New entry to the caliber conflict that has played out so often

[Pfletch83]

9mm vs .45 ACP vs .410 Buckshot

Which is best for a standard defensive range fight stopper?




9mm has the edge as far as light recoil and capacity,.45 ACP has the advantage of a slower but much heavier and larger diameter bullet....but wait

.410 Buckshot has the advantage of both numbers (Pellets per trigger pull) and greater capacity for structural destruction.

So...any takers?

 

[NG VI]

Yeah I don't think .410 buckshot from a handgun is going to cause more structural damage than any decent 9mm or .45 JHP.

Add in the cumbersome weapons, exceedingly poor range, low capacity, and poor penetration, and I think the conventional service calibers win out in just about every way against a .410 handgun.

 

[Plan2Live]

Yawn. I'm out.

Now, if you have any up to date info on a pistol chambering a shotgun shell being used in a self defense scenario to stop an attacker and the resulting opinion of the Court/jury. I'd love to hear about that.

 

[Pfletch83]

How many wound channels would there be and what is the damage area shot for shot of .410 buck shot vs 9mm or .45?

From what I've seen so far it's a 4 to 1 advantage per trigger pull.

Also of the very few times that a .410 revolver has been used birdshot was what caused the fight to end,add to that the fact that buckshot pellets have been known to plow through more tissue than birdshot and what you see is a clear win.

Also due to the short ranges involved in many defensive use cases distance is not really an issue.

 

[jad0110]

The thing I can't quite figure out is .410 was not long ago knocked for being too weak for self defense when fired from a 20"+ shotgun, but now that several manufacturers have hacked the barrel down to handgun length the .410 has suddenly become the hammer of thor. The only thing I'd say about it is to pattern your load deligently before relying on it. Some .410 handguns with certain brands of ammo have very wide patterns out to just a few yards. That might work fine in the middle of nowhere, but in an urban setting it just increases the odds of someone getting hit unintentionally.

 

[NG VI]

I mean exceedingly poor range like you can't count on it to place all three or four pellets on a human torso beyond five or ten yards.

God help you if someone shoots at you from across the street.

 

[browningguy]

to stop an attacker and the resulting opinion of the Court/jury

What does that have to do with anything?

On a personal note I don't care for the .410 pistols, I've only held two and didn't like the balance of them. So I'll continue to use my 9mm or .40 to fight my way to a real gun (12 ga. or .223, either works).

 

[Certaindeaf]

No professional nor any professional organization uses them as far as I know.
To me, they seem like an odd gimmick. It's funny that they've sold even one of the things.
As a toy or close-up small game getter, it'd probably be OK.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I think the conventional service calibers win out in just about every way against a .410 handgun.

Agreed 100%

The .410/.45 colt revolvers are fine field guns, especial in snake country. But for defense, there are better options.

 

[Inebriated]

My opinion on the .410/.45LC guns is that the .410 is good for the snakes and the dogs attacking you. The .45 Long Colt is good for everything else.

 

[Pfletch83]

@NG VI

Yes goodness help them because at that range is when the DFG Mk-1 or Mk-2 is going to come into play.

 

[45_auto]

.410 Buckshot has the advantage of both numbers (Pellets per trigger pull) and greater capacity for structural destruction.

You have a reference for your "greater capacity for structural destruction" claim?

I think brassfetcher (ballistics testing website: http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/410BoreShotgun.htm) says it best about the .410:

The greatest limitation to the effectiveness of this caliber is the size of the chambers of the guns that are constructed to shoot this round—there is simply not enough room inside of the .410 Bore shell to allow for a large amount of shot to be fired with one trigger pull.

Notwithstanding this limitation, using buckshot or a limited-expansion slug the .410 Bore can be relied upon to stop an attacker given greater than ordinarily careful shot placement.

As long as you're happy with having to achieve "greater than ordinarily careful shot placement" with your poorly balanced weapon, you should be fine.

 

[Lawdawg45]

Pfletch,

Depends on the weapon it's fired from (the .410). Numerous reports on the Judge/Governor reported a terrible shot pattern, especially with buckshot.

