AR as home defense: two specific questions

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I think he's talking handguns. Short gun as opposed to shotgun.

My HD rig is a 870. I would not feel underarmed with an AR. However, what I'd really like is a suppressed AR in 300 whisper as a general "what just went bump in the night?" gun.

Now all I have to do is save up my ducats for the upper...

Mike
 
I think he's talking handguns. Short gun as opposed to shotgun.

Doh! Sorry. I was thinking "short guns" meaning anything well, uh. Short. Carbines, short length shotguns, pistols, SBR's, etc.



My HD rig is a 870. I would not feel underarmed with an AR. However, what I'd really like is a suppressed AR in 300 whisper as a general "what just went bump in the night?" gun.

Now all I have to do is save up my ducats for the upper...

Suppressed 300 whisper.... droooool!
 
Coronach,

Check out the .50 Beowulf. How does a 600gr subsonic sound to you? This is why I got one, eventually I'll thread the barrel. When I hear a bump in the night I want to bump back pretty hard. :D

Oh yeah Rev, thanks for bringing us back on Topic. I am guilty of drift myself.
 
Thanks all for the good advice.

Someone asked about the "background" of my question; I am a non-tactical, low-speed, high-drag homeowner, husband and Dad who enjoys shooting and training.

I have bunches of guns, but only two (at most) are loaded and semi-available at any time. Being a father...I have to strike a smart balance between readiness and security.

Both of my kids sleep upstairs and our bedroom is downstairs. We have a full-perimeter security system with battery and wireless dialout backup. The house has a full brick facia exterior. These three things, at least in my mind, somewhat mitigate the overpenetration question. Intelligent bullet selection could mitigate it further...?

The AR would be kept in our retreat closet and only the handgun would be used in any kind of clearing...this is just my attempt at avoiding the "overzealous rambo with a machine gun" prosecution. If someone is trying to get into my retreat closet -- most jurors might be able to understand the nature of that situation -- then one might argue that self defense was real. Especially down here in Texas!

My main concern is incapacitating myself with 1) flash and 2) blast should the need ever arise to fire inside my home. Hence my question.

It looks like I need to rethink the AR idea a bit more. Thanks much for the intelligent and civil discussion.

Rich
 
Here is a very nice informative thread from AR15.com. The thread starter is a gun dealer who gets a lot of requests for "What gun should I buy for self-defense" from people who are not willing to put in the time or training necessary to use firearms proficiently. He explains the reasoning behind his recommendations and the type of clientele he frequently encounters.

The user took a new shooter and had them engage a target multiple times under time stress with a 686 revolver, a 12ga with low-recoil 00 buck, and an AR15.

He posted video of the shooter doing the test as well as pictures of the final target results. I think this thread pairs very nicely with some of the things we are discussing here.

EDITED TO ADD:
Doh! Forgot to post the link:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=185474

Both of my kids sleep upstairs and our bedroom is downstairs. We have a full-perimeter security system with battery and wireless dialout backup. The house has a full brick facia exterior. These three things, at least in my mind, somewhat mitigate the overpenetration question. Intelligent bullet selection could mitigate it further...?

I think you are on the right track here.

My main concern is incapacitating myself with 1) flash and 2) blast should the need ever arise to fire inside my home. Hence my question.

It isn't pleasant and might even be a bit disorienting if you've never done it before; but it is something that you can work through.
 
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Richard,

There has been a lot of speculation offered as fact. Allow me to clarify a few things as they relate to your situation.
The house has a full brick facia exterior.
Military M855 will NOT penetrate a brick wall. This is the case with most, if not all, of the commercially available 5.56mm loads. Overpentration is going to be a non-issue unless the round goes through a window or door in your house. It is important to keep in mind the 5.56mm rounds tend to deviate from their inital flight path after passing through a few pieces of sheetrock. I would consider the possibility of your AR-15 posing a down-range hazard to your neighbors to be remote, especially if your neighbors' homes are reasonably distant from your home and/or they are of similar construction.
The AR would be kept in our retreat closet and only the handgun would be used in any kind of clearing
I think this is an excellent strategy. If things progress to the point that you have to use a firearm in your safe room, I believe you will want something more than a handgun, either a shotgun or rifle. Having fired both indoors on several occasions, I can tell you the shotgun produces significantly more blast than an AR-15.
Firing an AR15 inside a building, inside a vehicle, inside whatever is probably very similar to a flash bang grenade going off (I have never experienced a flash bang, so I may be FOS). The sound and the pressure wave are so intense that it is like receiving a physical blow.
This is a gross exageration. Is it significant?Yes. Debilitating?No. It is NOTHING like a flash-bang going off.

