7.62x51 (.308) bear loads

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there's obviously a strong 30 caliber high power sniper rifle crowd and tactical crowd in here which is why they persecute me for saying their girly 30 calibers with super short cases and 4,000,000,000,000,000 feet per second are not powerful enough to stop a CHARGING BEAR

Yet, you're recommending a handgun with 1/2 the velocity and 1/2 the muzzle energy?

Nobody is persecuting you, they're just pointing out things like ballistics and penetration and bullet expansion. That .30 caliber is going to expand into a larger frontal area than any big bore handgun round.

Not one person here has recommended a .308 as a good bear stopper, just that with the heavier slugs and good shot placement, it will serve.

I do know a few things about grizzlies - I shot these vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRaHIVUnID0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et-a6lYkwOQ
 
So basicaly your saying that John is nothing more than a salesman and you are far more knowledgeable,PUUUUUUUHHHLLLEEEEESSSS. I'll go get my hipwaders on in that case.

Then get your hipwaders. Handguns are lousy choices for stopping big bears.

If you want to quick-draw your .45 Colt and kill this thing when it charges you, then knock yourself out. I'll stand back with some pepper spray, a shovel and a plastic bag to scoop up what's left of you.

DWIGHTSBEAR.jpg
 
nice pic kodiak, on second thought ill end the discussion with this, the only effective round is m1 abrams main gun, i wouldnt use less on a grizzly i encourage everyone to buy a m1 abrams tank. anything else is just plum crazy stopping a bear with a 30 cal pfft you have to have at least a 120 mm cannon. ;)
 
I'm not the one posting about using handguns as a primary firearm for bear, no where in any of my posts did I say that. However I am saying that large caliber heavy cast rifle bullets are way better and more effevtive than any .30 caliber FMJ bullet when comes to stoping an enraged charging grizzly. I have no death wish to hunt one of them monsters with a handgun.
 
No saturno v we are comparing hunting bullets, and cast bullets are hunting bullets the last time I checked. A .30 cal FMJ bullet is far from being an ethical choice for hunting big game animals much less stopping a charging grizzly bear. Oh BTW a 500gr cast .45 cal bullet has a sectional density of .341 compared to the .30 cal 220gr of .331, I may have been born at night but not last night. The .45 bullet will make a bigger hole, drive deeper and cause more tramau any way you slice it. If the .30 caliber FMJ bullets were so great at stopping enraged dangerous game then all of the PH and Guides would be using them in Africa as well. However such is not the case.

Nobody is debating that a 500 gr. 45 cal bullet driven at very high velocity would be more lethal than a 220 gr. 30 cal driven at the same velocity

Assuming non deforming bullets, the 45 cal will drive deeper (assuming same SD as well) if it has the energy to do so....however in a bigger bullet you have more drag as you penetrate the target.

Bullet diameter difference (again assuming non expanding pills) is almost a non factor in the grand scheme of things (think about the size od a bear)

PH in Africa use large caliber rifle for stopping dangerous game because for them dangerous game inclused Rhino, Hippo and Elephant, animals that are order of magnitude bigget and tougher (bone and skin) than a lion or a bear.

And solids are the only choice (whatever the caliber) when dealing with animals the size of Dumbo...against lions they suggest to do not use solids/fmj (regardless of caliber) but quality expanding bullets.

And yes comparing solids or FMJ to expanding bullet in a penetration test is comparing apples with oranges indeed...the fact that they are all hunting bullets is pointless.

Garrett claims that their 44 Mag Hammerheads hardcast outpenetrate a 300 gr, Nosler Partition bullet fired from a 375 H&H....do you really believe that a 44 Mag is a more capable round than a 375 H&H???


======================================================================================================================

Are our 44 Magnum loads really capable of handling grizzly? The answer is yes, in the hands of a reliable shot. From a comparative point of view, our 44 Magnum Hammerheads provide far more penetration than the 300-grain NosIer Partition fired from the 375 Holland & Holland. Also, both bullets present an extremely blunt front end (meplat). Our 44 bullets also offer far greater security from bullet fracture or deflection than any expanding bullet. Since beginning production in 1988 we have had many customers defend themselves from grizzlies, and always our 44 Magnum ammo has provided super-deep penetration, generally to the hips on a frontally shot bear (even when the skull is engaged.)

=======================================================================================================================

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/q&a.asp

If the .30 caliber FMJ bullets were so great at stopping enraged dangerous game then all of the PH and Guides would be using them in Africa as well. However such is not the case

The 303 British 174 gr. FMJ Mark VII bullet was a fantastic lion defense round in Africa....
 
