7.62x51 (.308) bear loads

[mini14gb]

NWCP,
I will have many rifles on hand but while building it myself (no contractors) and sleeping in a tent I will be keeping the SOCOM as the camp rifle of choice. Not to mention its a nice rifle to carry in brush because of its size.

On a different note I did do some logging today for my lumber. Building season and hungry spring bears are on tap for me. Actually its bear season right now but I have no desire to kill them for sport but I'm not against hunting them. I burned a slash pile 2 weeks ago and had bear tracks in the snow. Thanks for the best wishes!! Its a beautiful piece of property up Skimmerhorn Creek here in Montana.

 

[mini14gb]

scythefwd,
Oh yes a full on charge caught in camera and full vindicated by Alaska Fish and Game as a legitimate bear killing. Ironically they had just shot a large male and were approaching it when a female with cubs saw them and charged.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Ridgerunner - if you are able to put a bullet through both shoulders, it isn't charging you. It is a broadside shot (or more than 1 bullet). Again, it's just semantics and I'm giving you a hard time.

But it might be charging somebody else in my group (or more than 1 bullet...yes)...and I'm just playing along for the sake of discussion.

 

[blitzen]

Again, to survive a charge you need only to change the bears mind. It has one. I would stand before any animal on the planet with my benelli and oh, lets say 4 shot and not be eaten, not be gored and yes not be stomped. I would bet my life on it. How about a tazer. They have been proven as well. Not 2 seconds ago on channel 2 anchorage. To say that you can't stop a bear with a .308 is so stupid it hardly warrents any conversation at all.
Greg Koziol??? How many bears ya ever come up on?

 

[mini14gb]

Lets be clear, I have no desire to just go off killing bears. They are welcome to visit the property and I will do my best to not bait them by properly storing food so as not to reward them for boorish behavior. I do however support the hunting season for bears but I have no desire to hunt them. I will stick to the Elk and Deer.

 

[Greg Koziol]

Nevermind then...the fact your talking to us like we're idiots has a lot to do with your reception.

why should I be open-minded to you if you are not open minded to me? Your not gonna change your mind so why should I change mine?

 

[Greg Koziol]

Greg,

Have you ever even seen a bear?
Not counting pictures or the internet?
Just asking.

yes i've seen a black bear once running through my campground when I was a kid in the catskills and even though it was no Grizzly bear it was big and looked like it could mess me up and i'm 280 pounds strongman and competitive powerlifter

 

[Greg Koziol]

Again, to survive a charge you need only to change the bears mind. It has one. I would stand before any animal on the planet with my benelli and oh, lets say 4 shot and not be eaten, not be gored and yes not be stomped. I would bet my life on it. How about a tazer. They have been proven as well. Not 2 seconds ago on channel 2 anchorage. To say that you can't stop a bear with a .308 is so stupid it hardly warrents any conversation at all.
Greg Koziol??? How many bears ya ever come up on?

animals... just like people have emotions.. they get sad, they get angry and they get defensive. Im not the type of person that wants to play mind games with 800 pounds of muscle. If you wanna do that go right ahead..

 

[Greg Koziol]

Change the bears mind? i don't want to play mind games with a wild animal that weighs 800 pounds and can kill me with one bite.

 

[blitzen]

Ok then, your a big guy, no dought about that and I wouldn't want to get in a fight with a 30 lb raccoon. I've seen what they can do to a good sized coon dog. That aside, you have to understand that a bear (yes a 1000 lb brown bear, mean as hell and tough as nails is just a big critter) They don't want to get all tore up no more than anything else. You can stop them, ie, change there minds (little as they may be) with something less than a, 155 howitzer. So to say, like you have that a .30 cal can not stop a charge is just wrong. I will totally agree, as will everyone else that the bigger is better. So you are not wrong in that regard. The OP was wondering about loads for his SOCOM 16 and I think that we can all agree that even good factory hunting loads such as the remington core lock will serve him well as a, kick around the camp, maybe bear protection rifle.

As a side note, If you ever want to come to Alaska to see some really big bears, you are welcome in my home anytime.

 

[CA2005]

no offense taken ... i've been around the block my friend, and i dont need to be 48 years old to understand that a 30 caliber round is not big enough to stop a worst case scenario situation with a bear...

Don't size up your manhood to me please, i don't care how old you are... don't play that card please i've been around the block

BY CHARGING BEAR I MEAN WORST CASE SCENARIO: which means the bear has his mind set on attacking you.... and your inside 100 yards and he's comin at you 40 miles per house

State your extensive background...24 year old expert. I'm thinking maybe 12 years old, in your parents basement.

 

[Birddog1911]

Greg, if you think I was talking down to you, you're wrong. Was simply trying to offer some friendly advice.