This is a reason why many of the people who go in harms way with a carbine are using suppressors. Not so no one will know the gun was fired, but to tame the blast and noise to a level that will allow them to still function.
No. Suppressors are not being used because law enforcement/military personnel were disabling themselves when they fired their M-4's indoors. It is done for two reasons.

The first is to mitigate long-term hearing loss. Even if one only one member of a unit fires, everyone in the room experiences the damaging effects on their hearing. When you have a SWAT team conducting hundreds of entries per year, even with a small number actually involving the discharge of the weapon indoors, the cumulative effects of the exposure can leave you with a highly-trained but partially deaf SWAT team. Investing thousands of dollars and thousands of hours to train someone only to medically retire them is foolish. Thankfully, this is being recognized and addressed.

A person defending their house is in a much different situation. Most homeowners will have occasion to fire their AR-15 indoors once, if ever. While there may be hearing damage, it is nowhere near the level of damage caused by regular/repeated exposure to indoor rifle fire.

The second reason suppressors are being used is to tame muzzle flash in hazardous environments. Firing weapons with a large muzzle blast in environments where there are highly flammable chemicals (i.e. a meth lab) is a recipe for disaster. Suppressors mitigate the risk of igniting volatile chemicals should deadly force be warranted in such an environment.

My main concern is incapacitating myself with 1) flash and 2) blast should the need ever arise to fire inside my home.
It is not going to happen. You will have no problem finishing a fight with your AR-15 inside your house. None. In fact, I would be surprised if you notice the flash/blast when the situation occurs. You may experience some hearing damage as a result, though.


Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
 
Put a G6A2 Vortex from Smith on the AR... Run Frangible ammo... and it will be less likely than a 9MM Parabellum to overpenetrate. I don't recall the article I read that in. I think it was American Rifleman a couple years ago when Frangible came out. Your AR can be a decent HD weapon... but the best one is the one that "naturally" shoots where you are looking. You are going to be more distracted and on edge than you have ever been if you ever have to use it....You want the one you can shoot well without thinking,,, but I am not a pro.. I could be wrong. My opinion and $5.00 will get you a cup of coffee almost anywhere in the Continental USA :evil:
 
Even a 12 guage at extremely close ranges? Interesting

Short gun=archaic sourdough speak for handgun.

The AR would be kept in our retreat closet and only the handgun would be used in any kind of clearing

Hmm. IMHO you've got it backwards. Room clearing is work for an AR, not a handgun. The handgun is good at being concealed and being right there by your bedside. It's a good choice for something to grab when you first suspect trouble. If you really are facing a home invasion, you want to get the long gun post haste and maybe give the handgun to someone watching your back. You want a real argument-ender in your hands.
 
No. Suppressors are not being used because law enforcement/military personnel were disabling themselves when they fired their M-4's indoors. It is done for two reasons.
THREE reasons. The two you mentioned, and hostile identification. If all the Good Guys have suppressors and you hear an unsuppressed shot, you know that Someone, Somewhere is causing A Problem.

Mike ;)
 
"This is a reason why many of the people who go in harms way with a carbine are using suppressors. Not so no one will know the gun was fired, but to tame the blast and noise to a level that will allow them to still function."

The point I was trying to make here is very similar to yours. The primary point here is that many people seem to think that the only reason to ever use a suppressor is so that no one knows that you are firing a weapon. When in fact they are often used to simply attenuate the noise and blast to a tolorable degree: NOT to make the gun silent (although this would be more of a good thing, it isnt' realistic). This goes along with the recent threads on suppressors where people keep talking about sonic boom of supersonic ammunition etc. The suppressor has more uses than assaination attempts at an embasy party behind the iron curtin. In this case the suppressor does everything you mention, and it does it with supersonic ammunition.
If you fire a 5.56 carbine indoors, you will lose your hearing immediately. This puts you at an immediate disadvantage: one of your senses is now gone. So, why should you care ? You just shot the intruder, right ? What if he isn't the only intruder ? You still need ALL of your senses to be most efficient if possible. Any firearm fired indoors is going to have a negative effect on your hearing both long and short term: the carbine will just be worse than most other common defensive firearms.
The muzzle blast/concussion/pressure wave..........whatever you want to call it, is significant. You can splint hairs that it isn't exactly like a flash bang: that was just an easy to picture example. If you only need to fire one shot, it probably won't matter and in the case we are discussing, this is probably the case. But, it is something to be aware of.
 
It seems that a lightweight hollowpoint +P handgun round out a 16 inch barrel will be less likely to penetrate than a standard round out of a handgun. This is assuming that the higher velocity would result in more bullet frangibility or expansion, thus reducing penetration after impact. Thus one could have reduced muzzle flash, noise/blast, overpenetration and recoil with increased natural pointability and of course a fun platform to attach lights and bells and whistles ;) . With one naturally most likely to encounter a squad of heavily armed and armored bandits in the home environment :scrutiny: , this weapon choice will pose a problem. Thus one may choose to have the rifle round as a backup in this very likely event. And one must consider the need for a good bayonet to finish them off after the 100rnd drum is used up :D .
 
