DenaliPark
member
Cheaper to shoot? Not even close, the nine...
9 MM or 40 S&W
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DenaliPark
member
So, a 180 gr .40 caliber bullet is only superior to a 124 or 147 gr 9mm bullet, because of market manipulation? If you've already got a .45 then I'd say get a 9mm.
There isn't that big of a difference between the .40 and the .45 and I always considered it a compromise between the 45 and 9.
You may as well just take the leap and go to the 9mm.
Personally I've always considered the .45 and the 9mm to be the starting point for any good gun collection.
There isn't that big of a difference between the .40 and the .45 and I always considered it a compromise between the 45 and 9.
You may as well just take the leap and go to the 9mm.
Personally I've always considered the .45 and the 9mm to be the starting point for any good gun collection.
SigP229R
Member
You could have all three by buying a Sig P229R and two extra barrels. By the basic version in .40 and a .357 sig barrel and thats it for that cal. and then buy the 9mm barrel and mags. and maybe a lighter slide and you have got all three. Just my humble opinion. You will also probably have to have the spring kit to go to 9mm. Some say the mags. and lighter slide are unneccessary but I would do it myself.
QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
Member
personal preference. go to a range were you can rent some guns in the caliber you want.
i used to carry a 9mm, then i shot a .40 and just love that round so i carry it a lot. now i have a 1911 so i carry that as well.
.40 is cheaper then .45 but not by much and the same goes for 9mm, its not much cheaper then .40.
i used to carry a 9mm, then i shot a .40 and just love that round so i carry it a lot. now i have a 1911 so i carry that as well.
.40 is cheaper then .45 but not by much and the same goes for 9mm, its not much cheaper then .40.
1stmarine
Member
The other day I bought 2K rounds of federal champion .40cal 180gr for $420. That's 2 cases with 20 boxes, 1,000 each case.
That's makes the box at $10.50 I can get the 9mm at $9.50 or $9/box if I get 2 cases (2K rounds) but as you can see the difference is not that much.
I think the difference is much bigger if you buy loose boxes and not by the case.
Then if you reload the difference is also marginal if you reload with ranieri coppers.
Having 1 pistols with 3 barrels is great but I would not constantly swap the one you carry. Have 2 pistols even if they are the same and leave the one you carry as is. Do not fiddle with it and make sure it shoots ok and it likes the round you carry. Also cycle the magazines every 3 months shoot the carry ammo and put new rounds.
I shoot about 6K-7K rounds/year on defensive pistol only so as you can see the ammo only offsets the cost of a new pistol and preventive maintenance parts. I use mostly glock.
...and as quick draw mcgraw wisely recommended see if you can try a few from friends or someone at the gun club. I never refuse an opportunity to try a new system and offer
myself to anyone to try mine. Not to everyone but those that I consider responsible handling my firearms and open to learn and suggestions, that is a lot of people but sometimes
we find one on the dark side too.
Cheers.
E.
That's makes the box at $10.50 I can get the 9mm at $9.50 or $9/box if I get 2 cases (2K rounds) but as you can see the difference is not that much.
I think the difference is much bigger if you buy loose boxes and not by the case.
Then if you reload the difference is also marginal if you reload with ranieri coppers.
Having 1 pistols with 3 barrels is great but I would not constantly swap the one you carry. Have 2 pistols even if they are the same and leave the one you carry as is. Do not fiddle with it and make sure it shoots ok and it likes the round you carry. Also cycle the magazines every 3 months shoot the carry ammo and put new rounds.
I shoot about 6K-7K rounds/year on defensive pistol only so as you can see the ammo only offsets the cost of a new pistol and preventive maintenance parts. I use mostly glock.
...and as quick draw mcgraw wisely recommended see if you can try a few from friends or someone at the gun club. I never refuse an opportunity to try a new system and offer
myself to anyone to try mine. Not to everyone but those that I consider responsible handling my firearms and open to learn and suggestions, that is a lot of people but sometimes
we find one on the dark side too.
