New entry to the caliber conflict that has played out so often

[Skribs]

I have never, nor have I heard folks say that a person using a Judge/Gov. doesn't need to aim.

What I have said on the matter is that it gives the user more of a potential for a stop vs a single projectile.

This is kinda what I run into when I say it makes it more likely to hit something vital. What I mean is, that unless you are VERY good at hitting moving targets and able to keep a cool head, chances are your 9mm slug isn't going to hit the heart. You might hit a lung, zip through without hitting anything vital, or go low (gutshot) or high (headshot or miss), but there seems to be this assumption that if you can hit the bullseye on paper, you'll shoot a bad guy in the heart every time.

With every pull of the trigger on most pistols, you have one slug going into the BG. With ever pull of the trigger of the trigger on a Judge, yeah you might not exactly hit dead center where you're aiming (but as we established above, dead center where you're aiming isn't always the heart), but you get 3-5 chances that one of the projectiles will hit the heart.

Like I said, I can see the appeal, and I think the .410 is one of those that offers an interesting platform over a conventional pistol round, but if you select the proper load, I don't think you'd have a problem stopping BGs within the range that you can put that load on a torso.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.they make for a better fight stopper than a single projectile dependant weapon..

We understand what you are saying and are saying you are wrong, unless you didn't notice.

 

[Skribs]

We understand what you are saying and are saying you are wrong, unless you didn't notice.

I would say it would be more accurate for you to say you THINK pfletch is wrong, just like I think it would be accuratte for plfetch to say he THINKs he is right. It's the same with the other contraversial calibers:

The fanbois say "OMG ITS THE GREATEST THING EVER ID GIVE UP PIZZA TO HAVE THIS!"
The haters say "9mm/.45 has worked, and the new thing is different, so it won't work."

Then you get people like me, who recognize that both the conventional and the "new" have advantages and disadvantages, and it's hard to say where one or the other is "better".

 

[Certaindeaf]

I would say it would be more accurate for you to say you THINK pfletch is wrong, just like I think it would be accuratte for plfetch to say he THINKs he is right. It's the same with the other contraversial calibers:

The fanbois say "OMG ITS THE GREATEST THING EVER ID GIVE UP PIZZA TO HAVE THIS!"
The haters say "9mm/.45 has worked, and the new thing is different, so it won't work."

Then you get people like me, who recognize that both the conventional and the "new" have advantages and disadvantages, and it's hard to say where one or the other is "better".

I would say it would be more accurate for you to say that you think I'm wrong.
No big whoop on my part one way or another.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Then you get people like me, who recognize that both the conventional and the "new" have advantages and disadvantages, and it's hard to say where one or the other is "better".

You mean, people who don't have experience with both? Yes, the .410 can be a very good fight stopper under 7 yards. But in that scenario, I can fire 4 accurate 9mm rounds for every 2 semi-accurate .410 rounds. I will take the service caliber any day for that situation. Once you get past 10 yards (and yes, defensive situations can take place past 10 yards), the .410/.45 LC out of a Judge or Governor is just not as good as a service caliber handgun.

In summary, this is my personal experience with the guns, and it mirrors 3 other shooters that I shot with that day.

Argue it all that you want, but until you actually try them side-by-side, you don't have the experience necessary to say where one is better than the other, or that one as a whole is better than the other.

 

[481]

Given the options of .45 v. 9mm v. .410, I'd have to go with .45 JHPs (in 185, 200, or 230 gr weights) or 9mm JHPs (in 115, 124, 135, or 147 gr weights)

The .410 with birdshot is a deal-breaker for sure- those little pellets can and will be stopped by a single thickness of drywall especially at the diminished velocities produced by the shortened barrels of revolvers like the "Judge" and the "Governor". Not good.

Larger buckshot makes a little more sense, but it still lacks the sectional density necessary to make it competitive with common SD loads in .45 and 9mm- as a result, penetration suffers. Pellet count also suffers as shot size increases in that little shotgun bore, another losing trade-off.


