Looking at .357 sig, I'm having a hard time figuring out what niche it fills. It is looking to me like it was purely I a marketing ploy to sell guns with a new better design cartridge, when in reality, was just another way to package what already existed. Perhaps I'm missing something but the performance appears to mirror that of the predated 38 Super. I have not concluded any advantage in the .357 sig over the 38 super. If anything I would think that the straight case of the super would yield higher magazine capacities without added grip width. Thoughts?
Why .357 sig When there's 38 super
- Thread starter JRWhit
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au_prospector
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They dont look the same to me...
Looks like standard load .357 Sig are more powerful than standard load .380 Super. Velocity and pressure are quite a bit higher according to Lyman 49. Neither is really a common chamber are they? I think some PDs use the Sig.
Looks like standard load .357 Sig are more powerful than standard load .380 Super. Velocity and pressure are quite a bit higher according to Lyman 49. Neither is really a common chamber are they? I think some PDs use the Sig.
JTQ
Member
The .38 Super is a longer cartridge.
In Glock terms, you can get .357 SIG in a G17/G19 (G22/G23) size gun (I don't know what number the .357SIG is in the Glock line up), while the .38 Super would need to go in the G21 size gun. The G21 is a much bigger gun.
If you are a 1911 guy, there is no advantage to the .357 SIG as the 1911 has room for the .38 Super and the .357 SIG would need some special accommodation for the mags to get it to work in the 1911.
In Glock terms, you can get .357 SIG in a G17/G19 (G22/G23) size gun (I don't know what number the .357SIG is in the Glock line up), while the .38 Super would need to go in the G21 size gun. The G21 is a much bigger gun.
If you are a 1911 guy, there is no advantage to the .357 SIG as the 1911 has room for the .38 Super and the .357 SIG would need some special accommodation for the mags to get it to work in the 1911.
The 38 super is a longer cartridge. Maybe their is an advantage to the reloader, but when comparing factory loads, velocity per bullet weight is nearly identical. I can see the advantage to the manufacturer using existing platforms with nothing more than a barrel to go from one to the other.
But the length isn't any longer than 10mm or 45acp, leaving many platforms available with grip size needed to acomidate all be it the larger frame of choices. I can see the advantage their but at the cost of capacity.
But the length isn't any longer than 10mm or 45acp, leaving many platforms available with grip size needed to acomidate all be it the larger frame of choices. I can see the advantage their but at the cost of capacity.
Ohen Cepel
Member
IIRC the Super didn't get a good rep when it came out since it headspaces on the mouth of the cartridge. People didn't understand this and as a result the was seen to have bad accuracy and never really caught on in the US. Much more common in places which banned "military ammo" like Mexico and South America.
In the end, it's easier to sell NEW to people than old and not popular.
I'm with you though and would likely go Super over the SIG in this case. Super has several things going for it in my mind, the biggest is easier to reload. However, I don't see either being real common down the road but I think the Super will hang on better than the SIG in the long term. Decades of Supers have been made and are still being made so I think it will hand on but won't be common.
The SIG isn't a bad round but a bit of a niche and a bit harder to reload. When the police backed away from it after only a few years it's fate didn't look bright.
In the end, it's easier to sell NEW to people than old and not popular.
I'm with you though and would likely go Super over the SIG in this case. Super has several things going for it in my mind, the biggest is easier to reload. However, I don't see either being real common down the road but I think the Super will hang on better than the SIG in the long term. Decades of Supers have been made and are still being made so I think it will hand on but won't be common.
The SIG isn't a bad round but a bit of a niche and a bit harder to reload. When the police backed away from it after only a few years it's fate didn't look bright.
JTQ
Member
That is correct. If you want a 1911, there is no advantage to getting a .357 SIG. You are much better off with .38 Super, or maybe even 9x23 Winchester.
However, the .357 SIG was designed for guns the size of the SIG P229, G17/G19, etc. The .38 Super does not fit in those guns. That's why we have the .357 SIG.
Devonai
Member
One advantage of the .357 Sig is that if you already have a pistol in .40 S&W, all you need to buy is a new barrel. This gives you the flexibility to try out a new cartridge and see if you like it.
If not, you're only out ~$100 for the barrel, and they're pretty easy to sell second-hand so you'll make most of your money back.
I tried this out with my Glock 27 and a Glock 32 barrel. It wasn't a bad combo.
If not, you're only out ~$100 for the barrel, and they're pretty easy to sell second-hand so you'll make most of your money back.
I tried this out with my Glock 27 and a Glock 32 barrel. It wasn't a bad combo.
rbernie
Contributing Member
^^^ This.
The 38 Super is also longer, limiting the pistols/magwells in which it fits. I can get the 357 Sig in a 9mm sized magwell but the 38 Super requires a 45 ACP sized magwell.
The 38 Super is also longer, limiting the pistols/magwells in which it fits. I can get the 357 Sig in a 9mm sized magwell but the 38 Super requires a 45 ACP sized magwell.
The original .38 Super barrels head spaced on the cartridge rim. This flaw created accuracy problems, which weren't corrected by Colt, until the late 1980's, when the barrels were then chambered to head space on the cartridge case mouth. Before that there were barrel makers (Bar-Sto, etc.) who were building accurate barrels.
There's also the issue of the semi-rimmed case purportedly causing some reliability issues with .38 super. But one can now get .38 super comp brass that has the rim flush with the case wall; may have to re-tension the extractor for those to work, but that solves that issue, to the extent it is one.