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I'm not the one posting about using handguns as a primary firearm for bear, no where in any of my posts did I say that. However I am saying that large caliber heavy cast rifle bullets are way better and more effevtive than any .30 caliber FMJ bullet when comes to stoping an enraged charging grizzly. I have no death wish to hunt one of them monsters with a handgun.
Believe me 336, if I were actually hunting brown bears, I'd be using a 45-70 with 500grn hard lead. For what the OP is wanting to do though, personally, I think he'll be okay.
 
336a: I'm not the one posting about using handguns as a primary firearm for bear, no where in any of my posts did I say that. However I am saying that large caliber heavy cast rifle bullets are way better and more effevtive than any .30 caliber FMJ bullet when comes to stoping an enraged charging grizzly. I have no death wish to hunt one of them monsters with a handgun
.

Sorry - my bad! Confused you with another poster. I have no problem with large cast bullets at rifle velocities - 2000 fps, say. Handguns, not so much...

That's my .45/70 on the ground next to the wife - and it's loaded with heavy Buffalo Bore rounds.

SummerBerry.jpg
 
Sorry - my bad! Confused you with another poster. I have no problem with large cast bullets at rifle velocities - 2000 fps, say. Handguns, not so much...

Bingo!!

The 45-70, in modern loading format (read high pressure and high velocity) is a serious grizzly whacker...at velocities closer to the original loadings (~1500 fps) is a lousy big bruin stopper according to this US Forest service study, where it ranked almost at the bottom of the pile way far behind the 30-06. As the good old Roy said, Speed does kill indeed....

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf
 
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Look guys bears don't make bluff charges. Every charge is real with the bear deciding the risk of combat is not worth the price. THERE IS NO THING AS A BLUFF CHARGE. In that video several factors probably made the bear decline combat. 1st and foremost is that the bear was facing multiple people. 2nd much like Lewis being chased into the river the bear may have decide that fighting in the water was an unfair endeavor and 3rd the shot of the revolver provided a level of surprise that the bear had not anticipated. I think some bear study is in order for some in this thread and I don't mean that as a insult.

Check out the book Backcountry Bear Basics by Dave Smith. No matter what you read about bears make sure its written by a WILDLIFE BIOLOGIST not some dummy from Field and Stream who's goal is to keep you entertained and subscribing.
 
There is a Federal load which, with a heavy bullet, has quite alot of energy/pressure and is ONLY for use in Bolt-Actions. It has an exactly same trajectory as a lighter, thinner jacketed, shooting brother cartridge. I recommended this pair for a guy afraid to shoot anything over .308 but going on an Alaskan family hunt for caribou and Griz. More than adequate and NOT .300 Magnum for this diminutive-in-spirit-at-least guy. He's apparently so nervous -- poor thing. Anyway, sight it in once, use the same gun on both, just change ammo.

I carried a 5-shot 3" .44 Mag w/Buffalo Bore Light Recoil Hardcast Keith Bullets as my defense. My girlfriend wouldn't even carry the spray!

Al
 
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My post duplicated itself!
Maybe they were Remingtons that had hard n heavy vs. soft n light w/the same trajectory cartridges...
Al
 
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..".308 WILL NOT STOP A CHARGING BEAR INTENT ON KILLING YOU WITH ONE SHOT"...

this blanket statement was almost too unreal to reply to. what do you suppose they used for dangerous game before smokeless powder? single shot 45/70 falling block rifles, ONLY?

one has to take into consideration the "lowly" 30-30 model was considered THE latest/greatest rifle upon being released in the model 94 as the first "smokeless" load, the 30WCF. (designated the common name by marlin's 30/30S clone, which matched the old ~30~ caliber with ~30~ grains of black powder load) it was somewhat the 300 weatherby magnum of it's time. all this adulation when the 45/70 was still a common round.

i have no delusions that 45/70 is not a much better choice for dangerous game. but from the get-go many realized that a fast follow-up shot was not without merit, even in a severely reduced caliber. the one shot stop caliber looks good on paper, but is often not within grasp for real world situations. to say that the single well placed "xxxxxx" caliber will do better than "yyyyyy" rounds of "zzzzz" caliber assumes that the "well placed" predicate was possible.

you feel the premise is always possible. i don't. difference of opinion is often directly related to differing experiences. to say a 22 long rifle will not stop a large bear seems so obvious that it is common knowledge would seem a safe assumption, but it is not true.

up untill WWII, alaskan natives used the mdl 94 30/30 "commonly"* for hunting brown/grizz bear. same for traditional ceremonies, body parts, and commercial sales, as the meat is well beyond disgusting. cleaning/skinning a brownie will make this obvious to any but those who can't smell, at all. to say it was just because that is what they had on hand, or access to, disregards the commercial sales part. they had to take the skin, teeth, claws, skull to the trading post to realize a profit. and i just can't believe that no other weapon was available. either in stock, or by ordering.

