.223/5.56 carbine for self defense

[bhk]

I think a shotgun would be the best choice. You are right about the Browning BLR not being available in .223, but it IS available in 22-250. With light bullets, it would pretty much mimic the .223 in performance (slightly more effective) and pretty much shake the the evil image the .223 has in the eyes of some folks. The 22-250 is a very popular varmint cartridge and the BLRs are very slick, fast-action lever rifles.

 

[ny32182]

If you are worried about overpenetration, I think the *key* scenario you have to worry about is if you miss. If you get a torso shot, only big, obviously-overkill loads are going to have big energy upon exit. You can see that from all the gel tests. Hits aren't the problem. Misses are...

The key with .223 is ammo selection. Milspec ammo will cut through building materials like the rifle round that it is. You don't want milspec ammo if you are worried about overpenetration in an apt. You should probably consider a 40-50gr frangible "varmint" bullet. This round will generate a much shallower wound than milspec ammo, but should still penetrate far better than birdshot (which I would never consider for home defense). In the event of a miss, frangible .223 should also break up considerably in just a few layers of drywall, and is probably the best overall compromise you will find in any rifle round if overpenetration is a concern.

As far as the gun, a used wood-stocked Mini-14 with a small mag is as cheap and as "hunting rifle" looking as it gets.

 

[txgolfer45]

A shotgun loaded with 7 1/2 or 8 shot is probably your best bet in an urban home defense scenario (especially an apartment). If you lived out in the country, I could see the AR type rifle in .223.

 

[jpwilly]

You're not going to like this either. I don't believe the 223 and or most rifles / carbines to be good PC home defence. You should get a revolver if you want to be PC + you can keep it on your person instead of at arms reach out in the open sitting arround. You plan to have guests? Parties? etc...where's your carbine then? Handguns are pretty good for home defence especially in an apartment.

 

[Browning]

.223 Rem/5.56 NATO ammunition tests with various ammo.

Concealment does not equal cover military video of penetration tests.
http://www.militaryvideos.net/videos.php?videonum=43

Tests on 5/8 gypsum with various calibers
http://www.huts.com/Huts%27sBallisticTest.htm

.223 Rem Horandy TAP ammo through auto glass.
http://www.bushmaster.com/le/tests/automotive_glass_penetration_performance.htm

MSNBC puts body armor to the test.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18771904/

Bullet penetration on a Buick.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot6.htm

Bullet penetration on standard drywall.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm

Tests on 1/2 inch drywall.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Wounding effects of .223 Rem/5.56 Nato
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs26.htm

Best Choices for defensive ammo
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=237

Fragmenting .223 Rem ammo
http://accutecusa.com/

.223 Rem ammo review.
http://www.aaconsult.com/ammoreview/html/_223_reviews.html

I've always heard that in .223 Rem the 40 grain HP was best for Home Defense as it supposedly doesn't penetrate through drywall, wood, cinder block and/or brick like some of these others, but I was unable to find any tests that confirmed that with video or pictures. Since it's meant for varmint shooting it disinegrates on impact and doesn't hold together once it strikes something.

So if that's true then it gets rid of two kinds of varmints.

 

[chaim]

Hyptnogator:
I've thought about the .44mag lever rifle loaded with .44spl. It would be a sentimental favorite since I absolutely love lever rifles, and it certainly looks PC. I'm also pretty fast with a lever rifle (I can get off aimed shots almost as fast with a good lever rifle as I can with an SKS or AR). However, even the lightly loaded SWC is a big heavy bullet, and out of a carbine length barrel it will have some velocity to it. How is the penetration/overpenetration? It is higher than .223, but other than that I'm not sure what it would compare to. This is an idea I would love to use if I can.


BHK:
22-250 is an interesting idea and one that would let me use the BLR. However, I have two concerns having not seen any ballistic gelatin tests for this round:
1) Will it penetrate enough to incapacitate an attacker
2) Will it overpenetrate and exit the attacker putting other people at risk

You should probably consider a 40-50gr frangible "varmint" bullet.