444,

I am not trying to start an arguement. You are offering some incorrect information. For simplicity, I am going to refer to the flash, concussion, etc. as muzzle blast.

Let's examine some of what you posted.

This is a reason why many of the people who go in harms way with a carbine are using suppressors. Not so no one will know the gun was fired, but to tame the blast and noise to a level that will allow them to still function.
To me, this implies that one is unable to function after firing an AR-15 indoors. Not true. You can fire an AR indoors and continue to function fine.

The muzzle blast/concussion/pressure wave..........whatever you want to call it, is significant. You can splint hairs that it isn't exactly like a flash bang: that was just an easy to picture example.
Firing an AR15 inside a building, inside a vehicle, inside whatever is probably very similar to a flash bang grenade going off (I have never experienced a flash bang, so I may be FOS).
Okay, you are FOS. Once again, other than there being a flash of light (which is nothing like the flash produced by a flash-bang) and a loud noise (which is nothing like the loud noise produced by a flash bang), it is nothing like a flash-bang. I am not splitting hairs. A rifle shot generates approximately 120 decibels. A flashbang generates around 170 decibels. I have no idea how bright a rifle's muzzle blast is, but I highly doubt it comes close to the 2.4 million+ candlepower a flashbang puts off.

I think if you review my previous posts, you will see that I acknowledged the muzzle blast is significant. That is based on perhaps hundreds incidents where I fired either an M-4 with military ammunition or an AR-15 with a commercially available loads indoors without the benefit of hearing protection. You on the other hand portray the muzzle blast as debilitating. I am not sure what you base your claims on.

The sound and the pressure wave are so intense that it is like receiving a physical blow.
If the physical blow you describe is a mild slap to the face, sure. But that statement, when taken in context makes it seem as though you are hit in the head with a 2x4. I would call the muzzle blast uncomfortable. Some would call it painful. It is not debilitating.

If you do it anyway, I would probably go with a light bullet designed for varmint hunting: Nosler Ballistic Tip, Horandy V-Max, or something along that line. A bullet desigend to instantly fragment. I have never fired one at a person inside a building so again, I may be FOS but I have shot a variety of animals with them and think this would be the answer to your question. The suggestion of the 45 grain bullet is probably right along this line.
I think Jeff White addressed this issue nicely. I would add that there are law enforcement and military organizations who are just as concerned about excessive muzzle blast, overpenetration and terminal performance as the homeowner. Ammunition manufacturers have been very good about meeting their needs. I would also add that since, by you own admission, you have no idea how it will work on a person, less was probably more in this case.

If you fire a 5.56 carbine indoors, you will lose your hearing immediately.
Not in my experience. I experienced an effect that was more like having water in my ear. It is important to note that the noise is much worse at the other end of the barrel.

This puts you at an immediate disadvantage: one of your senses is now gone.
I have a pretty good idea of the importance of being able to hear in a tactical environment. Unfortunately, no one was interested in how Richard planned to use his rifle. He plans to use it to defend the choke point leading to his saferoom. The ability to hear is probably not going to be as critical as rapidly incapacitating an assailant if things progress to this point.

Any firearm fired indoors is going to have a negative effect on your hearing both long and short term: the carbine will just be worse than most other common defensive firearms.
I am going to assume by common defensive firearms you are talking about hanguns, shotguns and rifles. It is also worth noting than many handgun rounds are going to have a similar effect on his hearing without the attendant increase in ability to end the fight. A shotgun is way worse than an AR and an AR is probably one of the least objectionable of the rifles suitable for defense.

If you only need to fire one shot, it probably won't matter and in the case we are discussing, this is probably the case. But, it is something to be aware of.
Again, you are implying that it will be difficult to get more than one shot off indoors. Again, not true.

I am sure you had the best of intentions when you posted, but your statements are misleading. By your own admission you are drawing comparisons with no experience and recommending equipment based on speculation. When you consider that Richard is relying, at least in part, on the information provided to help protect his family, that is irresponsible.
 
Blackhawk, I was the one who originally compared the muzzle blast to a flash bang. It had nothing to do with the light from the muzzle flash, but more to do with the pain it caused to anyones ears in the immediate area. And yes I have used real def-tec flashbangs in the field and know what they sound and look like.120 or 170 decibles both cause quite alot of pain and ringing in the ears and semi permanent hearing loss

I had a 3 round burst go off about two feet to my side from a 14" AR and it was quite painfull. No I didn't drop to the ground or anything like that, but I did have to stop for a moment and make sure my head was on straight and to figure out what was going on. All I could hear was ringing and muffled voices. They were actually yelling, but it sounded muffled to me. The ringing didn't subside for almost a full day. The Agent who let the round stated he didn't think it was that loud and said he felt fine. If your the one shooting you'll probably be fine, but try to make sure any loved ones are in another room.
 
