9mm, .38 spec., .357, .40, and .45 ACP

[stinger 327]

go with the federal hydra shock, hst, or tactical bonded brand if they work in your gun. You could just as easily use remmington golden saber, speer gold dot, hornady close quarters, winchester ranger t series, ranger bonded, or pdx1. They will all meet the standards for penetrating.

The ranger t and sxt have issues with the core and jacket seperating after penetrating automotive glass. The golden saber has had issues with heavy clothing. Going heavy for caliber should help with weight retention and performance after passing through barriers.

so of the above brands you mention above any one of those would be sufficient none better than the other.
There is a problem with the federal hst i noticed it is hard to obtain can be expensive but you get 50 rounds instead of this 20 round stuff and federal hst is always out of stock.
I don't think federal has hst in .38 and .357 calibers. Who is the best vendor to get the hst bullets in all calibers?

 

[Manco]

aRE YOU SAYING GO WITH THE HEAVIER BULLET AS IF THE .45 ACP IS OFFERED IN 165 POWERBALL OVER 1,200 FPS, 185, 200 AND 230 WHICH ARE HEAVIER AND LOWER VELICITY ROUNDS.. gO WITH THE 230?

If I may interject here, with regard to penetrating hard, dry barriers, what I've gathered from the tests I've seen is that given roughly equal momentum, as is the case here based on your numbers, lighter and faster tend to penetrate better (I wouldn't have guessed it, but that's what I've seen). This is in contrast to wet & squishy things like flesh, which heavier (but slower, as we are talking about equal momentum in the same caliber here) bullets tend to penetrate better.

On the other hand, heavier bullets are less easily deflected by angled barriers (again, from the tests I've seen). 180 grains is a good minimum weight that should keep your shot more or less on target through windshields, for example.

cRITICAL DEFENSE LOADS ARE MORE FOR FLESH DAMAGE VS. SHOOTING THROUGH BARRACADES?

I think that any bullet that has a plastic insert inside its hollow-point cavity is more likely to expand somewhat when it hits just about anything, which would reduce penetration through barriers (I'd like to see this hypothesis actually tested, though). For comparison, more traditional hollow-points will generally only expand when they hit something wet & squishy.

cORBON pOWERBALL MADE FOR MORE PENETRATION SINCE IT IS A VERY HOT LOAD AND LIGHTER?

Maybe, but that plastic ball might get in the way, much like with Critical Defense.

wHAT IS A HARDCAST BULLET SOMETHING LIKE BUFFALO BORE AMMO THAT IS A LEAD TIP?

It's an alloyed (usually with antimony and tin) lead bullet (usually the whole bullet is unjacketed) that is harder than the plain lead that is usually used for bullets.

tHE 147 GRAIN 9MM WAS THE WORST PERFORMING CARTRIDGE IN THAT WEIGHT AT ONE TIME. THE 115, AND 124, 127 WERE THE PREFERRED ROUNDS SO THIS HAS CHANGED NOW?

The performance of 147 grain 9mm hollow-points has been greatly improved over the past few years, although not every manufacturer has got it quite right just yet. I know that the Federal HST load is a good one, but I've seen some failures in other brands. While I tend to favor heavy-for-caliber bullets in general, it may be safest to stick with 124 grain loads (or anything close to that) in this caliber for the time being.

wHAT IS WRONG WITH THE WINCHESTER PDX-1 .38 SPECIAL AMMO IN A SNUBNOSE REVOLVER?

There's nothing wrong that I know of, but if your focus is on penetrating barriers, then the .38 Special caliber in general (especially out of a snubby) should be the last choice among the options you listed, which was my point. It can penetrate many barriers and still stop or kill, make no mistake, but it doesn't have as much potential as the other calibers in this regard. Interestingly, its big brother .357 Magnum probably has the most potential of the bunch.

FOR EXAMPLE THERE IS A GOLD DOT VERSION OF .38 SPECIAL MADE FOR SHORT BARRELS LIKE THE LCR RUGER .38 SPC. tHEN THE GOLD DOT FOR SHORTER BARRELS IS THE BETTER CHOICE?

Maybe if you're using short barrels, but I don't know much about these loads. What I do know is that the bullets themselves appear to behave differently in expansion tests from regular Gold Dots, and they look different when expanded as well (all else being equal). This tells me that they're a different design than the regular Gold Dot (a proven design that I like a lot), which to me implies that these loads may rely on softer bullets in addition to using a faster-burning powder (or whatever else they do differently). And then on top of all of this, they don't actually seem to perform any better in terminal ballistics out of short barrels, at least in the few tests I've seen.

gOLD DOT ALSO MAKES SHORT VERSION AMMO FOR OTHER CALIBERS. THIS MAKES ME WONDER HOW WOULD THOSE SHORT VERSION CARTRIDGES PERFORM IN A LARGER GUN LIKE g-17, g-21, g-23? oR ARE YOU BETTER OFF WITH THE STANDARD LOADS NON SHORT BARREL VERSIONS?