NY, personally, I don't like frangibles much. With penetration there are two concerns: 1) will it penetrate enough to incapacitate an attacker (it needs to be able to hit major organs and break bones), 2) will it overpenetrate and exit your attacker putting other people at risk. Most of what I've read on frangibles shows #2 isn't much of a risk, but most frangibles don't penetrate enough (sure, the entry wound is impressive, but they stop pretty fast and often won't hit vital organs, and if they hit a bone it is the bullet and not the bone that will shatter). However, you may be right that it may be one of the better answers for an apartment (I'm hoping it isn't the best answer though).

You should get a revolver if you want to be PC + you can keep it on your person instead of at arms reach out in the open sitting arround. You plan to have guests? Parties? etc...where's your carbine then? Handguns are pretty good for home defence especially in an apartment.

JP, I agree that a handgun is a vital part of anyone's home defense plans. However, as they say, a handgun is just so you can fight your way to the shotgun/carbine (something more effective than a handgun). I have several handguns that take their turn as home defense guns (and I usually have one of my J-frames loaded up serving as CCW around the house). I do agree that the revolver is more PC than the auto pistol, and being in Balt City (one of the more anti-gun jurisdictions in a particularly non-gun friendly state) that is an issue. I may replace my 1911s for home defense duty with a .44LC or .44spl revolver (and until then use my .357mags loaded with .38+P)

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Just some quick points from the 20 other discussions we have had on this subject that I know chaim has read; but apparently others have missed or forgotten:

A shotgun loaded with 7 1/2 or 8 shot is probably your best bet in an urban home defense scenario

I've talked to a man who was shot in the upper torso from 15' with birdshot from a 12ga (probably #8). He made his own 911 call and was conscious until the paramedics arrived. He survived because the birdshot did not penetrate enough to damage any internal organs. I've told this story before as well as linked to other examples (13yr old girl shot in the head from across the porch survives by fleeing her attacker).

Let's look at the numbers, according to this Guns and Ammo article, #4 Hevi-Shot bird shot penetrates 3.6" in ballistics gel. #4 lead birdshot penetrates 3.2" in gelatin. For an average male, your heart is going to be about 2-3" (and behind the sternum) at the absolute best profile possible. Now throw in an intermediate barrier, an arm, a weapon, or practically anything and you have an impressive surface wound; but one that will not physiologically stop an opponent.

The shotgun can be a fine HD weapon; but the birdshot recommendation is a bad one IMO unless your attacker is only 4" deep. You need a heavier shot to make the shotgun effective and you need to pattern your shotgun so you know how much of that shot is going to miss the torso entirely and zip through the neighbor's apartment.

You should probably consider a 40-50gr frangible "varmint" bullet.

People tend to use frangible and varmint interchangeably because they are both designed to break up on targets quickly; but technically, a frangible bullet is a training round made of compressed sintered metal. They are usually less reliable for function and often have the same underpenetration problems that birdshot has.

Varmint bullets are just coventional hollowpoints or ballistic tip bullets that are lightweight and moving out at very high velocity. They function more reliably than frangibles; but they also can have penetration issues. You need to know the gel numbers for your selected round and decide if that is adequate for your needs.

One thing to remember for any home defense scenario is that your attacker will likely not be presenting the classic front-on unobstructed shot to the center mass of his thoracic cavity. In fact, if you are justified in using lethal force, there is a very good chance he will have his arms out in front of him blocking that zone, as well as a decent sized chunk of metal in those arms. The arms alone can be equivalent to 4-6" of gel penetration for a round... so your round the penetrates 7" of ballistic gel is now penetrating 1-3" of the torso and your "special home defense Glaser" round is now not reaching the torso at all.

chaim, too bad Hornady does not make something like the 110-gr VMAX in .30-30 for their Leverevolution line. Something like that would probably meet your needs very well. If you already have a reliable semi .223 that will serve in the HD role, you might consider setting aside the new rifle money to talk with a defense attorney, explain your concerns and get his recommendations on how to mitigate those concerns.

 

[chaim]

I've always heard that in .223 Rem the 40 grain HP was best for Home Defense as it doesn't penetrate through drywall, wood...

Pretty much every caliber, including .22lr, will penetrate standard construction materials. My issue isn't with what happens if I miss since any chambering will be dangerous in that situation. My worry is with OVERpenetration, you hit the target and the round exits your attacker with enough energy to still penetrate construction materials and be a threat to your neighbor. Most experts and tests seem to confirm that the .223/5.56 is even better in limiting this kind of overpenetration than most handgun rounds.