had every poor soul who got charged by a brownie been killed, i feel safe saying they would have bought or ordered one of the MANY prewar offerings better suited to the task.

i also feel safe saying that even the short bbld socom the O.P. owns is not only vastly superior in round count, but in ballistics and speed of delivery, also.

or maybe a half century of Tlingit natives were luckier than statistical odds could possibly allow.

gunnie

*what the alaskan fish cops have studied, and found out. on page 69, paragraph #2, from:

http://www.subsistence.adfg.state.ak.us/TechPap/tp214.pdf
 
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Mini14gb: Look guys bears don't make bluff charges. Every charge is real with the bear deciding the risk of combat is not worth the price. THERE IS NO THING AS A BLUFF CHARGE.

That's just not true. Bluff charges are part of the whole threat display package. I've been on the receiving end of both types. When a bear is woofing, popping it's jaws, bristled up, ears high, NOISY, making short charges, it's a bluff - a threat display. You can turn it into an attack - just start running and it'll chase you down. But if you stand your ground or edge away slowly, you're pretty safe. He'll stop or turn. It's a pretty awesome thing to see, but it's just a warning or a test - stand your ground. It's also a good time to shoot into the ground in front of him or zap him in the face with pepper spray. Usually, they're guarding a big dead animal, or it's a sow with cubs behind her. It's territorial and as long you stop going in that direction it's over. He just wants you to go away.

Real charges come in absolute silence, or only with the sound of breaking brush. These almost always start from less than 20 yards - either he stalks in quietly until the final rush, or lies along a trail and let's you approach. He'll come straight at you without a sound, his ears will be flat along his head, his eyes narrowed to slits. It's all business, no display.

I've gone through a number of threat displays and bluffs and always walked away. It's exhilarating, but not as dangerous as you think. I went through one actual charge, and had to be medivaced out in a helo and sewn back together. I still have physical limitations ten years later, and he only had a hold of me for 30 seconds or so before a friend shot him off.
 
Gunnie

The 30-30 (especially with the 170 gr. bullets) it is a very respectable cartridge...the original 45-70 trapdoor load has less energy. I love my Marlin 336.

I'm pretty sure a flat point 170 gr. partition at very short distances, in the right hands, would ruin any brown bear day.....and it did countless time in the past.
 
Apologies in advance, didn't read the whole thread...some parts were a bit boring and to be frank, just stupid and filled with misinformation...but here is my humble thoughts on the subject. First a .308Win. can absolutely do the job with proper shot placement...but I'd rather have a little more bullet in may favor. Secondly, energy is not everything, nor is speed, but diameter (and therefore surface area) and/or weight isn't either. Per my understanding and belief the best cartridges have several features that promote success when ideal conditions aren't present (less than ideal shooting conditions). These include (but are not limited to):
*Bullet Construction-Solids or well constructed expanding ammunition is vital for penetration, which is the key for taking down large dangerous game. Woodleigh bullets (most any), A-Square (most any), Barnes Solids, and Swift A-Frames come to mind.
*Diameter-the larger the diameter (and more importantly frontal area) the greater the crushed tissue, bone, and the better the chances are for hitting a vital organ or deterring mobility (bone and muscle). Frontal area increases exponentially with an increase in diameter so a small change can be important.
*SD (Sectional Density): The greater the mass in relation to the diameter the more it likes to keep on going...penetration is good. An SD of greater than .25 is marginal, .27 is acceptable, and anything more than .29 is good.
*Momentum: Again, it promotes penetration...see a theme here?
*Velocity: Speed Kills...most of the time. When you drive it fast, it takes longer to slow down (when using well constructed bullets that is). Hydrostatic shock is pretty useful in slowing down animals and can cause permanent damage far in excess of directly damaged tissue (but it isn't something that you want to rely on). Over 2000fps is useful, but IIRC 2450fps is about the ideal speed for DG, anything faster is fine, but offers little benefit.
*Energy: Useful, but not unless you can effectively transfer it to the target, a sledgehammer packs a heck of a punch, but won't be very effective if you nail something in the big toe with it. 3k ft-lbs tends to get the job done unless you are looking to drop something big and mean, and a hemisphere away.

The best compromise IMO would be a light, handy, Marlin 1895GG loaded with something heavy (450gr. range is near ideal for this caliber) and fast, a Winchester 1895 .405Win. with a well constructed bullet, or a scattergun loaded with Brenneke Black Magic slugs. All three compromise something in the mix, but are more than adequate with a little practice, and a whole lot easier to tote than a proper DG rifle. To use what you have, I would load up some well constructed bullets in the 180-220gr. range, with a nice stout, but reliable load and a magnum primer for sure ignition. Shoot it enough to ensure it will do the job, before fielding it.