Cheers.
E.
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au01st
Member
Never found anyone that won't stand in front of a round from a .40 volunteer to stand in front of a round of 9mm...
Planning to pick up a S&W SD40 since my DeSantis holster for my SD9 will also fit it, but not picking it up to use OVER the 9mm, just simply to have another gun in the collection.
Planning to pick up a S&W SD40 since my DeSantis holster for my SD9 will also fit it, but not picking it up to use OVER the 9mm, just simply to have another gun in the collection.
451 Detonics
Member
When it comes to self defense there is no significant difference in the two rounds ability to stop an aggressor. So other than the increased recoil and muzzle flip that slows down follow up shots, I would say it isn't superior
What makes you feel the 180gr .40 caliber bullet is superior?
1stmarine
Member
I agree with everyone.
A 9mm with Corbon DXP 115gr is as deadly as anything else if you have good placement. Good placement is the key for pistol defense.
The 357SIG though is superior in going through glass and other barriers. It was designed specifically for that and to mimic the .357 magnum in smaller 'auto' package.
Anything you choose would be pretty good if you train a lot with it.
A 9mm with Corbon DXP 115gr is as deadly as anything else if you have good placement. Good placement is the key for pistol defense.
The 357SIG though is superior in going through glass and other barriers. It was designed specifically for that and to mimic the .357 magnum in smaller 'auto' package.
Anything you choose would be pretty good if you train a lot with it.
easyg
Member
There's just no getting around it, the .40 is more effective than the 9mm when it comes to quickly stopping humans.
The 9mm can only come close to the .40 when it is ramped up to +P and +P+, and even then it just barely competes.
HOWEVER....
Even though the .40 is more effective, the 9mm is still effective enough.
And you get more rounds in the magazine, all other things being equal.
More rounds is better than less rounds when your life is on the line.
The 9mm can only come close to the .40 when it is ramped up to +P and +P+, and even then it just barely competes.
HOWEVER....
Even though the .40 is more effective, the 9mm is still effective enough.
And you get more rounds in the magazine, all other things being equal.
More rounds is better than less rounds when your life is on the line.
Shadow 7D
Member
Really Easyg...
and your proof is where?
and your proof is where?
easyg
Member
Proof that the .40 is a more effective round than the 9mm?
Proof that the 9mm is still effective enough?
Proof that the 9mm+P and 9mm+P+ compare pretty close to the .40?
Proof that in similar handguns the 9mm holds more rounds in the magazine?
Proof that more bullets is better than less when your life is at stake?
Which of the above statements do you think are false?
Proof that the 9mm is still effective enough?
Proof that the 9mm+P and 9mm+P+ compare pretty close to the .40?
Proof that in similar handguns the 9mm holds more rounds in the magazine?
Proof that more bullets is better than less when your life is at stake?
Which of the above statements do you think are false?
Practice is the key. Either will eliminate the threat. I read a poster one day that said "9mm,... because I'm puttin two in your chest and one in your head". Made since to me. I carry a .40 only because when my sigma was stolen it left me with 500+ rounds of .40 and no gun to shoot it out of. Otherwise I prob would have ended up with a 9mm.
easyg,
While it appears to be intuitive that "bigger is better," medical examiners can't tell the differences among the 9/.40/45, and they also can't tell if a hollowpoint is used. If you want to use it because it gives you greater confidence, that's fine, but saying it's more effective means there should be evidence somewhere - I'd really like to see it. No offense intended, but I really would; I've looked and can't find it.
While it appears to be intuitive that "bigger is better," medical examiners can't tell the differences among the 9/.40/45, and they also can't tell if a hollowpoint is used. If you want to use it because it gives you greater confidence, that's fine, but saying it's more effective means there should be evidence somewhere - I'd really like to see it. No offense intended, but I really would; I've looked and can't find it.