You remind me a lot of the guys I served with who were from upper NY state. Cocky and arrogant, to a fault. You think in your vast 24 years of being "around" the block trumps multiple hunters experience? You've seen one black bear in your whole life, and you are gonna tell guys who hunt grizzlies that they're wrong? You continue to belittle anyone who thinks that a .30 centerfire rifle, despite experience and facts. Shoot, you ignore how long of a recovery will be needed from that hand cannon .500 despite that in that recovery time, someone experienced with an M1A could get off at least 3 shots. Not to mention you'll be more steady and more accurate with a rifle than you would a handgun. That is the last argument that I will try to use to persuade you.

Try taking the chip off of your shoulder, opening your mind, and realizing that your "block" doesn't amount to a hill of beans here in the real world. It isn't that we aren't open minded to your opinion; it is simply that your opinion isn't backed by one single fact or experience. When we try to show you that your assumptions aren't true, you've attacked pretty much every opinion and discount it on the basis of us being ".30 fan boys".


Mini, have you purchased your SOCOM yet? If you haven't, I'd recommend the Bush model myself. 2 more inches of barrel, but still very handy. Personally, I think it has better balance. Also, were you planning on putting optics on it?

 

[gunnie]

..."i'm 280 pounds strongman and competitive powerlifter"...

and ANY competent shooter who weighs 70lbs with a 10 shot semiautomatic rifle chambered in .22 short could stop you, even if you were equiped with pitbull jaws and edward scissorhands gear in a full speed enraged charge from 10yds away.

gunnie

 

[sonier]

lmao gunnie

 

[mini14gb]

Birddog,
I have purchased the SOCOM and shot it for the first time 2 days ago. My initial impressions put it ahead of my AR-10 carbine. I do not plan on using any kind of optic. I'm comfortable with the iron sights but I'm open to any suggestions on an optic.

I did considered the M1A scout but decided I wanted the rifle to be as small as possible with less rifle to get snagged up in the brush when walking. I have one hillside on my land that is full of deer but its a brushy mess leading to a creek. I have taken a deer out of there before and hunting it with a full length rifle sucked getting it snagged up in brushy tangles and the AR-10 flash hider would gather twigs like an bird building a nest. The SOCOM as you know has no flash hider. Its a tough but fun spot to hunt but stealth and closer range shooting are the norm.

 

[mini14gb]

Damn Gunnie that's some funny stuff right there.

 

[KodiakBeer]

its good for hunting purposes but for solitary hikes through thick bear country wher eyou can't see more then 40 yards I would rather have ATLEAST 12 gauge shotgun with 3" slugs.

Greg, I don't think anyone here would disagree that for pure bear-stopping purposes, a 12 gauge slug or a high pressure .45/70 is the best choice. But a .30 will also do the job, even though your margin of safety narrows.
It's like arguing that a .380 isn't enough gun for self defense carry, yet even though there are more effective man-stoppers, the .380 does work most of the time in that role. Is it the best choice? No. But, because of the weather, clothing, concealment, it may be the compromise you make.

The OP is asking (with certain cartridge choices) if the short .308 is an adequate choice for general hunting, defense, and bears in a remote locale. Most of think it is an adequate compromise.

 

[KodiakBeer]

mini14gb: Kodiak there is a distinct difference in what you and DeBrunyn say. YOU say a bluff charge is a bluff from the start part of a threat posture but if you show weakness your screwed. DeBrunyn say all charges are REAL and that your reaction will deter the bear from making an attack.

I'd say the differences are purely semantic. In this type of scenario, you can stand the bear down and walk away. And if you keep your head, you can tell the difference between this type of behavior and the other more serious type of attack, and avoid shooting the bear. The bear has not made up his mind, and won't until you demonstrate strength or weakness - whether you stand and shout, or run.

In the other scenario, the silent rush, it doesn't matter what you do. He has already decided to take you down. You'd best shoot, though pepper spray is effective also.

 

[KodiakBeer]

greg: BY CHARGING BEAR I MEAN WORST CASE SCENARIO: which means the bear has his mind set on attacking you.... and your inside 100 yards and he's comin at you 40 miles per house

It's already been stated, but if you shoot a bear at 100 yards it's called sniping, not bear defense.

I took the photo below from fifteen yards. I was shooting (a camera) up a little brush-choked stream where a bear was feeding on humpies, perhaps 40 yards away. The bear turned and started coming down the stream towards me, carrying a fish. I stood up to let him know I was there (though, I was certain he already knew that) and he walked out into the sunlight, dropped his fish and began eating it right there, across the little pool from me.
He could have as easily eaten it up the stream, away from me, but he chose to get right in my face and eat it. There was nothing overtly threatening, but he was definitely demonstrating that this was HIS space. With a can of pepper spray in one hand and a camera in the other, I snapped a few pix and then slowly edged away laterally and let him have his space back.
This has little to do with your charging bear scenario, but I just thought I'd toss it out there to show that bears can and do approach without it being an attack. I've had a number of other encounters where they actually ran or loped at me, woofing and grunting for the very same reason this bear approached. All of those were resolved peacefully as well.

