linking the 357 super mag or 357 maximum I can load 110 grain in the 357 magnum with h-110 and reach over 2000fps and just tad over 1000 foot pounds.

 

[sonier]

the 45 ACP canot withstand high pressure, the hottest load you can fire in this cartridge is producing 600 foot pounds at its max, i have 583 loads on one webpage that has all the load data from every sight, and i could not find one that even got too 600 foot pounds. so show me a load that is published that produces any where even close too my 357 mag published load. It wont happen you need a dif cartidge such as the 45 winchester mag or 460 rowland.

 

[rswartsell]

see Mr. Peter,

Post #72.

+1

 

[rswartsell]

If the question was versatility, .357 hands down. My favorite and has been for 30+ years. Coming down to common sense I can't say it better than Mr. Peter did oh so many frenetic posts ago.

 

[Manco]

Some random thoughts. You should carry the most powerful round you can shoot accurately. Some people have trouble with the flash, recoil and noise of a .357.Depending on the round, a .357 mag might be in the 600 ft/lbs energy range. Thats one reason why many police switched to the .40 in a semi auto. Less noise and recoil.

Larger bullets can generally carry similar wounding potential with less flash & bang.

while less powerful on paper then a .357, it scored 96 percent one shot stops on Evan marshall,s charts. As I recall, it produces approx 500 ft/lbs of energy. (A 9 MM depending on round selected is around 400 ft/lbs)

These differences in kinetic energy might make a noticeable difference when shooting watermelons, but I for one doubt it makes much difference when shooting people. Maybe it does, but I'm skeptical.

A footnote, the FBI sugests a minimum of 400 ft/lbs of energy for a self defense round.

It's just a general guideline regarding wounding potential, and is not intended to suggest that the "transfer of energy" is a useful wounding mechanism at the levels encountered with common handgun calibers (including .357 Magnum). In fact, the FBI dismisses this theory outright, saying that shot placement and penetration are the main factors in incapacitation, everything else being secondary.

The 45 wont have the massive explosion capabilities the 357 magnum has, I set up a test on penetration, it was 2 hog hams and a shoulder blade behind those hams. the load was a custom load of mine, It was a 125 grain hollowpoint with 22 grains of H-110 behind pushing about 1800fps, this load has 899 foot pounds, this is a MAX LOAD i have worked to this point over the years, it is not safe in most guns. It penetrated 7 inches, thats not much penetration huh? so where did all that momentum go and all that power, well it created a wound channel that was about 3 inches wide. Heres a pic of what the bullet looked like when i recovered it. Personally i dont think the 45 is capable of producing that much power.

True, .45 ACP cannot achieve this level of kinetic energy and wound in exactly the same matter. However, it should be noted that most factory-loaded .357 Magnum rounds have far less energy, as well, and are already a handful as it is.

The 357 mag is indeed a superior cartridge in stopping power.

That's not necessarily true, especially with the limited penetration in your example. It depends on where the target is hit and how deeply the bullet must penetrate in order to destroy vital tissues.

While I think it is fair to say that .357 Magnum theoretically has more wounding potential by virtue of its greater kinetic energy, actually realizing its full potential in the real world against human targets is tricky. This is because the bullets are small, and although they're relatively energetic, they still don't have enough energy to devastate people the way high-powered rifles can. If the benefits were demonstrably worth the tradeoffs, then commonly available .357 Magnum rounds would not be as lightly loaded as they are. The .357's forte is really high penetration against large animals when used with certain types of bullets, and like I said earlier this capability is somewhat wasted with humans.

 

[sonier]

The reason light bullets arnt loaded fast from the factory is due to flame cutting, I want to limit my self defense rounds to maybe 500 throught he entire revolvers life, its not due to lack of power or people comparing it to shooting aluminum foil rounds. and the thread was 45 vs 357 not 357 vs 30/06. and also a 30/06 factory load is a 150 grain or 165 grain bullet which is same category as 158 grain swc out of the 357 mag. also the penetration of 7 inches is plenty enough to get the bullet inside vitals very easy, as well as a nice medium 158 or 180 leadcast has superior penetration to the 45 acp.

 

[Manco]

The reason light bullets arnt loaded fast from the factory is due to flame cutting,

Then that is one of the several drawbacks for which any increase in "stopping power" due to energy isn't considered sufficient to override. And while using a heavier bullet on maxed-out loads may be more forgiving on the gun, it will grossly overpenetrate human targets. Designing a bullet and load that will work just right in every way and maximize the so-called "stopping power" of this caliber is not easy.

and the thread was 45 vs 357 not 357 vs 30/06.

The point is that whether people realize it or not, they are essentially comparing .357 Magnum (or any service pistol caliber) to high-powered rifle calibers whenever they mention "energy transfer" as a wounding mechanism.

and also a 30/06 factory load is a 150 grain or 165 grain bullet which is same category as 158 grain swc out of the 357 mag.