 

[Browning]

chaim : Pretty much every caliber, including .22lr, will penetrate standard construction materials. My issue isn't with what happens if I miss since any chambering will be dangerous in that situation. My worry is with OVERpenetration, you hit the target and the round exits your attacker with enough energy to still penetrate construction materials and be a threat to your neighbor. Most experts and tests seem to confirm that the .223/5.56 is even better in limiting this kind of overpenetration than most handgun rounds.

That would be my worry as well. It seems like most of the .223 Rem/5.56 ammo penetrated more than most people think though (than I thought anyway). As far as I knew until recently the .223 wasn't supposed to be able to go through 2, 3 or 4 walls, but that belief didn't match up to the evidence.

This one's supposed to fragment though, so I wonder how it would do on drywall and wood.

http://accutecusa.com/

 

[chaim]

...you might consider setting aside the new rifle money to talk with a defense attorney, explain your concerns and get his recommendations on how to mitigate those concerns.

You are probably right. As woof said, my "arsenal" will probably be used against me if charged in a defensive shooting no matter what I used to defend myself. I am going to be in Baltimore City where I will be charged if I find myself in an unfortunate situation where I have to defend myself from an attacker. Talking to a lawyer experienced in such situations may be better than the guessing game.

I can't wait until I can afford to buy a house. At that point I'll be moving to the part of the Orthodox Community that is in Baltimore County instead of Baltimore City (assuming I don't move to another state altogether). Balt. County is so much more sane than Balt. City.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

While I discount the "PC" factor, since to antigunners all guns are bad, another good option could be a coach gun. Stoeger and Remington both sell coach guns in 12 and 20 gauge. They have a couple of big advantages IMO:

1. Intimidation factor. EVERYONE knows what's being pointed at them when looking down two shotgun barrels. You can't rely on this, but since the vast majority of defensive gun uses do not see a shot fired, obviously the intimidation factor is something to consider.

2. They are very short for the barrel length, when compared with a slide action or semiauto.

I have a Stoeger Uplander in 20 bore with 26" tubes. It's not that long. I'm still giving serious consideration to picking up a 20" barreled 20 gauge coach gun, maybe one of the Remington Spartans (made in Russia by Baikal, strong like bull).

Load of choice would be 2-3/4" No.3 buck (.25 caliber balls), whichever one patterns best in the gun.

 

[hags]

I'll address some your concerns from this point of view.
Rifles and shotguns are offensive weapons, at the very least that's the perception.
You also mentioned this:

SKS. 7.62x39 will have far too much penetration to be safe for my needs and with the bayonnet it is definately not a very PC safe choice.

Benelli Nova 12ga, 18.5" barrel with rifle sights. With effective ammo overpenetration may be just a little high for apartment use. Also, with my PC looks concern, I'll at least have to replace it with something else as soon as I can even if I do stay with a shot gun (maybe a wood stocked Mossberg 500).

Winchester 94 in 30-30. Overpenetration would be a huge issue. It is plenty PC enough, and I can get off shots almost as fast as with a semi.

Winchester 94 in .45LC. Maybe, but probably too much overpenetration. Also, something about the .45LC and the Win 94 action isn't quite a perfect fit- I usually have some kind of minor reliability issue every 2-3 boxes of ammo. I hear .357 and .44mag are much more reliable, but definate overpenetration issues if I trade it for a 94 chambered for the magnum chamberings. Maybe a Win 73, Puma, or Marlin in .45LC would work?

Marlin Model 60. Don't laugh, .22lr out of a rifle can be fairly effective. However, it would probably take several rounds, and in Baltimore City (again the PC issue) the more stopping power the better since the fewer rounds the better (if it takes 5 rounds of .22lr I can see the prosecutor now talking about how blood thirsty you have to be to put 5 rounds into the sweet innocent kid with a gun who was kicking in your front door).

you know what that sounds like? You have an "arsenal", yes, as silly as it sounds, someone will sell that idea.
If you're seriously looking for a self defense gun then you should consider a handgun. If you are worried about perception then get a revolver. Better yet a model or similiar that's used/been used by police.
You'd be hard pressed to do better than a 4-6" .357 magnum or .38 special six or seven shot.
Just my $.02 worth.