:)
 
Kodiakbeer wrote: That's just not true. Bluff charges are part of the whole threat display package. I've been on the receiving end of both types. When a bear if woofing, popping it's teeth, bristled up, ears high, NOISY, making short charges, it's a bluff - a threat display. You can turn it into an attack -just start running and it'll chase you down. But if you stand your ground or edge away slowly, you're pretty safe. He'll stop or turn - sometimes they pound the ground with their front paws and pop their jaws. It's a pretty awesome thing to see, but it's just a warning or a test - stand your ground. It's also a good time to shoot into the ground in front of him or zap him in the face with pepper spray. Usually, they're guarding a big dead animal, or it's a sow with cubs behind her. It's territorial and as long you stop going in that direction it's over.

Real charges come silently, or only with the sound of breaking brush. These almost always start from less than 20 yards - either he stalks in until the final rush, or lies along a trail and let's you approach. He'll come straight at you without a sound, his ears will be flat along his head, his eyes narrowed to slits. It's all business, no display.

I've gone through a number of threat displays and bluffs and always walked away. It's exhilarating, but not as dangerous as you think. I went through one actual charge, and had to be medivaced out in a helo and sewn back together. I still have physical limitations ten years later, and he only had a hold of me for 30 seconds or so before a friend shot him off.



Sorry kodiak I certainly respect your opinion and I to have taken 2 charges without contact (black bears albeit). However I think I will defer to the wildlife biologist on the issue of bluff charges. Some of these guys intentionally set out to make as many bears as possible charge so they can read their responses to various body languages and intentions.

Alaskan Wildlife Biologist Terry DeBruyn writes: "I have heard the term bluff charges and while that maybe the apt description of the outcome I'm not so certain that is what was on the bears mind at the outset. These kinds of charges are intended to provoke a response, the outcome of the charge depends on that response, stand your ground and it becomes a bluff, run and it becomes a rout."

In essence its not really a bluff. A bluff would imply that NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO the bear IS NOT going to come for an attack. That would be the REAL definition of a BLUFF. It might more aptly be described as a TEST rather than a bluff. Hence making the charge a real charge but the intended victim did not show enough submission to merit making contact.
 
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so your gonna bet on what a wildlife biologist says is a bluff charge? gimme a break

you guys are all delusional by the latest and greatest technology reports in modern gun and hunting magazines... part of the high power 30 caliber cult... a .30 caliber is not powerful enough to stop a chargin bear


Birddog... thanks Dad... I don't need lectures or threats or to be talked down to. I apologize for my curses though
 
Mini 14B .30 caliber is not big enough to stop a charging bear!

For the Posters purposes a .30 caliber rifle will do, and if he wants to take that kinda chance on his life he can do that... i hope he doesn't have to learn the hard way though
 
mini14gb: Alaskan Wildlife Biologist Terry DeBruyn writes: "I have heard the term bluff charges and while that maybe the apt description of the outcome I'm not so certain that is what was on the bears mind at the outset. These kinds of charges are intended to provoke a response, the outcome of the charge depends on that response, stand your ground and it becomes a bluff, run and it becomes a rout."

Gee, it sounds like exactly what I said....

When a bear if woofing, popping it's teeth, bristled up, ears high, NOISY, making short charges, it's a bluff - a threat display. You can turn it into an attack -just start running and it'll chase you down. But if you stand your ground or edge away slowly, you're pretty safe.
 
Greg stop being so critical of others. Your damned right I will take a biologist word on bluff charges. This guy is a foremost authority on bears. Maybe you should google his name and read about him and his work before being so critical. I suppose I should disregard the work of doctors and their studies too. Your the only person in this thread that is being aggressive to others. Maybe you should hit the road and if your losing your patients maybe you should stop following the thread? Many of these biologist have taken over dozens and dozens of charges. Where are you from Greg Connecticut? You obviously know nothing of bears hence everyone thinks your being a tool for your comments.
 
Kodiak thats my point exactly!!! Your response determines the bears actions but the initial charge is real!! And a bluff charge implies that it was never real from the start which is what you implied.
 
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Greg Koziol, perhaps you should look to other threads to increase your post count...just think of the damage you can do. :evil:
 
no they think i'm a tool because i'm putting making them sound stupid by saying that a .30 caliber bullet will stop a charging

Honestly bro.. they can think whatever they want... i'm right and everyone is wrong. A .30 caliber is fine if the bear is 100 yards away but inside of 100 yards and if he's charging your not gonna be able to stop him unless you have some divine intervention or a brain shot

I live in New York not connecticut

listen man... i don't care... you take your .30 caliber and you try to use it to defend yoursel against a chargin bear and when he knaws your leg off and the charge was a real charge and not a "bluff" charge don't say nobody didn't warn you
 
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