.30-06 has a lot more energy than .357 Magnum, of course.

also the penetration of 7 inches is plenty enough to get the bullet inside vitals very easy,

But the probability of hitting something vital is reduced. For example, 7 inches of penetration would not be enough to incapacitate me with a gut shot, but a .45 ACP bullet that penetrates 12+ inches to my spinal column might just do the trick (not that I'm volunteering for experiments ).

as well as a nice medium 158 or 180 leadcast has superior penetration to the 45 acp.

True enough, but it would be wasted in comparison to a .45 ACP bullet that expands a fair amount but still penetrates all the way through (there are a number of loads that will do this). Plus the .45 ACP bullet would create a larger permanent wound channel. Simply put, there are advantages to being larger, and it is unclear whether .357 Magnum has sufficient energy (especially in a manageable load) to overcome this advantage--maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. I personally favor excess penetration, within reason, so I'd actually side with .357 Magnum overall, I think, but that doesn't mean I can prove that it's better than .45 ACP overall (just trying to be fair). Against large, tough, powerful animals, .357 Magnum has a significant advantage, no question, but against humans it's more complicated, and .357 Magnum isn't exactly a bona fide rifle round, as pointed out above.

 

[sleepyone]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I have heard from reputable sources that the 357 mag is the world's most proven man stopper with the highest number of confirmed kills and the highest percentage of one-shot stops. Can anyone confirm or refute this?

That being said, I have shot a lot of both and I would not want to get in the way of either.

 

[sthomper]

"These lawmen knew that both cartridges had their place, and that some could do certain things better than the other."

i have read that most self defense (or maybe even all shootings) are in the 15 foot range.

if that is so, and with that in mind, what benefits are there to each? only from a bullet standpoint really, not so much the pistol type standpoint.

is the mass on a very speedy .357 mag suffiicient to penetrate flesh and bone (without deflection and fragmentation) as well as a .45acp?? does the .45acp's mass and momentum break through bone barriers better than the .357 mag???

does the seemingly small amount of diameter differnce really make an impact when teh bullets hit solid items...bone, wood, glass, solid barriers, iow???

 

[sthomper]

The 3nd volume...
is that a mistake?? do you mean 2nd or 3rd what is a 3nd??? is there even such a ting as 3nd??

 

[sthomper]

and if you want tacticle advantages

what do you mean by tacticle?

 

[sthomper]

357 seems to dump its energy explosively into tissue, and as a result will not necessarily out-penetrate a .45 JHP (it won't if the latter goes all the way through). Therefore a .357 bullet will likely come into direct contact with a smaller volume of tissue than a .45 bullet, making for a smaller permanent cavity overall....

how does a metal bullet explosivley dump energy??? is that a false concept??

 

[sthomper]

"I don't think that any solid conclusions have been reached as to exactly why it is supposedly a superior performer against humans. "

with similar bullet construction and placement will the .357 mag nearly always give better penetration performance?? is there anything about the human body that would make the popular .357 mag loads less likely to penetrate bones and skin than a .45 acp??

is there anything about the .357mag that would make it more likely to be deflected or fragmented even though it has greater energy?

 

[Manco]

how does a metal bullet explosivley dump energy??? is that a false concept??

I was figuratively comparing it to the watermelon example, and sometimes things like fruits do appear to explode when hit by a bullet carrying enough kinetic energy and "dumping" it quickly enough to overwhelm their structural integrity with hydrodynamic forces. In flesh, which is usually far more resilient, I just meant that the bullet loses energy and momentum very quickly, thereby limiting penetration.

with similar bullet construction and placement will the .357 mag nearly always give better penetration performance??

Not necessarily. With hard-cast, non-expanding bullets .357 Magnum should have significantly greater penetration potential, but with expanding bullets the opposite is usually true, with slower, heavier bullets generally getting more penetration (depending on how much they expand, of course). Any graphs that depict the relationship between velocity and penetration must look pretty weird (having some kind of wave shape, sometimes going up and sometimes going down, I'd imagine), but for whatever reason, that's how things seem to work.

is there anything about the human body that would make the popular .357 mag loads less likely to penetrate bones and skin than a .45 acp??

Nothing that I know of.

is there anything about the .357mag that would make it more likely to be deflected

Lighter bullet weights?

or fragmented even though it has greater energy?

Yeah...greater energy.

 

[sthomper]

"...but with expanding bullets the opposite is usually true, with slower, heavier bullets generally getting more penetration (depending on how much they expand, of course)."

are you saying that even though an expanding type .357mag still with greater energy than an expanding .45acp the heavier, slower .45acp will tend to penetrate further???

 

[GLOOB]

dfgdfgdfgdfgd

 

[GLOOB]

I don't put much stock in Marshall Sanow statistics, to begin with. But even if you take them at stock value, consider why the .357 might have a higher 1 shot stop statistic.

It was the most common police caliber, once upon a time, in a simpler day and age where police officers sometimes aimed. Afterall, they had to get the job done with 6 shots, against criminals who were similarly armed. The one that missed was the one that lost. After a good hit, you might even want to save some rounds, in case there's another criminal around.