1stmarine
Member
easyg didn't say anything crazy. His reasoning is well founded.
The discussion here could go on and on as always the same. Same thing AK vs AR, FN vs M1A and so on...
So with your permision and I am going to use easyg prompt analysis since he put some interesting facts together.
Proof that the .40 is a more effective round than the 9mm? Many LEO departments replaced they 9MM with the .40cal round. The average .40 round has more energy than the average 9mm round although some departments still use the 9mm. Lets leave it to that.
Proof that the 9mm is still effective enough?
The new pistols and specially the new +P+ rounds are well above the 500ft/lb with very flat shooting which is plenty to take down any human being. That is why I posted the street stoppers index. It rates pretty high and it is based on a single wound cavity. We count the lethality of one single (maybe two) well placed centermass or head shots and for that both will take care of the average human.
Proof that the 9mm+P and 9mm+P+ compare pretty close to the .40?
The indexes I posted before are consistent to the FBI reports. 9mm a tad behind but it is marginal difference so it is not even relevant.
Proof that in similar handguns the 9mm holds more rounds in the magazine?
Glock 17 holds 17. Glock 22 police holds 15.
So the potential with more rounds is that overall 17rounds of Corbons
have more total(aggregated) firepower than 15rounds of hydrashocks but in the end you don't want to get to the bottom of a mag to find out you already have 3 extra holes in your body. (too late)
Proof that more bullets is better than less when your life is at stake?
You have 2 more shots. If you didn't hit the target in 15 shots probably you are not a good shot and you will be dead but still you have 2 extra.
All good opinions in this post. Personally I can carry both and do not think too much about it as I train with both rounds and I know I can do my part. That is what makes me feel better about carrying either and not the caliber itself.
I keep my carry systems well maintained, shoot the carry ammo every 3 months and put new ones, rotate magazines, etc... Also tested many carry ammo against all sort of hard and soft targets in some farm land I have and found that the corbons in 9mm and the hydrashocks in 40cal are both devastating rounds.
And finally the .357SIG I Can carry also and it is superior in terms of terminal performance but the chances that I am going to need that extra torque above any of the other systems are very slim. You know there are rounds for the .357SIG that are 80gr solid coppers that can do 2000fps? Tokarev rings a bell? these are exclusively designed to defeat body armor. So if I though I was going to need to fight folks with body armor it would be in a very unusual situation where I would probably be carrying body armor as well and not only the .357SIG with those rounds but something extra. AK-47?
So whatever you do, get good 9mm +P+, 40cal Hydrashocks or whatever good quality ammo you choose, a good pistol and shoot every week 200 training rounds of well coached defensive shooting. That way only you know you are ready.
Cheers,
E.
The discussion here could go on and on as always the same. Same thing AK vs AR, FN vs M1A and so on...
So with your permision and I am going to use easyg prompt analysis since he put some interesting facts together.
Proof that the .40 is a more effective round than the 9mm? Many LEO departments replaced they 9MM with the .40cal round. The average .40 round has more energy than the average 9mm round although some departments still use the 9mm. Lets leave it to that.
Proof that the 9mm is still effective enough?
The new pistols and specially the new +P+ rounds are well above the 500ft/lb with very flat shooting which is plenty to take down any human being. That is why I posted the street stoppers index. It rates pretty high and it is based on a single wound cavity. We count the lethality of one single (maybe two) well placed centermass or head shots and for that both will take care of the average human.
Proof that the 9mm+P and 9mm+P+ compare pretty close to the .40?
The indexes I posted before are consistent to the FBI reports. 9mm a tad behind but it is marginal difference so it is not even relevant.
Proof that in similar handguns the 9mm holds more rounds in the magazine?
Glock 17 holds 17. Glock 22 police holds 15.
