.223/5.56 carbine for self defense

[ndolson]

IMHO it really depends on just what your trying to protect. But in most all cases the .223 is a very poor choice. Unless you live alone, @ least 1/2 mile from the closes neighbor, and have a full auto with a 30 round clip or drum.

um...

I'd like to know where you get your wealth of knowledge from. The fact you called it a clip from the get go makes me negate the rest of your post.

it is not so nearly intimidating as hearing the rack of a shotgun followed by a 12" hole in the wall or door.

roflmao are you serious? those bad guys are gonna crap their pants as soon as you rack that slide? you want to alert your armed bad guy that you're there so he can be ready to attack you? and know that you have at most 6 or so shots?

And just remember, if you are vindicated in criminal court the attacker and his family can always sue you in Civil court.

Yeah, maybe if you live in a communist state. Out here in the free world, there are laws in place to prevent that from happening.

non-THR content removed

Maybe you should visit this site first www.theboxotruth.com and then come back when you've had those silly notions wiped from your mind. If you're going to try and advise someone on issues that could affect their livelihood, try to put a little more thought into it. I'd be really sorry if someone took your post to heart.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If we are dropping the PC requirement, then I would suggest Hornady 55gr TAP FPD in the AR you already own. This is essentially a Hornady VMAX. You can see gel shots of the 40, 55, and 75gr Hornady rounds here (7th post from bottom).

The 55gr VMAX does about 8-9" in bare gel with most fragmentation occuring in the 3-6" range. This is under the FBI requirements (12") but should minimize your overpenetration concerns without sacrificing too much terminal performance. The 40gr literally explodes and penetrates about 5". If you decide either of those is less penetration than you want, then the Hornady 75gr TAP is well-recognized as a top performer in the terminal effects department and meets all FBI criteria.

If you plan on using a handgun then use some home defense rounds like the Glaser brand.

Well, we just had the discussion of why birdshot from a 12ga is ineffective. So I am going to disagree and say that #12 birdshot from a handgun (Glaser Blue) or #6 birdshot from a handgun (Glaser Silver) is a not a good choice for self defense. You can do a search of THR and find several real-life examples of failures (including a store owner who was forced to fire through one-way glass to stop a robbery and an x-ray of a trauma victim in Johanesburg, SA).

 

[Harley Quinn]

Bartholomew,
That picture (blown out primer) is a good one to put over at the high pressure of .223 being displayed at the high pressure thread

Being a "Mod" you will be able to find it

The birdshot situation with a handgun for self defense is not all that bad especially if you hit them in the face IMHO...Second shot would not be BS though

 

[benEzra]

I don't understand why you believe a .223 will not over penetrate like a 12ga would ? Have you read this :http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

For home/apartment defense the .223 will be more likely to over penetrate and kill a neighbor than your 12ga. will. I know of at least one case where a guy had an AD with an AR .223 and shot the neighbor next door. The neighbor was asleep in bed, and was shot through the wall while in bed.

Slvr Surfr,

The box'o'truth tests primarily involved FMJ, and (I think) one test of some FMJ-profile sintered metal target bullets designed to disintegrate when they strike metal. Neither would be the best choice for defensive use in a non-rural area, IMHO, due to greater penetration of typical building materials.

40- and 55-grain jacketed hollowpoints penetrate less in typical building materials than 9mm JHP and most buckshot loads, according to most studies I've seen. Yes, they don't penetrate as deeply in gelatin as 55-grain and heavier non-HP's (especially the 40's), but under certain circumstances I think it is an appropriate tradeoff.

 

[hags]

Quote:
Our swat team uses soft point .223 55grn (Federal I believe) and it works wonderful. I was talking with one member and he said they switched to the M4 with .223 softpoints from the MP5 because of increased stopping power and far less over penetration. According to him and the firearms detail who run the patrol rifle program, the softpoints rarely ever exit the badguys and when they do its just a few small pieces.

Does Federal make a 55gr softpoint that is not bonded? The Bonded softpoints they sell are some of the best penetrators in .223 available.

The department I metioned earlier in this thread uses Federal Tactical 62 gr as their main round and Remington 55gr soft points as their secondary.

Soft points have reduced penetration, especially in "hard" barriers and reduced ricochet potential as expounded on below. This quote is from www.policeone.com.

The .223/5.56mm

The move away from pistol caliber carbines to the .223 Remington cartridge (military 5.56 mm) has been written about in great detail. The wide range of available bullet types for this caliber allows users to select ammo types according to their tactical needs.

In a recent Chicago-area shooting I described in Part 1, pistol and .223 rifle fire proved ineffective in penetrating the automobile sheet metal and laminate glass. The .223 bullet type deployed that day was not designed to penetrate hard barriers. While the final open-air head shot with the .223 proved immediately incapacitating, reports of numerous officer-involved shooting incidents in recent years show many took place on the street and included gunmen taking cover behind autos and other barriers.

In such situations, officers can address vehicle or barrier penetration with the Federal Tactical bonded bullet, the Hornaday TAP barrier penetrator or the recently introduced Corbon DPX solid copper round. Each of these bullets is designed to penetrate barriers with minimal deflection while retaining sufficient weight and velocity to make deep wounds. A number of federal agencies (e.g., DEA, FBI, etc.) issue the 62-grain Federal Tactical round as the primary duty load for the above reasons. The Corbon load demonstrates excellent performance against sheet metal and auto glass, losing less than 10 percent of its weight.