 

[woof]

Look at it this way - whatever you get you will be practicing with it and fondling it a lot more than you will be using it in self-defense (probably never). Since it sounds like you really want a levergun and your main concern is overpenetration, get whatever lever you want and get some low power loads (commercially or made for you) to keep it loaded with for SD. You can get a .30-30 load that will not come out a BG's back and go on through a wall.

 

[chaim]

another good option could be a coach gun

If I decide to stay with a shotgun, I may consider that. Coach guns are nice, and I've wanted one for a while. Giving myself one more reason for one may put it on top of my list to be my next buy. However, I will be in Baltimore City. Home invasion isn't an impossible scenario. I'd feel much more comfortable with more rounds (maybe I could buy 2 coach guns ).

you know what that sounds like? You have an "arsenal", yes, as silly as it sounds, someone will sell that idea.

If you think that those five rifles and one shotgun (in addition to the quoted list, I mentioned my AR in the previous paragraph) could be spun to look like an arsenal, then my handgun collection and stockpile of ammo may really look bad.

I'm back to the idea of checking with a Baltimore area lawyer just to review the issues I'll be facing.

Anyway, I may just drop the PC look issue. If to protect myself in that manner I'd have to sell 3/4 of my gun collection then maybe I should stick with just worrying about overpenatration (don't want to hurt a neighbor) and capability (the fewer shots the better, especially in an anti-gun climate where extra shots to end an attack can be spun as "overkill") and just have a really good lawyer on hand to handle the "spin" issue that I would be facing.

I guess I could keep most of my guns in storage but:
1) There is nothing that says a prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney wouldn't bring them out anyway since they are my guns.
2) Even in a climate controlled unit they aren't that well climate controlled. Humidity/moisture could be a big problem
3) How well would they really protect my guns from theft? I could buy a safe, but there would definately be no where to bolt it.
4) Legality? When I first got my storage unit for the guns, I checked with the couple running the place and they had no problem with it. Since then, I heard the speech the new operators gave to someone when he rented one. They claimed that storing guns, ammo or explosives in a storage unit were now all illegal.


I am very grateful (for more reason than legal exposure of course) that the chances of having a violent home invasion or some other attack in the home is extremely low.

 

[txgolfer45]

Chaim,

You've mentioned owning a Benelli Nova and 1911's. Look no further. You have the basics for what you need for SD. Train with those and forget about the rifle idea, for now, for SD. The Nova is a 12 ga pump shotgun. Brown wood doesn't make it less PC. Although, I wouldn't talk you out of getting a Remington 870!

 

[meef]

Info from Hornady's site for consideration:

Hornady (Dept. ST, P.O. Box 1848, Grand Island, NE 68803; 308-382-1390; www.hornady.com) manufactures a line of ammunition called "TAP" (for Tactical Application Police) that has been available only to law-enforcement and military units. Until now. Recently, the company introduced a similar line for personal protection. This new line of ammunition is referred to as TAP FPD, with the FPD suffix indicating "for personal defense."

The line includes rifle ammunition, handgun ammunition, and shotgun loadings. The rifle ammunition comes in .223 Remington with 55-, 60-, and 75-grain loadings that are said to be "exceptionally accurate and consistent with enhanced terminal performance for rapid expansion and fragmentation to reduce the risk of collateral damage due to over-penetration or ricochet." In .308 Winchester there are 110-, 155-, and 168-grain loadings with high ballistic coefficients (B.C.) that are reported to produce match accuracy with rapid fragmentation for dramatic wound cavities and a reduced risk of over-penetration.

The handgun ammunition includes 9mm with 124- and 147-grain loads, .40 S&W with 155- and 180-grain loads, and .45 ACP with 200- and 230-grain loads. The handgun rounds are loaded with the Hornady XTP (Extreme Terminal Performance) bullets.

 

[hags]

If you think that those five rifles and one shotgun (in addition to the quoted list, I mentioned my AR in the previous paragraph) could be spun to look like an arsenal, then my handgun collection and stockpile of ammo may really look bad.

Yes, because I guarantee you that the "normal" people on the jury will be told that you are part of the gun violence problem.
Normal people don't "stock pile" an "arsenal" of guns and ammo, that is, unless you're a dealer.