So the potential with more rounds is that overall 17rounds of Corbons
have more total(aggregated) firepower than 15rounds of hydrashocks but in the end you don't want to get to the bottom of a mag to find out you already have 3 extra holes in your body. (too late)
Proof that more bullets is better than less when your life is at stake?
You have 2 more shots. If you didn't hit the target in 15 shots probably you are not a good shot and you will be dead but still you have 2 extra.
All good opinions in this post. Personally I can carry both and do not think too much about it as I train with both rounds and I know I can do my part. That is what makes me feel better about carrying either and not the caliber itself.
I keep my carry systems well maintained, shoot the carry ammo every 3 months and put new ones, rotate magazines, etc... Also tested many carry ammo against all sort of hard and soft targets in some farm land I have and found that the corbons in 9mm and the hydrashocks in 40cal are both devastating rounds.
And finally the .357SIG I Can carry also and it is superior in terms of terminal performance but the chances that I am going to need that extra torque above any of the other systems are very slim. You know there are rounds for the .357SIG that are 80gr solid coppers that can do 2000fps? Tokarev rings a bell? these are exclusively designed to defeat body armor. So if I though I was going to need to fight folks with body armor it would be in a very unusual situation where I would probably be carrying body armor as well and not only the .357SIG with those rounds but something extra. AK-47?
So whatever you do, get good 9mm +P+, 40cal Hydrashocks or whatever good quality ammo you choose, a good pistol and shoot every week 200 training rounds of well coached defensive shooting. That way only you know you are ready.
Cheers,
E.
Shadow 7D
Member
Sorry, but that is starting to sound more M-S 'oneshotstops' esq
I'm a real estate theory guy,
LOCATION,LOCATION,LOCATION
As for what flavor gets you there, that's all you baby.
1stmarine
Member
Shadow 7D,
Yes that the real state around the heart downtown area, right? lol
You are 100% right and that was my point. We get so caught up with the little details like different rounds that we forget the most important thing.
Placement is the key and it needs to be done fast w/o even thinking.
Yes that the real state around the heart downtown area, right? lol
You are 100% right and that was my point. We get so caught up with the little details like different rounds that we forget the most important thing.
Placement is the key and it needs to be done fast w/o even thinking.
Well, that's not proof of effectiveness, but it's a pretty good argument. Talk to cops, though, and they'll mostly tell you it caliber just doesn't matter. Another way to look at it is they have mission parameters that civilians defending themselves do not, such as penetrating car doors and windshields. A civilian doing that will be lucky to keep his liberty. Still, though, the ME can't tell the difference; I'm going with extra rounds in the magazine and the ability to shoot better weak-handed.
Shadow 7D
Member
Me to, but then you are stuck feeding a zoo, and some of those things are damn expensive to feed, though pretty to look at.
1stmarine
Member
Jaywalker,
that's what I said leave it to that.
The .40cal was developed as a law enforcement cartridge designed to duplicate performance 10mm(FBI) in reduced velocity.
Since the popular infamous miami shootout back in the eighths there was a concern about the 9mm.
The 9mm pistols and ammo keeps evolving since then so it is the .40cal so the argument would be more about how many rounds a LEO can train / year.
Initially it was found that a 180gr will deflect less through glass and metal barriers (a great concern at traffic stops going bad) so it was slowly shifted towards that round but again the 9mm didn't stay stagnant. What those rounds and pistols did then vs. today specially with the new training (And I said training, not hardware) this would be a different story but nobody really knows.
By the same token SIG-Sauer responded to similar requirements by some austrian police and in collaboration with Federal they created the 357SIG which is superior to both the 9mm and 40cal. It is expensive but it is pretty good at replicating the 123gr 357 magnum which is amazing in a autoloader with 15 rounds. It is expensive but the local police here has them (we pay a lot of taxes - lol)
So, with a good pistol today, and the best carry ammo, all good stuff one way or another anyway. Any of those but the 25ACP but hey, if I had to choose between that and a rock I would probably go with the 25 or even the 22LR.