They probably perform similarly just like they do out of short barrels, although in theory the regular Gold Dots should have an advantage. Eh, unless I see some tests that prove otherwise, I'd stick with the time-tested original Gold Dot (especially if the focus is on barrier penetration).

 

[AZ Five seveN]

What's wrong with 5.7x28mm?

 

[MikeNice]

Stinger, please turn off the caps key. It is considerred rude to post in all caps.

HST is not available in .38spl or .357mag to my knowledge. I think they are only available in 9mm, .40S&W, .357Sig, .45GAP and .45acp. You can get Federal Hydra-Shok .38spl+p, .38spl+P+, and .357.

Ammo to Go usually has Federal HST, Federal Hydra-Shok, Speer Gold Dot, and Winchester Ranger in stock. You can usually buy the LE 50 round box. It seems more expensive, but it is cheaper than buying two or three boxes of 20 that most manufacturers sell on the civilian market.

Remmington Golden Saber is harder to find in the 50 pack, but it can be done. Not all manufacturers offer their "LE" brands in every caliber. They usually focus on calibers that cops carry on duty.

Gold Dot is available in nearly every popular handgun caliber. If you are worried about getting a good bullet in every caliber you listed buy Gold Dot or Winchester Ranger ammo.

 

[stinger 327]

Unless you're planning on shooting through windshields or car bodies most bullets will penetrate a hollow core door or sheetrock wall without much problem. A heavy solid core door might stop an expanding bullet or slow it down enough to reduce its effectiveness.

Surprisingly reasonably hard cast lead bullets will penetrate like nobody's business, but may well over-penetrate in a self defense situation.

Rather than worry about penetrating barriers I worry about bullet expansion and adequate expansion. Putting holes through your neighbors and/or their walls is generally something to be avoided.

That being said I'd prefer a .357 Mag or a .45 ACP with hard cast or FMJ bullets for penetration if I couldn't have a .45 Colt.

Is Buffalo Bore ammo in .38 spc. a hard alloy type of bullet? I believe it's in 158 grain and looks to be lead tipped.

 

[stinger 327]

Stinger, please turn off the caps key. It is considerred rude to post in all caps.

HST is not available in .38spl or .357mag to my knowledge. I think they are only available in 9mm, .40S&W, .357Sig, .45GAP and .45acp. You can get Federal Hydra-Shok .38spl+p, .38spl+P+, and .357.

Ammo to Go usually has Federal HST, Federal Hydra-Shok, Speer Gold Dot, and Winchester Ranger in stock. You can usually buy the LE 50 round box. It seems more expensive, but it is cheaper than buying two or three boxes of 20 that most manufacturers sell on the civilian market.

Remmington Golden Saber is harder to find in the 50 pack, but it can be done. Not all manufacturers offer their "LE" brands in every caliber. They usually focus on calibers that cops carry on duty.

Gold Dot is available in nearly every popular handgun caliber. If you are worried about getting a good bullet in every caliber you listed buy Gold Dot or Winchester Ranger ammo.

Ok so Federal HST doesn't make any rounds in HST for .38 cal, .357 magnum. (both revolver rounds)
I try looking for any of the 9mm, .40, or .45 ACP (strange all autos) and they are usually not available or even mentioned for sale with most ammo companies.
With streitcher's? Not sure about the spelling on this company, they are always out of stock on Federal HST.

 

[stinger 327]

Stinger, please turn off the caps key. It is considerred rude to post in all caps.

HST is not available in .38spl or .357mag to my knowledge. I think they are only available in 9mm, .40S&W, .357Sig, .45GAP and .45acp. You can get Federal Hydra-Shok .38spl+p, .38spl+P+, and .357.

Ammo to Go usually has Federal HST, Federal Hydra-Shok, Speer Gold Dot, and Winchester Ranger in stock. You can usually buy the LE 50 round box. It seems more expensive, but it is cheaper than buying two or three boxes of 20 that most manufacturers sell on the civilian market.

Remmington Golden Saber is harder to find in the 50 pack, but it can be done. Not all manufacturers offer their "LE" brands in every caliber. They usually focus on calibers that cops carry on duty.

