What's a "DS package"? Never heard that term before.
Why .357 sig When there's 38 super
- Thread starter JRWhit
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What's a "DS package"? Never heard that term before.
What I find amusing about it is following the timeline. The 38 super was found to penatrate auto sheet metal and the body armor of the early 30s, part of the developement of the 357 magnum was to put that ability into the revolvers carried by LE. Then we develope the 357 sig to put 357 power back into a auto platform. many of the early doublestack guns were 10-12 round capasity a single stack 1911 in 38 super holds 10.
Yup, change in power factor makes the 9mm viable. FWIW, the 38 Super can be loaded hot as heck in the right platform. I load 124 grain bullets to 1400 fps in my open gun. I wouldn't want to shoot one of those rounds through my Colt Lwt. Commander. Many 38 Supers do not have fully supported chambers.
JohnBiltz
Member
There were a lot of .38 Supers chambered by major manufactures in the 80s. I had an Astra A80 in .38 Super. It was a great gun but ammo availability was tough. The same gun in .45 had ten rounds in the magazine compared to 15 rounds of .38 super. In something like a Glock 30 I would guess you would again get 15 rounds and in a Glock 21, the rule is generally 2/3 so probably 19 to 20 rounds in a .38 super G21. Pretty serious firepower there.
SharpsDressedMan
member
I'm surprised no one has mentioned it, but sometimes, bottleneck cartridges can be more difficult to load for. The short neck doesn't leave much room for error in sizing, and occasionally, if the die or brass thickness is off, the bullet doesn't have enough friction, and gets pushed in the case too easily when going up the feed ramp. I like the .357 SIG, but have experienced the above on occasion. When everything is right, it is a great cartridge, and factory ammo is usually fine. Reloaders must use just a little more scrutiny than straight walled case loading.
rbernie
Contributing Member
In fairness, it's not the bottleneck shape that contributes to the behavior that you've accurately described, but short necks that don't have adequate contact with the bullet shank.
SharpsDressedMan
member
Correct. It was that SHORT bottleNECK! 
Semi-rimmed cases are less reliable for feeding, than rimless cases, especially with jhp's, and the shorter the slide stroke of the gun, the worse this is. Bottle necked rds feed wonderously reliably, guys, since a smaller front end of the rd is starting into a conserably larger chamber. The longer a rd is, for a given diameter, the less reliably it feeds. The .38 super has always been wussy loaded, from the factories, cause it can be fired in junker old .38 ACP autos.
Why settle for the .38 super, when the 9x23 Win greatly outperforms the super? The 357 sig supposedly can have bullet push/back issues on feeding, due to the short neck of the case not offering as much of a surface to grip the bullet as a straight walled case does. However, empirical evidence from quite a bit of Sig use has shown that this "problem" rarely surfaces. It is the reason given why factories don't want to load the 90 gr jhp in the Sig rd, tho. I say "carry the Sig, but have a 9mm just like it, to practice with".
Why settle for the .38 super, when the 9x23 Win greatly outperforms the super? The 357 sig supposedly can have bullet push/back issues on feeding, due to the short neck of the case not offering as much of a surface to grip the bullet as a straight walled case does. However, empirical evidence from quite a bit of Sig use has shown that this "problem" rarely surfaces. It is the reason given why factories don't want to load the 90 gr jhp in the Sig rd, tho. I say "carry the Sig, but have a 9mm just like it, to practice with".
Lt. Diver said:
I think the issue was though that the .38 Super is a semi-rimmed round. Rather than headspacing on the case mouth the way it should, some guns were made to headspace on the rim. This contributed to the reputation for poor accuracy... at least until someone figured out to headspace on the mouth the way it should be done.
JRWhit said:
Well the .357 sig hasn't exactly taken the world by storm either.
Only a small handful of makers offer pistols for it and if it wasn't for the fact that .40 platforms can be easily converted, you probably wouldn't even have those. A .40 simply needs a barrel swap to shoot .357 sig.
The .40 platforms cannot be converted to the GAP due to the breechface.
That's what I was thinking. Dont all semi auto pistols headspace on the case mouth? Opps, seem like post 33 clears it up..
Russellc
Google search, found.
I'm both ecstatic and disappointed. Wish they would have taken advantage of a double stack magazine.
Peter M. Eick
Member
You can't get a 229 sport in 38 super.
I really like my 229 sport and so therefore I really like the 357 Sig.
I really like my 229 sport and so therefore I really like the 357 Sig.
They didn't make a double stack pistol when the 220 was introduced. The original chamberings were 9x19mm (to replace the 210 as military issue) , .45ACP and .38 Super. The .38 Super has never sold very well.