Compared to today. "... unloaded his entire 15 shot magazine from 10 feet away, hitting the suspect once in the arm."

Or, "suspect shot 26 times and killed."

There aren't many instances where modern police officers make a good shot, then stop there. What's the saying? Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice?

 

[strambo]

I took a .357 revolver and reamed every other chamber to .45 cal and also re-bored the barrel to .45 dia. for the best of both worlds. The .357 mags tumble for devastating effect and the .45 blows 'em off their feet.

 

[Manco]

"...but with expanding bullets the opposite is usually true, with slower, heavier bullets generally getting more penetration (depending on how much they expand, of course)."

are you saying that even though an expanding type .357mag still with greater energy than an expanding .45acp the heavier, slower .45acp will tend to penetrate further???

I'm saying that it could, depending on the exact designs of the bullets and loads. While this all may seem counterintuitive to some, energy counts less than momentum when it comes to penetration, and some .45 ACP rounds have both greater momentum and higher sectional density (even though they're wider) than some .357 Magnum rounds (generally true regarding service-type rounds). In addition, faster bullets tend to expand sooner, causing more damage while the wound is still shallow and sacrificing some penetration in the process. Of course, this can be compensated for by using heavier, longer .357 Magnum bullets, but then the kinetic energy will drop, reducing its already dubious advantage over .45 ACP in terms of indirect wounding.

Don't get me wrong--.357 Magnum is a very versatile round and I'm sure that an expanding round could be designed to out-penetrate expanding .45 ACP rounds, but in the most common factory loads for self-defense, .357 Magnum does not necessarily penetrate more than .45 ACP, and in fact usually the opposite is true, based on what I've seen.

 

[Justin Holder]

10mm Auto, any questions class?

 

[sonier]

357 mag and the 45 acp out perform the 10mm lol

 

[MCgunner]

I'm glad someone dug up an old chevy vs ford thread and didn't start yet a new one.

10mm is capable of as much energy out of a 5" gun as .357 is out of a 6" revolver. It's WAY ahead of the .45ACP even in +P and equals the .357 and tosses a bigger bullet to boot. I don't own one, just sayin'.

I'm sure I commented on this thread somewhere, but I'm too lazy to flip the pages. But, I've shot hogs in the trap with both calibers and I've killed several hogs out of the trap with the .357. The .357 magnum is a legit hunting caliber....45ACP, not so much. I can tell you the .357 kills hogs faster in my experience. Now, I own a .45 Colt that I can push a 300 grain pill to 1200 fps, but I thought we were talking .45ACP here.

I was strolling back to the truck after checking my trap one day several months back and stumbled into an 80 lb boar staring at me from an oak mot about 15 yards distant. I placed one 140 grain Speer JHP carry load (17 grains 2400) on his head. The pressure from the ballistic pressure wave was such that it blew his right eye out of it's socket. Now, I've not seen this with the .45ACP, but did one other time head shooting a pig in the trap. It is a little gross, but impressive, and it's why I think the .45 doesn't measure up to the .357, pure energy, the ballistic pressure wave that caliber puts up. I hunt with a 6.5" Blackhawk, but shot that particular pig with a 3" Taurus M66 that I carry from time to time in cooler months. I've been a fan of the caliber for 35 years. My first centerfire handgun was a 4" Ruger Security Six. I traded that Security Six for the Blackhawk for a hunting revolver. My .45 Colt is also a Blackhawk, a 4 5/8" stainless and my .45 ACP is a KP90DC. I sorta like Rugers.

The .45ACP is a good self defense caliber, easy to shoot, mild recoil and report, fast follow ups if needed, but for raw power, I'll pick the magnum. For hunting, I'll pick the magnum. I even like it as a carry weapon. I rather enjoy the recoil and muzzle flash. It means POWER. But, I don't thiink it's any better than the .45ACP for self defense, really, sorta TOO much if that's possible. The .45 is quite deadly with the right ammo, after all. Heck, I carry the 9x19 more than either one of those calibers and even the .38 special and EVEN the 9x18 Makarov. I feel a little more confident that the 9x19, the .45, or the .357 will get the job done with less rounds fired than the .38 or 9x18, but that don't mean those calibers are less than worthy for self defense considering the platforms they're chambered in are so easily concealed. But, then, my fav is for that reason, the Kel Tec is a pocket auto in a service caliber and that's hard to beat.

There's more to choosing what to carry than the power of the cartridge I guess is what I'm saying. In what amounts to winter here, about 3 months where it rarely breaks 85 degrees for highs and there are one or two days it actually freezes, I have a choice of .357 vs .45. The rest of the year it's 9x19 vs .38 special which is yet another argument that I'm sure there's an old thread or 10 on this board about.

 

[easyg]

My two cents worth...

The .357 magnum is definitely more powerful than the .45ACP.
But I wouldn't want to shoot 200 rounds of .357 magnum in one range session.