Gold Dot is available in nearly every popular handgun caliber. If you are worried about getting a good bullet in every caliber you listed buy Gold Dot or Winchester Ranger ammo.

Seems to be that Gold Dot is a strong contender here and it is also easier to get than most of these other brands.

 

[stinger 327]

To me the .357 Magnum platform is the end all be all of handgun rounds, so that's what I count on. As I now live in a townhome my main home defense revolver is loaded with 38 special + P loads. I don't want to have to worry about shooting through a common wall. For normal carry I load Speer 158Gr. .357 Magnum ammo.

Most of the major brands should work well, I usually shoot Federal, Speer, or Fiocchi brands. As an aside I have had good luck using Georgia Arms ammo for range use.

.357 is my favorite especially the SP-101 snubby 2.25 inch barrel. Problem here is that being such a small barrel there are limitations.
Same for the LCR Ruger .38 spc. Another snubby that I like and this is probably even worse for penetration because of the caliber and 1.8 inch? barrel.
I like revolvers as they aren't dependent as much as the pistols that have a higher chance of malfunction/jam. I know they make these calibers with special tip or shaped noses to address the problem with autos jamming. Wouldn't make a difference in a revolver plus if ammo misfired by some chance you just pull the trigger for the next round.

 

[stinger 327]

Go with the Federal Hydra Shock, HST, or Tactical Bonded brand if they work in your gun. You could just as easily use Remmington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot, Hornady Close Quarters, Winchester Ranger T Series, Ranger Bonded, or PDX1. They will all meet the standards for penetrating.

The Ranger T and SXT have issues with the core and jacket seperating after penetrating automotive glass. The Golden Saber has had issues with heavy clothing. Going heavy for caliber should help with weight retention and performance after passing through barriers.

On the Hornady brand what's the difference between the 9mm tap hollow point and the 9mm critical defense with that red tip.

 

[stinger 327]

If I may interject here, with regard to penetrating hard, dry barriers, what I've gathered from the tests I've seen is that given roughly equal momentum, as is the case here based on your numbers, lighter and faster tend to penetrate better (I wouldn't have guessed it, but that's what I've seen). This is in contrast to wet & squishy things like flesh, which heavier (but slower, as we are talking about equal momentum in the same caliber here) bullets tend to penetrate better.

On the other hand, heavier bullets are less easily deflected by angled barriers (again, from the tests I've seen). 180 grains is a good minimum weight that should keep your shot more or less on target through windshields, for example.



I think that any bullet that has a plastic insert inside its hollow-point cavity is more likely to expand somewhat when it hits just about anything, which would reduce penetration through barriers (I'd like to see this hypothesis actually tested, though). For comparison, more traditional hollow-points will generally only expand when they hit something wet & squishy.



Maybe, but that plastic ball might get in the way, much like with Critical Defense.



It's an alloyed (usually with antimony and tin) lead bullet (usually the whole bullet is unjacketed) that is harder than the plain lead that is usually used for bullets.



The performance of 147 grain 9mm hollow-points has been greatly improved over the past few years, although not every manufacturer has got it quite right just yet. I know that the Federal HST load is a good one, but I've seen some failures in other brands. While I tend to favor heavy-for-caliber bullets in general, it may be safest to stick with 124 grain loads (or anything close to that) in this caliber for the time being.



There's nothing wrong that I know of, but if your focus is on penetrating barriers, then the .38 Special caliber in general (especially out of a snubby) should be the last choice among the options you listed, which was my point. It can penetrate many barriers and still stop or kill, make no mistake, but it doesn't have as much potential as the other calibers in this regard. Interestingly, its big brother .357 Magnum probably has the most potential of the bunch.



Maybe if you're using short barrels, but I don't know much about these loads. What I do know is that the bullets themselves appear to behave differently in expansion tests from regular Gold Dots, and they look different when expanded as well (all else being equal). This tells me that they're a different design than the regular Gold Dot (a proven design that I like a lot), which to me implies that these loads may rely on softer bullets in addition to using a faster-burning powder (or whatever else they do differently). And then on top of all of this, they don't actually seem to perform any better in terminal ballistics out of short barrels, at least in the few tests I've seen.



They probably perform similarly just like they do out of short barrels, although in theory the regular Gold Dots should have an advantage. Eh, unless I see some tests that prove otherwise, I'd stick with the time-tested original Gold Dot (especially if the focus is on barrier penetration).