The Browning marked 220, chambered in .38 Super, is quite a collectors item
You can get a 220 Sport and have it converted...but you'd have to really want one. ($$$)
tipoc
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With rifle rounds that's true. Handguns not so much. Think on it some. When was the last time you heard folks complain that the 9mm was a poorly feeding cartridge? Or the 45acp? Or for that matter the 38 Super? Folks that shoot the Super know it feeds well.
EAA Tanfoglio and Para-Ord have both built double stack guns for the 38 Super. The semi-rim case did not prevent them from working.
John Browning designed the 38acp cartridge as a semi rimmed case back in the 1890s and stuck it in his first pistols. A number of rounds designed back then were semi-rimmed. Colt made these guns at the turn of the century till 1927. Then Colt saw that sales were low and placed the 38acp in the 1911 that they called the Colt Super 38. Same cartridge but in a stronger gun so they loaded the cartridge up. Eventually the round became known as the 38 Super. Been around since 1928, well actually 1898. It's popularity has gone up and down.
It's too good to die.
Read more about it here...www.38super.net
tipoc
Double stack
I have toiled over the EAA Witness Elites in 38 Super for some time. I've been back and forth between that and an STI Trojan. I like both platforms and it's hard to edge one out over the other.
Peter M. Eick
Member
I never really liked the look of the 220 sport and how it bolts the comp on. It lacks the clean lines of the 229 Sport. As a long time 38 Super fan, I bought the sport because the 357 Sig seemed like a reasonable approximation of the Super.
I have often wondered why the 229 sport was not more popular. I guess it is because it is just a range toy for fun.
Both are good rounds. The Sig is probably easier to reload I find and it seems to be more consistent over the Chrono. The Sig tends to have single digit SD's, while the Super tends to be more in the low double digits.
My Witness Elite Match has never bobbled once. I picked up some supercomp brass but have never even opened the box. The super just seems to feed and fire easily sowhy mess with it.
I have often wondered why the 229 sport was not more popular. I guess it is because it is just a range toy for fun.
Both are good rounds. The Sig is probably easier to reload I find and it seems to be more consistent over the Chrono. The Sig tends to have single digit SD's, while the Super tends to be more in the low double digits.
My Witness Elite Match has never bobbled once. I picked up some supercomp brass but have never even opened the box. The super just seems to feed and fire easily sowhy mess with it.
It is the weight.
The all steel 220ST and 226ST, and now the Elites and X-5s, have always been more popular, because when you get a compact gun, you are usually expecting something lighter.
Elkins45
Member
Secret Service uses it, as do the Texas Rangers and a couple of other state police agencies IIRC. There must be a decent number of large scale consumers of the round because used brass is available in quantity from a number of sellers for about the same prices as 40S&W or 9mm.
If you're a reloader it has the advantage of cheap brass, and has an advantage over 40 if you're a bullet caster trying to conserve your lead supply. And now that I've been taught the trick of sizing in a 40S&W carbide die it's not all that much more of a PITA to load.
MagnumDweeb
Member
I thought about doing the Sig .357 if I was able to get one of those XD .40's with the 5" plus barrels and then converting it to Sig .357. I have a lot of spent .40 brass laying around that I'd like to resize but until I get a case trimmer I'm going to hold off on it. But that's a very narrow use for the caliber.
To be perfectly honest I only really like the .38 Super in 1911 but that's more of a personal bias than anything. In a Rock ISland 1911 the .38 Super is a soft shooting gun when using South America made ammo and that's part of the reason I like it. I can load 125 grain cast lead RN bullets to 1100 fps and they feed well. Not something I'd want to rely on for SD but it is a pleasant, soft, and accurate shooter at twenty yards when shooting one handed.
For SD it's a snub nosed .357 magnum (Ruger SP101), .40 Glock 23, or Bersa 9mm ultra compact, with the occasional appearance of a Ruger P90 or Glock 20.
Carry on.
To be perfectly honest I only really like the .38 Super in 1911 but that's more of a personal bias than anything. In a Rock ISland 1911 the .38 Super is a soft shooting gun when using South America made ammo and that's part of the reason I like it. I can load 125 grain cast lead RN bullets to 1100 fps and they feed well. Not something I'd want to rely on for SD but it is a pleasant, soft, and accurate shooter at twenty yards when shooting one handed.
For SD it's a snub nosed .357 magnum (Ruger SP101), .40 Glock 23, or Bersa 9mm ultra compact, with the occasional appearance of a Ruger P90 or Glock 20.
Carry on.
Jenrick
Member
Peter M. Eick: Which mag base plates are you using?
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