Gimme a .45 or 9.

 

[Skribs]

Argue it all that you want, but until you actually try them side-by-side, you don't have the experience necessary to say where one is better than the other, or that one as a whole is better than the other.

I AM talking about under 7 yards, and until you try them side-by-side on an attacker (I think there's some legal issue with planning this experiment) we won't KNOW which one is better. We do know that, under 7 yards, both can place hits on-target and both will penetrate to the required depth.

Larger buckshot makes a little more sense, but it still lacks the sectional density necessary to make it competitive with common SD loads in .45 and 9mm- as a result, penetration suffers. Pellet count also suffers as shot size increases in that little shotgun bore, another losing trade-off.

As I said before, specific buckshot loads can make 12-15" penetration in the Judge.

 

[allaroundhunter]

I AM talking about under 7 yards, and until you try them side-by-side on an attacker (I think there's some legal issue with planning this experiment) we won't KNOW which one is better.

Do you only plan to defend yourself out to 7 yards?..... Heck, even the .45ACP vs. .40 S&W vs. 9mm debates have better arguments than which one is more effective inside of 7 yards....

 

[Creature]

...regarding the video, seeing is believing. I would have liked to have watched the shooter actually take seven paces from the target to measure out 21 ft.

 

[Skribs]

Do you only plan to defend yourself out to 7 yards?..... Heck, even the .45ACP vs. .40 S&W vs. 9mm debates have better arguments than which one is more effective inside of 7 yards....

It depends entirely on where you're using it. For example, in my condo, the longest distance I would feasibly use it is around 5 yards, and where I would use a nightstand gun is 3-4 yards (from where I'm standing, closer if you count the length of my arm).

Like I said, I don't have one, and I don't plan on getting one. But if someone uses it, and it's logical that the situation they'd use it is within its effective range, then I don't think they'll have any problem stopping a BG.

 

[Pfletch83]

@allaroundhunter

What is the average distance of most self defense cases with a handgun?

 

[Pfletch83]

Example #1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0ut5e2vSXA

Example #2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTX7hqeNyQ0&feature=related

Example #3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4t1a_v9sG4&feature=related

Example #4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGOmtyTJ2f0&feature=related

Example #5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkc8AJLRVJs&feature=related

Example #6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6Ps1ZC1-Qw&feature=related

Example #7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz4tOc1GLgo

Example #8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfY5fVdnb_A&NR=1&feature=endscreen

Should I keep going?

 

[Lawdawg45]

@ Lawdawg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlYXNhJXmXo&feature=plcp

I am impressed. Not my cup of tea, but a respectable weapon and shot pattern.

LD

 

[Pfletch83]

@ Lawdawg

Thank you for saying so sir,I'm glad that we could have this conversation.

Also just to tie up any loose ends from the video examples...how far would you say that most of those encounters took place?

50 yards...25 yards?

Or

Barely a few feet at the longest?

 

[Skribs]

FWIW I think people with the Governor have mentioned significant accuracy improvements compared with the Judge.

@ Lawdawg

Thank you for saying so sir,I'm glad that we could have this conversation.

Also just to tie up any loose ends from the video examples...how far would you say that most of those encounters took place?

50 yards...25 yards?

Or

Barely a few feet at the longest?

Long range defense is, I believe, a similar scenario to body armor defense. It happens more than some people think, and I don't think its likely enough to prepare for, but if it happens and you're not adequately prepared, flight is probably your only viable option. FWIW, the only scenario I can think of where long range defense is justified is an active shooter.

 

[silicosys4]

Impressed by lots of holes in paper? Gotcha.

Impressed by the 4" of penetration behind those holes in a real life bad guy? Not so much. 24 non-lethal wounds in a 300lb methhead coming for ya... aint going to cut it.