So again, going back to the real state issue. Placement is the key.
Train a lot, get good at it and pray to god you never have to be in a position where you have to use a firearm to defend your life or a love one or somebody defenseless.
Also pray that the headless politicians start downsizing the bankrupt system from the top and not at the bottom so they do not have to fire teachers, close libraries, schools or let go policeman or firefighters or emergency responders so they can be there to defend us from criminals and thugs and take us out of a burning building and keep our kids education for a better future.
That way maybe one day we will never need to carry nice pistols or great ammo anymore.
Cheers.
E.
that's what I said leave it to that.
The .40cal was developed as a law enforcement cartridge designed to duplicate performance 10mm(FBI) in reduced velocity.
Since the popular infamous miami shootout back in the eighths there was a concern about the 9mm.
The 9mm pistols and ammo keeps evolving since then so it is the .40cal so the argument would be more about how many rounds a LEO can train / year.
Initially it was found that a 180gr will deflect less through glass and metal barriers (a great concern at traffic stops going bad) so it was slowly shifted towards that round but again the 9mm didn't stay stagnant. What those rounds and pistols did then vs. today specially with the new training (And I said training, not hardware) this would be a different story but nobody really knows.
By the same token SIG-Sauer responded to similar requirements by some austrian police and in collaboration with Federal they created the 357SIG which is superior to both the 9mm and 40cal. It is expensive but it is pretty good at replicating the 123gr 357 magnum which is amazing in a autoloader with 15 rounds. It is expensive but the local police here has them (we pay a lot of taxes - lol)
So, with a good pistol today, and the best carry ammo, all good stuff one way or another anyway. Any of those but the 25ACP but hey, if I had to choose between that and a rock I would probably go with the 25 or even the 22LR.
So again, going back to the real state issue. Placement is the key.
Train a lot, get good at it and pray to god you never have to be in a position where you have to use a firearm to defend your life or a love one or somebody defenseless.
Also pray that the headless politicians start downsizing the bankrupt system from the top and not at the bottom so they do not have to fire teachers, close libraries, schools or let go policeman or firefighters or emergency responders so they can be there to defend us from criminals and thugs and take us out of a burning building and keep our kids education for a better future.
That way maybe one day we will never need to carry nice pistols or great ammo anymore.
Cheers.
E.
1stmarine
Member
..that was funny.
Again guys. 2,000 rounds of federal 180gr $420. that is $10.50 for each box of 50. Is that much difference with the 9mm? I also shoot 9mm an I cannot go down from $9.50 or 9 if I get lucky. I can reload and even then I am looking at $150 plus some sweat and tears.
.357SIG you have to restrain yourself but same as the magnums. Anyway that is a different story. Hey think of it like this, when you are shooting your 9mm or .40 cal you cannot shoot the most expensive one so you are saving! lol! Same thing when you are shooting the little 10/22 carbine! LOL!
Cheers,
E.
1stmarine
Member
Local gun shop. They buy huge quantities and they also sell bulk. That is why.
Look around you should be able to find something similar. If not ping me with a PM.
Also talk to your friends at the local gun club. Sometime with 10 people together you can get amazing deals in pistol and/or rifle ammo if you buy big quantities.
Last week I got 6 skeet and trap shotguns for 3 of us with a huge discount. 52% off list price.
At the skeet club we buy a trailer of clay birds a the time and we get a huge discount and we know we are going to burn it anyway so everyone is chipping in.
Look around you should be able to find something similar. If not ping me with a PM.
Also talk to your friends at the local gun club. Sometime with 10 people together you can get amazing deals in pistol and/or rifle ammo if you buy big quantities.
Last week I got 6 skeet and trap shotguns for 3 of us with a huge discount. 52% off list price.
At the skeet club we buy a trailer of clay birds a the time and we get a huge discount and we know we are going to burn it anyway so everyone is chipping in.
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