4) Legality? When I first got my storage unit for the guns, I checked with the couple running the place and they had no problem with it. Since then, I heard the speech the new operators gave to someone when he rented one. They claimed that storing guns, ammo or explosives in a storage unit were now all illegal.

Not only that but when they get stolen and used in a crime you'll face legal charges for that too.
I missed the mention of the 1911s, I would look no further than what you have on hand.

 

[ndolson]

If you think that those five rifles and one shotgun (in addition to the quoted list, I mentioned my AR in the previous paragraph) could be spun to look like an arsenal, then my handgun collection and stockpile of ammo may really look bad.

Don't watch the news much do ya?

As for the topic at hand, I'm constantly mulling over which would be best to use should the unfortunate event happen. I have quite an array to choose from. Maybe a .45 out of my 1911, or some .357 out of my 686, .223 out of my AR15, or slugs out of my shotgun. A 1 oz rifled slug would be a devastating wound, something along the lines of 1000 lbft of energy.


It seems lately, there has been an increasing amount of incidents in home invasions involving 2 or more perpetrators. Then you have to ask yourself is 5, 6, or 7 rounds going to be enough? Maybe a carbine in .223/5.56 with a 30rd capacity is the way to go.

Bottom line - use whatever you can hit your target with. A good shoot is a good shoot, regardless of what "evil" weapon you might be using.

 

[hags]

Hornady (Dept. ST, P.O. Box 1848, Grand Island, NE 68803; 308-382-1390; www.hornady.com) manufactures a line of ammunition called "TAP" (for Tactical Application Police) that has been available only to law-enforcement and military units. Until now. Recently, the company introduced a similar line for personal protection. This new line of ammunition is referred to as TAP FPD, with the FPD suffix indicating "for personal defense."

The line includes rifle ammunition, handgun ammunition, and shotgun loadings. The rifle ammunition comes in .223 Remington with 55-, 60-, and 75-grain loadings that are said to be "exceptionally accurate and consistent with enhanced terminal performance for rapid expansion and fragmentation to reduce the risk of collateral damage due to over-penetration or ricochet." In .308 Winchester there are 110-, 155-, and 168-grain loadings with high ballistic coefficients (B.C.) that are reported to produce match accuracy with rapid fragmentation for dramatic wound cavities and a reduced risk of over-penetration.

The handgun ammunition includes 9mm with 124- and 147-grain loads, .40 S&W with 155- and 180-grain loads, and .45 ACP with 200- and 230-grain loads. The handgun rounds are loaded with the Hornady XTP (Extreme Terminal Performance) bullets.

Highly effective ammo. Very accurate.

Local police department that I have ties to recently had a suspect in a car, officiers armed with ARs (16" carbines) opened fire on the approaching vehicle through the windshield. Guess what? All rounds struck the windsheild and were merely peppering the offender, he was unaffected and continued to drive until shot and disabled through the driver's side window which was broken by one officiers .40 department issued handgun.
That department has since switched to two different rounds. One is a AP/penetrator round effective beyond glass and sheet metal and the other is an antipersonnel softpoint.

 

[hags]

Bottom line - use whatever you can hit your target with. A 1 oz rifled slug would be a devastating wound, something along the lines of 1000 lbft of energy.

Absolutely! Shot placement is king! The .22 lr you have is better than the .45 ACP you don't.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Just bought a Kel Tec 16 su ca 223 will be blazing away pretty soon.

I have decided its take down ease and other good points, it will be with me along time along with my model 37 "stakeout" shotgun and seveal of my Glocks and Berettas will be around in various locations, if needed Hmmmm

It is touchy in CA and I find the Kel Tec to be a good one for now. Hope it does not get placed in the "no can have". Politics is a very terrible thing, for freedom (2nd amend) folks.

HQ

 

[chaim]

txgolfer, I have far beyond the basics, however my collection isn't necessarily geared towards urban apartment specific issues (it best addresses HD in a suburban house, CCW, target shooting). I am fine on the handguns (though I may add a big bore, non-magnum, revolver), but on long guns I don't really have anything suitable for my new situation (the shotgun can be made to work with changes in ammo selection).