LD

 

[Pfletch83]

@ 45 Auto

It's only poorly balanced if you are a poor shot

 

[Pfletch83]

@Lawdawg45

What were the loads used?

Older style or the newer stuff?

 

[allaroundhunter]

Having used a Judge with several brands of modern buckshot, I can safely say that I will take any service caliber handgun over it. After 10 yards, patterning was erratic. In a defensive scenario you are responsible for every projectile that leaves your barrel. There are much better defensive options than a .410 out of a handgun.

Sent from my HTC One X

 

[KenW.]

I take my Bond .410/45 Colt derringer on ATV rides in the desert. Its a fun novelty gun and I might just get to shoot a Great Basin rattler with it one day.
BUT:
I also have a J-frame or XD subcompact along too.

 

[NG VI]

@Lawdawg45

What were the loads used?

Older style or the newer stuff?

I'm guessing it's pretty irrelevant, since the problem with the .45/.410 gun's patterning is largely the rifling.

 

[TAKtical]

Did someone watch Max Payne recently? Lol

 

[MachIVshooter]

I'm guessing it's pretty irrelevant, since the problem with the .45/.410 gun's patterning is largely the rifling.

Yup. They made the rifling shallow in an attempt to reduce the "donut" effect, but that proved detrimental to accuaracy with many .45 Colt loads.

Like I said, I think they're a great snake gun, but for SD, there are higher capacity, more potent handguns that conceal easier, weigh less and balance better.

 

[Pfletch83]

The Governor balances very well.

 

[Skribs]

I think the .410 buckshot out of a handgun offers more potential wound tracts, which increases the amount of physical trauma you can cause with one trigger pull while greatly increasing the chance that your shot will hit something vital at close range.*

NG is right, I wouldn't want to use one in a situation where someone could open fire from across the street, or in a crowded setting, thus why I think Judge/Governor are niche weapons. But, if I knew it would be used under 15 feet, I would not doubt the power of 3-5 000-buck pellets. Even out of a 3" barrel, those will meet the 12" penetration requirement.

*Considering how few pistol shots in a firefight actually hit the heart, I'm saying that a good shot on COM has 3-5 potential wound tracts to hit the heart instead of 1.

With all that said, you have to look at more than just the round, but also the platform...
9mm and .45 are pretty close in "stopping power", with a slight edge to the .45, but overall the 9 has: smaller frame weapons, cheaper ammo, greater capacity, and less recoil.

*The .410 comes in a much larger package than your standard 9 or .45, and you will probably get a significantly higher amount of ammunition in the autoloader.
*In a situation where the BG is right on top of you, the .410 would offer a better wound tract.
*In an active shooter situation, the .410 would more likely hit bystanders than the BG.
*The .410 will have significantly greater recoil, especially if using loads with 4 or 5 000 pellets.
*The .410 ammunition is much more expensive.

Overall, I like the concept, but I just don't think it's the best way to go, the 2 biggest reasons are its size and its lack of long-distance accuracy. I pocket carry a 9mm and I carry a .40 on my hip, I'm happier with the faster follow-up shots than I would be with a .410 brick.

 

[45_auto]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

Lessons learned:
1. Jack bought this pistol for snakes and it looks like a fine tool for that job.

2. Birdshot, in any gauge, is for little birds.

3. Buckshot out of a .410 does not penetrate enough to be an effective personal defense load.

4. The rifled slug was also a disappointment and did not have enough weight or power or penetration to be effective as a defense load.

5. The .45 Long Colt loads had plenty of penetration and would be the preferred defense load for this pistol.

6. It's fun to bust clays with this pistol.

 

[NG VI]

I'd be willing to put a (small) amount of money on the top-class 9mm and .45 JHP loads doing more physiological damage than three 00 buck pellets from a 3" pictol

 

[Certaindeaf]

Heck, I mainly use slugs out of my 12 gauge but that's just me. If I want to put a hole in/through something, no sense messing around.