VA27
Member
The 357SIG was designed to duplicate 125gr 357 Magnum velocities in a 9mm sized semiauto platform, and it pretty much succeeded. When I did T&E for my agency the 125gr SIG ran 1300-1400fps. Our 4" 357 revolvers were launching 125gr magnum rounds at 1200-1300fps. If it matters, 357SIG rounds use .355 (9mm) bullets.
I wonder how many rounds of 38 Super a Glock 21 sized mag would hold? 18? 20? A Glock 41 in 38 Super would attract me.
I wonder how many rounds of 38 Super a Glock 21 sized mag would hold? 18? 20? A Glock 41 in 38 Super would attract me.
TRX
Member
The .357 Sig is basically a necked-down .40, and will feed through a gun designed for .40 caliber with little or no modification to the magazine, breechface, or feed ramp. Some .40 caliber guns allow conversion to .357 Sig just by swapping out the barrel. Therefore, marketing the .357 costs the manufacturer little.
The .38 Super is still just as super as it ever was, but the Super is enough different from 9mm (the most-similar cartridge in size) that conversion may require a longer magwell, different breechface, different magazine feed lips, etc.
My latest 1911 build was going to be .38 Super, until someone sold me a beautiful stainless .45 slide at a price I couldn't refuse. <sigh>
The .38 Super is still just as super as it ever was, but the Super is enough different from 9mm (the most-similar cartridge in size) that conversion may require a longer magwell, different breechface, different magazine feed lips, etc.
My latest 1911 build was going to be .38 Super, until someone sold me a beautiful stainless .45 slide at a price I couldn't refuse. <sigh>
Simeple answer:
You cannot fit a 38 Super into a double stack magazine self-loader without the grip being oversized.
10mm Glock 20 cannot be easy to grip as 40S&W Glock 22. 357SIG fit into any 40S&W pistol.
Remember that a lot of double action wonder 9 pistols have too fat of a grip even when they just use 9mm.
You cannot fit a 38 Super into a double stack magazine self-loader without the grip being oversized.
10mm Glock 20 cannot be easy to grip as 40S&W Glock 22. 357SIG fit into any 40S&W pistol.
Remember that a lot of double action wonder 9 pistols have too fat of a grip even when they just use 9mm.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
The .38 Super got a bad rap because it was the same size as the .38 Auto and sometimes a .38 Super round would find it's way into a .38 Auto handgun so eventually the .38 Super was downloaded. If the .38 Super is loaded to it's original specs it's more powerful than the .357 Sig and it's also a straight walled cartridge unlike the .357 Sig which is a plus when reloading IMO.
Most of all the .38 Super is chambered is some really nice old handguns so if you want to shoot those guns you need the ammo... (like Colt 1911's and some newer kimbers)
Most of all the .38 Super is chambered is some really nice old handguns so if you want to shoot those guns you need the ammo... (like Colt 1911's and some newer kimbers)
I suppose I can see the platform size definitely pushing the sig into production. Although it didn't seem to help the G.A.P. any for very long.
If I could get a P220 or P227 in 38 super that would be my immediate favorite. I would think 15+1 would be easily achieved.
+1
If I could get a P220 or P227 in 38 super that would be my immediate favorite. I would think 15+1 would be easily achieved.
BSA1
member
In general bottleneck cartridges feed better than straight wall cartridges.
Tacoma
Member
As others have hit on, the 357 Sig is simply a necked down 40 that gives 357 Mag like performance out of an ordinary duty gun. It attains this with nothing but a barrel swap (either from the manufacturer or the buyer.) This makes them cheap to market and smart to purchase. The 357 Sig has become attractive to many PD's/agencies as it keeps the logistics simple and the choices of "modern handguns" wide. None of these agencies would be lining up to buy 1911's in 38 Super despite the closeness of the ballistics.
FWIW, I own two 357 Sig barrels that fit in an M&P 40 and Glock 22. Both are fun to shoot and easy to change back to 40S&W when they are not.
BTW, the 357 can be easily hand loaded down to 9mm specs to give the gun triple duty at no additional costs.
FWIW, I own two 357 Sig barrels that fit in an M&P 40 and Glock 22. Both are fun to shoot and easy to change back to 40S&W when they are not.
BTW, the 357 can be easily hand loaded down to 9mm specs to give the gun triple duty at no additional costs.
They made those, you just have to find one
Magazine capacity and bullet velocity are two advantages of the 38 Super and 38 Super Comp variant.
THE major advantage is that the large powder capacity of the fast 38s generates the large volume of gasses needed to properly run the compensators used in USPSA/IPSC Open Division. Competitors develop loads that produce accuracy AND the gas volume that keeps the sight/gun on target.
A well-tuned 2011 type (i.e. double stack) Open race gun recoils to the rear only, not upward. The competitor can place 2 quick rounds on target and move on. The interval between accurate shots can be 2/10 second or less.
THE major advantage is that the large powder capacity of the fast 38s generates the large volume of gasses needed to properly run the compensators used in USPSA/IPSC Open Division. Competitors develop loads that produce accuracy AND the gas volume that keeps the sight/gun on target.
A well-tuned 2011 type (i.e. double stack) Open race gun recoils to the rear only, not upward. The competitor can place 2 quick rounds on target and move on. The interval between accurate shots can be 2/10 second or less.
Yeah, and they can deafen an entire indoor range at that same speed!
There are now a lot of people running 9mm major guns which seem to drive the comps OK, even though the powder capacity is a lot smaller (usually because they want to build an open gun on a short-action platform, like a Glock 17). Of course, cases fail on those things a little too much for my taste! Little freakin' hand grenades...
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