Meef, that Hornady TAP may be my best option, whether I go with a .223 carbine or stay with a shotgun. It is far more effective than the frangibles, and with less overpenetration than the standard rounds. I may look into it for my handguns as well (though, it is another argument for switching my HD guns to revolvers only again- 200 rounds through an auto to be sure the ammo is reliable in the gun, at those prices, ouch). Hmm, I wonder if that stuff would make the .357mag or .44mag lever rifle more of an option (I do love my lever rifles ). Even independent of PC image issues, I think a lever rifle has a lot going for it for a home defense carbine (relatively good stopping power as revolver rounds do gain an edge in a long gun, relatively low overpenetration compared to a rifle round, long sight radius, quick to get off aimed shots, can top off the mag on the fly, etc.).

Don't watch the news much do ya?

Well, I do, which is partly why I was worried about keeping my defensive guns PC. I guess I was being somewhat naive thinking the image of what I used would be used against me but what was locked in the safe would be ignored. Still, it is possible that the image of what I use will also be used against me as well as the "man with an arsenal" type stuff.


You know, maybe the tactic to use what the police use may work. "What do you mean that AR is just for crazies intent on killing masses of people. But the police have it." Still, you have to know Baltimore City's prosecutors office and jury pool- anything like that makes me very nervous.

Anyhow, lets drop the PC image requirement. It may not be 100% a non-issue (they may use both the image of the gun used for defense as well as the "man with an arsenal" stuff), but it is secondary to suitability in an apartment (need to limit overpenatration), and capability (sufficient initial penetration, power, etc.).

 

[C-grunt]

Our swat team uses soft point .223 55grn (Federal I believe) and it works wonderful. I was talking with one member and he said they switched to the M4 with .223 softpoints from the MP5 because of increased stopping power and far less over penetration. According to him and the firearms detail who run the patrol rifle program, the softpoints rarely ever exit the badguys and when they do its just a few small pieces.

 

[Prdatr]

IMHO it really depends on just what your trying to protect. But in most all cases the .223 is a very poor choice. Unless you live alone, @ least 1/2 mile from the closes neighbor, and have a full auto with a 30 round clip or drum.
With that being said, you should play out the scenario in your head.
1. Will there be one or more attackers (home invasion or cat burglers)
2. Do you live alone or do you have loved ones to protect, and where will they be?
Have you told/gone through a drill with them in case something does take place? Do they know what to do or will they come into the line of fire or potentially become a hostage when they start investigating what the noise is?
1. Where will the gun be when you need it. On the night stand, or in the safe or quick access lock box?
3. Do you have an escape plan or route?
4. If living alone and you know someone is in your place it may be a lot wiser to grab your shorts and cell phone an high tail it out a window (provided your not 20 stories up), RATHER then confront someone (thieves rarely operate alone) and risk the liklihood of being outgunned just to save your plazma TV (that is if you are more fortunate then I and own one).
5. If you don't own a dog and if it is practical to have one by all means do so as they are much better at early detection then we are and a couple of barks and the would be intruders are most likely gone, looking for easier marks.
6. If there are some defensive training classes in your area, take a few so you know how you are going to react in a HIGH STRESS situation when you are awakened from a sound sleep. Have a plan. I just can't stress this enough. Do you investigate the sound first or check on loved ones that may be sleeping first?
7. If you have ever been shot at I can tell you it is no picnic but an intruder is expecting it so when he/she hears a firearm discharge and a a little dust flys because the projectile is of small diameter and traveling at 3,400fps it is not so nearly intimidating as hearing the rack of a shotgun followed by a 12" hole in the wall or door. There are a lot beter choices in home defence then the venerable .223.
Buy a inexpensive home defence shotgun in 12gauge and some #4 Buck with a LED Flashlight strapped to the barrel.
If you plan on using a handgun then use some home defense rounds like the Glaser brand.
And just remember, if you are vindicated in criminal court the attacker and his family can always sue you in Civil court.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

Our swat team uses soft point .223 55grn (Federal I believe) and it works wonderful. I was talking with one member and he said they switched to the M4 with .223 softpoints from the MP5 because of increased stopping power and far less over penetration. According to him and the firearms detail who run the patrol rifle program, the softpoints rarely ever exit the badguys and when they do its just a few small pieces.

Does Federal make a 55gr softpoint that is not bonded? The Bonded softpoints they sell are some of the best penetrators in .223 available...