New entry to the caliber conflict that has played out so often

[Pfletch83]

For folks that think the Governor is underpowered with '000' buck loads I was actually able to kill a Hog today (for fresh meat)


The first round of '000' buck slammed through the Hogs skull,and for folks that say "So what?"

The Hogs skull was a thick two inches of solid bone plus 4-5 inches of flesh beyond that.

The shot set a 350 pound hog on it's rear haunches (Was smacked like a 2 dollar hoe that came up a little shy if you follow)

 

[silicosys4]

Lol, was there pooh in your pants when he dropped, Pfletch? The consensus here is that the Hog could not have been more than 10 feet away or you would have missed clean...
Lol, or was it a farm hog that was nice and close and standing still, that would have dropped the same if you hit him in the head with a sledge, a 9mm, or a .45?
I made a finishing shot on an 800lb elk with a 22lr. Killed it instantly, right in the ear. Blammo. Alaskan indians said the 22lr was overpowered for moose, The 22 short was the round for moose...but they would canoe up to them while they were swimming and shoot them in the ear. Does that mean the 22lr is adequate for those game animals? Certainly not.
For the record though, in a 45 or 9mm, chances are pretty much any factory load would have done the job. Not that .410 though...you have to find the one kind of ammo it DOESNT shoot either dangerously or ineffectively.
I'm glad you found the load that worked in your gun. I prefer my gun to shoot all loads at least acceptably. If I had a gun that only shot ONE brand of ONE type of shell acceptably, at very limited ranges, I'd get rid of that gun.

 

[allaroundhunter]

For folks that think the Governor is underpowered with '000' buck loads I was actually able to kill a Hog today (for fresh meat)

And hogs are killed every day with .22 LRs as well.

Again, no one is saying that the gun doesn't work. We are saying that for personal defense there are better choices. You don't have to defend your choice, if you are comfortable with it, great! Keep using it. The only bad choice is the one that you aren't confident in.

I have to ask, how far away was the pig when you shot it, and was it in a trap for you to get that clean of a shot on it? Also, any pictures of the pig? (even though a .22 will kill a hog, I'd love to see the damage that a load of .410 000 buck will do to the head of one)

I prefer my gun to shoot all loads at least acceptably. If I had a gun that only shot ONE brand of ONE type of shell acceptably, at very limited ranges, I'd get rid of that gun.

+1

 

[Skribs]

I prefer my gun to shoot all loads at least acceptably. If I had a gun that only shot ONE brand of ONE type of shell acceptably, at very limited ranges, I'd get rid of that gun.

You guys are toting this as a design flaw, but there are many loads for 9mm, etc. that people choose not to carry for various reasons. I won't carry Hornady Critical Defense because it's got too little penetration, and most people won't carry ball ammo because the increase in penetration is unecessary but the lack of expansion hurts.

Should I not carry my 9mm because there are only a few specific loads that I will use in SD?

ETA: The reason for this issue is that the .410 wasn't designed with a 3" barrel in mind, so specific loads had to be designed for these. Because those loads exist, it is not a limitation of the .410 revolver, but rather the design of most .410 shells within the revolver platform.

 

[Pfletch83]

The Hog


The Hogs head with probe



The only recovered '000' pellet

 

[NG VI]

Should I not carry my 9mm because there are only a few specific loads that I will use in SD?

The list of good 9mm loads is pretty long though.

For every Critical Defense or 115 Silvertip there's a Gold Dot load, an HST, a Ranger-T, a Golden Saber, a PDX1, or a DPX, any one of which will reliably expand and consistently penetrate deep enough for most people's peace of mind.

Then there are all of the generic JHPs that may not be quite as consistent, they may be defeated by unplanned events a little easier than your flagship bullets, but still deliver good performance.

It's harder to find an unacceptably inconsistent or shallow penetrating load than it is to find one that performs well in 9mm, while in .410 you have a handful of ok loads (that still leave you with a severe range handicap and spread liability) and a lot of nearly useless loads to choose from.

And then you still get to deal with the bulk, weight, and capacity issues.