 

[winchester '97]

If there are animals that cannot be reliably stopped by a 20 round magazine of .308 in the area you need a new cabin location . In all seriousness though, a shotgun with slugs would be ideal, but i would feel safe with the .308 too. And +1 on fmj ammo, i have heard the old heavy ball MG ammo is one of the most popular x54 loads used in Russia and the areas around there. If it were not for the restrictions with using it with light ball only i would reccomend a Waffen Werks Ak-54, a x54 ak47 build off a nodak PSL receiver with a 16 inch barrel and standard ak furniture. Also, it seems more than a little dumb to try and get close to a bear for any reason with just pepper spray, it won't deter a human reliably so i doubt it would do much to a seriously p***ed off bear.
And now the mods will close the thread because of certain people acting like children. Way to get this guys thread locked because you need to puff and strut like a tom turkey, if you dont have anything constructive to say about this guy's OP you really shouldn't have typed anything.

 

[Gungnir]

You raise a good point Kodiak.

Only an average of 3 people per year are killed by a bear attack (from 1990 to 2000) across the whole of the US and Canada, an average of 90 are killed by lightning per year for the same period.

I'm seeing them daily again where I'm at, last year I'd see Grizzlies weekly and Blacks daily. We have a returnee from last year, he's a little closer to us than I'd like about 3 or 4 years old, and he might wind up as sausage. On the whole though, they're just checking up on the neighbors.

My first choice wouldn't be a 308 though, but I've packed 60lbs of moose with my 30-06 through active bear country. Didn't feel especially happy about it, but nothing untoward happened but I would have preferred something a little heavier.

Best caliber for bear is a dog, it'll give you a heads up when one's about, and sadly can be used to get away if need be, not especially ASPCA correct, but if it's between my dog and me, I'm picking the dog, she can't get a job, can't fix chainsaws or trucks, there is no Timmy to fall down our well, and without me she doesn't get fed so she's probably dying anyway (or greatly reducing the rabbit population).

 

[mini14gb]

Again, I'm not going to have a dog. Dogs keep most wildlife ran off and I like to see wildlife. Having a dog out and about running off the wildlife kind of defeats the purpose of living out in the woods among them.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Gungnir: Best caliber for bear is a dog, it'll give you a heads up when one's about, and sadly can be used to get away if need be, not especially ASPCA correct, but if it's between my dog and me, I'm picking the dog, she can't get a job, can't fix chainsaws or trucks, there is no Timmy to fall down our well, and without me she doesn't get fed so she's probably dying anyway (or greatly reducing the rabbit population).

It better be the right dog! I've heard too many stories of poorly trained dogs wandering off a little too far, and then coming straight back to the owner with a bear on their tail. We have a little aussie cattle dog mix that stays with us and doesn't run off chasing rabbits or barking and making a nuisance. She stays within a few yards of us and bristles up when she smells a bear.

The smartest dog I ever owned was a high percentage wolf hybrid I got from that guy in Palmer/Wasilla - "wolf country" or whatever - I'm sure you've seen it driving through there. Anyway, that dog was so smart she'd actually "explain" stuff to me. One time while hiking, she began throwing herself at my knees and pushing me back. I tried to push past her and she actually threw herself so hard she hurt my knees - they only bend one way! Then she nosed around and began pawing at a place on the trail and looking at me - begging me to come see. I walked over and she was showing me a big grizzly track going in the same direction I was. She'd also drink beer with me and get loaded, but that's a different story. God, I loved that dog!

 

[Gungnir]

It better be the right dog! I've heard too many stories of poorly trained dogs wandering off a little too far, and then coming straight back to the owner with a bear on their tail.

Just so, but then bad dog owners deserve whatever they get

The smartest dog I ever owned was a high percentage wolf hybrid I got from that guy in Palmer/Wasilla - "wolf country" or whatever - I'm sure you've seen it driving through there. Anyway, that dog was so smart she'd actually "explain" stuff to me.

Yup ours in 1/4 wolf, 1/4 Mal, and 1/2 Akita. So she digs holes, loves anything weather under 0 and is smarter than any dog I've ever known, also about mid thigh height and 9 months old. Yeah she knows better'n to find something nasty and come straight home. She even holds her breath if she see's me stop and listen.

Again, I'm not going to have a dog. Dogs keep most wildlife ran off and I like to see wildlife. Having a dog out and about running off the wildlife kind of defeats the purpose of living out in the woods among them.

A good thing about a well trained dog is they shouldn't run anything off, any more than you being there does anyway and the only time they'll make any kind of ruckus is when you need to be paying attention to something you really need to be paying attention to.

Ours certainly doesn't drive off our Bears, Moose, Wolves, Grouse, Owls Ravens or Rabbits or if she is then we have a lot more than we think we do. Only thing we haven't seen too much of with her is Coyotes, but we still hear them. At the moment I'm wishing she'd drive off skeeters though.

 

[Birddog1911]

Man, Kodiak, that sounds like a heck of a dog! As a lab owner, I appreciate a smart dog. The only problem is that the big chocolate would want to go play with it!