45 70 vs full grown bull

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horsemen61

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Alright guys a friend of mine swears that with his marlin 1895 guide gun in 45 70 he can shoot threw a full grown bull from brisket all the way threw the rear end so I gotta ask do y'all think it is possible
 
Depends on a lot of things but I would bet it has already been done at least once in the last 141 years.

Could have even been done on one of these.

Bison_skull_pile_ca1870.jpg
 
With the right hard cast flat-point bullet, loaded to +p pressure?

Yes, maybe.

A noted writer for Rifle / Handloader magazine killed two water buffalo bulls with a 45-70 by accident a few years ago.

He failed to notice a second bull standing behind the first one when he shot it.
And the 45-70 shot through them both and kept on going.

It won't ever do it with a standard pressure load, or a jacketed expanding bullet though.

Rc
 
Yes it's possible and it wouldn't even have to be a hard bullet going fast. Lots of recent reports of complete penetration from end to end or side to side on all manner of beasts with a 45-70.
 
It's long been my opinion that much of the energy in typical hunting bullets is used to to deform/mushroom the bullet. That is energy not used for penetration.

Along with that, once it mushrooms there is obviously more frontal area. Also, usually when a bullet deforms, it flips around tail first. Think of the expanded nose as a parachute or fletching on an arrow.

Use a hard cast non-expanding and it's a different game. IIRC, Paco at Sixgunner.com killed a cape buffalo with a .45LC (loaded WAY up) and hard cast. I believe he got thru and thru penetration. During tests I believe he got four feet of penetration in wet newsprint.
 
Maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but probably close with the right bullets and load. But so would a lot of other chamberings. There is nothing magical about the 45-70. It is about bullet choices. With proper bullets a 270, 30-06 or most any common chambering will penetrate 5-6 feet through animals. Moving up to the 375 magnum and larger rounds, they will do far better.

Depends on a lot of things but I would bet it has already been done at least once in the last 141 years.

Could have even been done on one of these.
Click to expand...

Highly doubtful. Despite the legend very few bison were killed with the 45-70. For one thing the original blackpowder loading was underpowered for bison and hunters of the day would only use a 45-70 if they had nothing else. Those loads certainly wouldn't have given this type of penetration.

But the main reason is because the bison herds were pretty much wiped out 10-20 years before the 45-70 was even introduced in 1873. By 1874 laws had been enacted banning bison hunting to preserve the handful that were left. I'm sure a few bison have fallen to the 45-70, but no where near the numbers it is given credit for.

When smokeless powder came on the scene in the 1890's the 45-70 died a quick death after only about 20 years. The round lay dead or dormant for nearly 100 years and was brought back to life in 1973 by Marlin and has only recently caught on. While the round was introduced 141 years ago, it has almost no history except that made up by Marlin advertising.
 
jmr40 said:
... When smokeless powder came on the scene in the 1890's the 45-70 died a quick death after only about 20 years. The round lay dead or dormant for nearly 100 years and was brought back to life in 1973 by Marlin and has only recently caught on. While the round was introduced 141 years ago, it has almost no history except that made up by Marlin advertising...
Click to expand...
Lot's of 45-70s were used in the 20 and 30s to put food on the table, when other firearms were not available or cost money. It's not like the 45-70 disappeared.
 
Be prepared for lots of bull buger

The 45/70 throwing a hard cast lead bullet is tough to stop. There are many instances of end to end penetration in large animals.
All your buddy is saying is that the 45/70 is a hard charging round. He is right. If you want to get picky with the details and prove him wrong ,buy a bull and shoot it .:)
 
bullets

Depends on the bullet, as has been said. With a modern high pressure load, and a solid bullet.....sure.
Pete
 
i shot a herford bull years ago with a 385gr hard cast handload with a heavy load of of imr 3031,the bull was a free range bull and could not be caught to butcher. the shot was at about 70yds with the bull facing me with his head level with his body, i aimed for between his eyes and at shot and he went down so quick i didn,t see it in the scope. the bullet went thru his head and thru his neck and was found just under his spine above his lungs,pretty well mangled. i think a very hard cast or full metal jacketed bullet at the right speed could do it.after going thru the brisket no bones would be hit untill the bullet got to the hind quarters and then may miss bone. eastbank.
 
i found a old picture of the bull shot with the marlin 1895. eastbank.
 

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Highly doubtful. Despite the legend very few bison were killed with the 45-70. For one thing the original blackpowder loading was underpowered for bison and hunters of the day would only use a 45-70 if they had nothing else. Those loads certainly wouldn't have given this type of penetration
Click to expand...

I don't think that is quite right. After 1876 the 45-70 was the standard chambering in the Sharps sporting rifles, and a quite popular one at that. Up until that time the 44-77, more commonly marked on the barrel as 44 2 1/4 was the most popular chambering in the Sharps rifles and was the cartridge most used on the buffalo plains.
Both cartridges were loaded identically, using 75 grs of powder with a 1.1 inch paper patched bullet (410 grs +-). Along with a 70 gr charge with again a 1.1 inch cannelured bullet.
At any rate there are letters to the Sharps company from buffalo hunters claiming one shot killing two bull buffalo at 500 yds..
 
My comment was for the original question. It is an exercise in futility like the 30-06 vs 308 commentaries that seem to endlessly pop up on this site. I can't imagine why the original question would be relevant information for any useful reason, except for the BS jobs that go with beer consumption at the end of the day. But, if it entertains and draws people to the conversation, by all means continue on. I certainly do not have the power to stop such high mindedness.
 
The 45-70 has plenty of ft-lbs. to do it if it takes the path of least resistance. however through the brisket through the vitals then the nasty's and through a hind quarter and out the hide...... pretty impressive worth talking about if it took that path. traveling slow enough so as the bullet doesn't fragment and it retains most of it's weight hhhmmmm..... heck anything is possible
 
Wasn't there another thread about .45-70 and penetration in hunting section about a year or two ago? My personal experiments have shown penetration well in excess of 6' (I rapidly ran out of gelatin) with hot(ish) 500gr solid loads and the only question mark is slight lack of velocity compared to .458WM and .460Wby, which translates to smaller hydrodynamic shock.

All in all, with proper bullets .45-70 is a massive penetrator.
 
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