Nyresq,

Thanks for clarifying. My point is this: If we are going to paint a picture, let's paint one that is accurate. I trust that Richard is an intelligent individual capable of analyzing facts and determining his own needs. But, ommitting relevant information or providing information based on supposition or speculation does a disservice to the individual posing the question.

Look at the statement from your original post
been on the receiving end of the Dial tone from a fellow agent letting a 3 round burst go from a 14" AR in a cement housing project hallway. it actually caused a bit of pain and some blurring of vision for me... very similar to a flash bang.
Based on this statement, one could easily conclude that frining an AR indoors is a debilitating to the shooter. Subsequently you make two statements that have a significant effect on the interpretation of your earlier comment.
The Agent who let the round stated he didn't think it was that loud and said he felt fine.
Information that was probably more relevant to original question than that which you originally provided.
If your the one shooting you'll probably be fine, but try to make sure any loved ones are in another room.
Again, more relevant information than that which was originally provided.

What has not been said is that family members positioned behind the shooter are not going to suffer nearly the same effects as a person who has an AR discharge two feet to the side.

If we are going to try and help someone out, let's give him the information he needs and let him decide what is best.
 
Short Rifle

A 16'' barreled AUG is 28" long, it is actually quicker and easier to fire a double tap to the left, and then to the right, than with a hand gun, and with way more accuracy.
It’s all about a rigid platform, can also be used one handed.

Hearing loss? Sure, over a period of time, my right ear is lower than the left, in hearing acuity.

Rifles win, at close range or far. Pulverize organs, bits of hit body parts act as secondary shrapnel, more damage.

Rifle hits cheek, it goes off.
 
Do SWAT teams, etc, not wear electronic hearing protection for entry/indoor raids? If not, why not? It would seem to be the most logical choice.

Luckily I've never had to fire a weapon indoors, and I hope that never changes. Just from my personal experience firing under covered range benches though, I've got to say that I never want to find out what it is like to fire any centerfire rifle indoors with no hearing protection.

Something that hasn't been addressed so far is that not all people hear things in the same way. Hearing is a perception that varies from person to person (in my observation). Gunshots and other noises that bother me don't bother my buddies as much, and vice versa. While my experience is certainly not vast, I would feel better reaching for a shotgun indoors... based partially on ballistics, and partially on the noise/pressure impulse of a shot. Outdoors, I'd perfer an AR carbine for pretty much any confrontation at any reasonable distance, based on my personal familiarity/proficiency with the platform.

Thanks Blackhawk, 444, nyresq for the input.
 
Blackhawk, I am not going to argue with you either except one point. You post: "A rifle shot generates approximately 120 decibels". This number is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than a SUPPRESSED AR15. Just to give an idea of how low this number is, , 120 decibels is approximently as loud as a .22LR that is suppressed.
An unsupressed AR15 is approx. 165 to 167 decibels.
A suppressed AR15 is approx. 130-137 decibels.

That data can be found here: http://silencertests.com/reviews/list.pl?sortby=suppressed
 
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ttbadboy asked;
Do SWAT teams, etc, not wear electronic hearing protection for entry/indoor raids? If not, why not? It would seem to be the most logical choice.

Some do and some don't. It's only been recently that technology has caught up with the need to have both hearing protection and radio communication. The sets that are durable enough for that kind of use are pretty expensive which is the reason many SWAT teams don't use them.

Jeff
 
444,

Thanks for catching my mistake. You are absolutely correct. I was also slightly off on the flash-bang. It approximately 174 decibels, making it roughly ten times more intense than an AR-15.
 
Question:

This may have been asked before, but is there any record of a civilian using (firing) an AR to defend him/herself at home or business?

I have always been a little interested in that debate, but never have seen any real life examples.
 
I ripped through a 30 round mag out of a 16 inch AR in a tiny little concrete basement room once. It was LOUD. :D Remarkably loud. Rattle your eyeballs in your skull loud. Fun too. The concussion was remarkable, but it wouldn't have kept me from being able to fight.

I've shot shotguns inside small rooms also, and inside a car. Also very loud. Between the two I felt that the AR was louder in such a tight space, but that is probably totally subjective.
 
If you have time to go get a gun, get earmuffs too

the electronic kind, or the Norton "sonic' earvalve sort of plugs. Me, I'd much rather have "just" a pistol, body armor, and a flashlight, than any longarm, for home defense. If I need more than a pistol, I probably need grenades, buddies, smoke, gas mask and an escape tunnel, because it's the jbt's I'd be up against.
 
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