Yet populated, high-density locations may require the reduced penetration and ricochet potential found in more frangible projectiles, such as a 55-grain soft-point. Deploying the .223 with 55-grain soft point in a residential structure, school or workplace environment reduces the likelihood of a bullet passing through multiple walls or doors and striking an unintended person.
In addition, the .223 effectively penetrates soft body armor. This is a real consideration as violent criminals increasingly use body armor, such as the bank robbers involved in L.A.'s North Hollywood Bank shootout.

 

[000Buck]

Unless you are looking for a reason to buy another gun, what is wrong with #4 buckshot again?

 

[SpeedAKL]

This may sound extremely naive, but even in this media-saturated, paranoid world is it really a concern that you will be jailed for protecting yourself from someone trying to harm or kill you just because you used an Evil Black Rifle to do it?

 

[ECVMatt]

I would look at using you .30-30 with..

Federal 125 grn. HP's. This is an often over looked round for SD, but has shown me good potential on a few coyotes I have shot using it. It tends to expand rather quickly, but penatrates about 14 inches or so on a chest shot coyote.

Matt

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

A number of federal agencies (e.g., DEA, FBI, etc.) issue the 62-grain Federal Tactical round as the primary duty load for the above reasons.

You do realize that this specific round mentioned is a SP, as well as the 55gr bonded tactical round?

 

[hags]

c-grunt posted this:

Our swat team uses soft point .223 55grn (Federal I believe) and it works wonderful. I was talking with one member and he said they switched to the M4 with .223 softpoints from the MP5 because of increased stopping power and far less over penetration. According to him and the firearms detail who run the patrol rifle program, the softpoints rarely ever exit the badguys and when they do its just a few small pieces.

RockyMtnTactical posted this:

Does Federal make a 55gr softpoint that is not bonded? The Bonded softpoints they sell are some of the best penetrators in .223 available...

I posted this as part of an article on .223/5.56 use in LE:

Yet populated, high-density locations may require the reduced penetration and ricochet potential found in more frangible projectiles, such as a 55-grain soft-point.

I think you can conclude that the 55gr soft point would make a decent home defense round, without the worry of overpenetration or high risk of ricochet. This, my experience and other PDs going the same route seem to me to be a good test bed for actual use ballistics testing.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I would look at using you .30-30 with..

Federal 125 grn. HP's. This is an often over looked round for SD, but has shown me good potential on a few coyotes I have shot using it. It tends to expand rather quickly, but penatrates about 14 inches or so on a chest shot coyote.

Matt

I have found that to be true with the pistol bullets in a 35 rem lvr action myself.
Pistol bullets are quicker to mushroom and expand at lower velocity, so when loaded up in a rifle they are very destructive and will not penetrate (or will if soft tissue only)

You need to find a happy medium. It really seems to be obsessive on these boards, and the continual in-fighting as to what will do this or that.

So many variables the best to do is go with what others have mentioned and try to be in the middle of the road, I'd mention on this one.
Are you shooting long distance or are you in a middle of the road situation?

This is one of the major concerns of LEO. Based on expert (so called or not) advise they attempt to make a good decision regarding the weapon and round to carry on duty in the jurisdiciton they have.

Some of the worst second guessing is when one department has a 40 cal and another department, across the double yellow, has a 9mm for the same job

Practice is the key and having the weapon avaliable to use is another.

 

[chaim]

Unless you are looking for a reason to buy another gun, what is wrong with #4 buckshot again?

From what I've read #4 buck is the heaviest you can do without much overpenetration risk (doesn't answer your question yet, it is only why I don't want anything heavier in an apartment). Also, #4 buck is about the lightest you can go with and still have sufficient power to stop an attack, #4buck is the minimum effective self-defense load in a shotgun. While minimum is "good enough" I suppose, I don't really want just minimum stopping power. It will be OK as a stop-gap until I can buy a carbine in a more suitable caliber, and there is a chance I may go with it long-term, but I'd feel more comfortable with something else that may give me both (relatively) low overpenetration potential with higher power levels. The one that comes closest seems to be the .223/5.56 at indoor home defense ranges.

I would look at using you .30-30 with..

Federal 125 grn. HP's. This is an often over looked round for SD, but has shown me good potential on a few coyotes I have shot using it. It tends to expand rather quickly, but penatrates about 14 inches or so on a chest shot coyote.

That is a direction I haven't really considered. I suppose with some loads, guns in chamberings that normally wouldn't be suitable (too much overpenetration) may be OK. So, hunters, I'd be interested in your experiences with different loads in:
-.357mag*
-.44mag*
-.45LC*
-30-30
-.223/5.56
-(maybe) 22-250, .308 and .243 (would make a BLR and BAR possible)
I'm looking for loads that don't overpenetrate (they shouldn't exit the target), while still penetrating between 8-14", preferably in deer and similar size animals.

*I am primarily looking for info on the revolver calibers in a carbine, but revolver performance would also be welcome.