 

[Pfletch83]

@Silicosys4

Birdshot maybe could go 4 inches but the '000' stuff punches much deeper.

 

[Skribs]

Impressed by lots of holes in paper? Gotcha.

Impressed by the 4" of penetration behind those holes in a real life bad guy? Not so much. 24 non-lethal wounds in a 300lb methhead coming for ya... aint going to cut it.

You've apparently missed the links I made to Box o Truth #53, where they said specific loads of buckshot in the 3" barrel would go 12-15", and other loads still made it 9-12".

 

[Pfletch83]

@Skribs

But such encounters are most often the exception rather than the rule wouldn't you say?

 

[Skribs]

But such encounters are most often the exception rather than the rule wouldn't you say?

Yes. They are also the ones where it is very obvious the BGs intent is to kill (rather than just steal your wallet, although personally I assume anyone commiting a forcible felony wishes grevious harm to me).

The other side is, while the .410 is going to be effective at close range, its effectiveness compared with a 9 or a .45 is obviously debatable (I'd argue it's easily a better choice than a .22 or .25, though), its effectiveness at long range is laughable. So you're not gaining much in close range, but you lose a lot in a long range encounter.

If you think the long range encounter isn't worth preparing for, then this isn't a factor to consider. If you think giving up some perceived increase in short-range capability for the possibility of a long range encounter, then it's worth considering. If you want to be prepared for an active shooter situation, then relegate the .410 to either a range toy or a desk gun.

For me, personally, I'm sticking with my 9. However, I don't think the .410 out of a revolver is a weak option by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't want people to see posts saying that you'll never hit anything with it, or that you'll only penetrate 2" into a BG, and think that these statements are accurate.

 

[Pfletch83]

@Skribs

Thank you for being honest on this subject,that is all anyone could ask for.

I would like to say that long range encounters should be trained for because they lead to the shooter becoming a better shot with their weapon of choice,and breed confidence.

But I will say that we should expect that in a defensive use of a handgun,that the encounter is going to most often than not be a very close range and very dirty affair.

 

[allaroundhunter]

@allaroundhunter

What is the average distance of most self defense cases with a handgun?

It is inside of 21 ft (7 yards), IIRC. But again, that is the average. Does that mean that you want a weapon that will leave you far undergunned if you are involved in a defensive situation that is not "average"?

I am all for hoping for the best case scenario, meaning knowing when I will be attacked, who will attack me, what they will attack me with, and knowing what distance the encounter will be.....but we don't really have a say in all of that.

 

[Skribs]

I would like to say that long range encounters should be trained for because they lead to the shooter becoming a better shot with their weapon of choice,and breed confidence.

Yes and no. Putting the target 50 yards away and practicing slow, aimed fire isn't going to help you much as you draw and point shoot in a point-blank, fast-pace engagement.

It is inside of 21 ft (7 yards), IIRC. But again, that is the average. Does that mean that you want a weapon that will leave you far undergunned if you are involved in a defensive situation that is not "average"?

As I say in other threads: you need to prepare for what you think you need to prepare for. There's going to be SOMETHING that will render your setup useless. For most handguns, that's pretty easily obtainable body armor.

 

[Pfletch83]

@Allaroundhunter

That is why I've been stocking up on both flavors of .45 caliber ammo

I'm not saying that longer ranged fights won't happen but as you can see from the vids that were used in examples as well as many of the defensive use stories in any number of firearms magazines or other such articles in local papers,the folks involved in defensive use encounters are only seperated from their attackers anywhere from a few inches to scarce feet (if a 3 yard distance at the most)

 

[481]

As I said before, specific buckshot loads can make 12-15" penetration in the Judge.

If it doesn't hit bone (e.g. COM is covered by ribs).

Otherwise I suppose that's fine if you want three or four little holes that do very little in the way of actual tissue disruption ala FMJ. I'll stick with a well-designed JHP in .45 or 9mm, thank you very much.