As far as posting videos of defensive shootings, where do you think those would come from Pfletch?

 

[Pfletch83]

@NG VI

It's just that you seem so sure that all defensive encounters happen outside the effective range of a .410 revolver.

When in fact as the examples I have posted show that such up close contact is most often the case for a defensive handgun use.

I find it rather funny that you think the '000' buck loads are under powered even when you can see that such a load punched through 2 inches of solid bone (How thick is a human chest cavity or skull bone structure wise?)

 

[Skribs]

It's just that you seem so sure that all defensive encounters happen outside the effective range of a .410 revolver.

I never got the example that he said all of them happen outside the range of a .410. What I gathered is he said there is a definite gap in the range of the .410 and the range of a 9mm, and that if the encounter happens outside the range of the .410, then it would be a very big problem. Whereas if it happens inside that range, the 9 will work just as good as it had before.

NG, I think that if there are some acceptable loads, then the platform itself works. I don't just go buy whatever is on the shelf for my decent loads, I shop around (and there's even online ordering if you can't find it in a local store). The fact that you need specific loads which cater to a different design than was originally intended for the .410 is, IMO, not a hindrance to the effectiveness of the .410 revolver. I do believe there are hindrances, but I don't believe this is one of them.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Pfletch.... No one has said that most occur outside of the effective range of the .410. You are getting so defensive about this that you aren't correctly reading what is actually being said.

Inside of 7 yards, that Judge will pack one heck of a wallop, but I don't want to be outta luck by carrying a Judge and needing to defend myself from a threat that is further away. Will a 9mm carry the same power as a 000 buck load inside of 7 yards? No, but it will still get the job done well. Will a .410 000 buck load ever be as effective or accurate as a 9mm at 15+ yards? No. That is one of the main reasons that it is not a good defensive choice, IMO.

Sent from my HTC One X

 

[NG VI]

It's just that you seem so sure that all defensive encounters happen outside the effective range of a .410 revolver.

When in fact as the examples I have posted show that such up close contact is most often the case for a defensive handgun use.

You've posted the same vague, zero-reference bits of conventional wisdom about defensive shootings generally lasting 2-3 rounds and taking place at about three feet away.

If a guy happens to be a significant enough threat to warrant firing at him, and he is a little further than that away from you, you cannot in good conscience fire at him with a .410 revolver if you two aren't completely alone. The .410 revolvers spread so much that it would be reckless and callous of you to take a shot at someone any further sevenish yards.

The issue I have with the .410 loads, aside from the small number of adequate offerings, is that no matter which one you choose it would be reckless of you to fire at someone who is still too close to safely just run from, unless the two of you are in an alley alone or out in the woods somewhere.

The gap occurs in an area where you can very much expect to be hit by someone not particularly skilled, and that is a fatal handicap for me.

Yes it works, but it's a crippled platform compared to it's direct competitors for the role it is being marketed for. It's a neat fun gun, it's an outstanding snake gun, but compared to basically every other competing defense gun, it falls extremely short.

 

[KenW.]

I was pleasantly surprised that, at 5 yards I could cover all four 000 pellet holes from one shot in my target with a paper plate using a Bond derringer.

It's not my first choice for a defensive arm, but it fills a specific niche.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Well, it seems that thing'll kill a pig with a headshot.
One day, many years ago, I killed 20 sheep for butchering (all humane headshots) with 20 different guns. Everything from .25acp to way on up there (mainly handguns). They all worked perfectly.
I preferred a good scoped .22 rifle as you didn't have to be all that close for a perfect shot.

 

[481]

@NG VI

It's just that you seem so sure that all defensive encounters happen outside the effective range of a .410 revolver.

When in fact as the examples I have posted show that such up close contact is most often the case for a defensive handgun use.

I find it rather funny that you think the '000' buck loads are under powered even when you can see that such a load punched through 2 inches of solid bone (How thick is a human chest cavity or skull bone structure wise?)

Well, I suppose that it's a good option so long as I can get an assailant to hold still and let me line up the contact shot like on the pig.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

This one's way overdone.

I've deleted the worst of the insults. PMs incoming.