One thing interesting about the Corbon Powerball is that it is the most expensive ammo here and the hottest load. It would appear that it is idententical to the Hornady Critical Defense with ball tip for expansion and feeding in autos but in this case even on the box it boasts of penetration through barriers. Hornadys is suppose to be more for flesh, penetration through leather jackets, denim clothing etc. Hornady is also difficult brand to find in the Critical Defense ammo almost as difficult as the Federal HST. Places that sell Hornady Critical Defense loads are always out of stock. Gold Dots and the old Fedeeral hydroshok loads are more available. Maybe hydroshok and Golden Sabers have been around for a long time and people tend to buy the newest thing on the market which would be the Critical Defense ammo.

 

[MikeNice]

Federal HST, Federal Tactical Bonded, Remmington Bonded Golden Saber, and Winchester Ranger can occasionally be hard to find. The reason is that the manufacturers ask for it to be sold only to law enforcement. That means that it can be difficult for distributors to come across. Some distributors and stores won't even try.

However, it is legal to own these bullets in most areas. The stipulation is set forth by the manufacturer and not the government.

Speer has no such restriction, so far as I know. That is why it is easier to find 50 round boxes of Speer Gold Dot Ammo.

Hornady Critical Defense is intended to make shallow but wide (for caliber) holes. It is not intended to pass through barriers. It isn't really meant to penetrate deep. Plus they are designed to be low recoil to improve accuracy. I personally would stay away from them. I have not been impressed by what I have seen in tests. Even Hornady's own testing shows some 9mm bullets only reaching 10.5" of penetration.

The TAP-FPD is the civilian version of Hornady's TAP Close Quarters LE ammo, as far as I can tell. They just have a nickel coated case and cost more. It is an older hollow point design, but is a good one. It is designed to expand less and penetrat more. The 124gr 9mm averages 13" of penetration in bare gel. The 147gr .357sig will actually penetrate 19" of bare gel. They use a low flash powder to reduce muzzle flash.

I have actually been thinking about getting some 180gr Hornady TAP CQ to try in my cousin's Kahr.

In my opinion the Critical Defense sells out so quickly because it is the newest whiz bang idea on the market. It will serve well enough in most encounters, but it makes serious compromises. Hornady TAP ammo compromises expansion by makes up for it in penetration and accuracy.

I would feel perfectly fine carrying Hornady TAP CQ.

I think the Corbon Pow'r Ball is a fine round if you have money to burn or your gun will not feed hollow points. Otherwise I believe you can get similar results from a number of other ammo choices.

 

[stinger 327]

Federal HST, Federal Tactical Bonded, Remmington Bonded Golden Saber, and Winchester Ranger can occasionally be hard to find. The reason is that the manufacturers ask for it to be sold only to law enforcement. That means that it can be difficult for distributors to come across. Some distributors and stores won't even try.

However, it is legal to own these bullets in most areas. The stipulation is set forth by the manufacturer and not the government.

Speer has no such restriction, so far as I know. That is why it is easier to find 50 round boxes of Speer Gold Dot Ammo.

Hornady Critical Defense is intended to make shallow but wide (for caliber) holes. It is not intended to pass through barriers. It isn't really meant to penetrate deep. Plus they are designed to be low recoil to improve accuracy. I personally would stay away from them. I have not been impressed by what I have seen in tests. Even Hornady's own testing shows some 9mm bullets only reaching 10.5" of penetration.

The TAP-FPD is the civilian version of Hornady's TAP Close Quarters LE ammo, as far as I can tell. They just have a nickel coated case and cost more. It is an older hollow point design, but is a good one. It is designed to expand less and penetrat more. The 124gr 9mm averages 13" of penetration in bare gel. The 147gr .357sig will actually penetrate 19" of bare gel. They use a low flash powder to reduce muzzle flash.

I have actually been thinking about getting some 180gr Hornady TAP CQ to try in my cousin's Kahr.

In my opinion the Critical Defense sells out so quickly because it is the newest whiz bang idea on the market. It will serve well enough in most encounters, but it makes serious compromises. Hornady TAP ammo compromises expansion by makes up for it in penetration and accuracy.

I would feel perfectly fine carrying Hornady TAP CQ.

I think the Corbon Pow'r Ball is a fine round if you have money to burn or your gun will not feed hollow points. Otherwise I believe you can get similar results from a number of other ammo choices.

very interesting so that's why the Federal LE ammo is difficult to find in stock or for sale. Thanks for that info.

What are the serious consequences of this popular Hornady Critical Defense ammo?

I didn't know that the Ranger, Golden Saber and Gold Dot were exclusive to LE because you can easily find and buy them in the mail. But now I mostly seem available for sale only in the 20 or 25 pack boxes.

Perhaps PDX-1 by Winchester is not exclusively used by LE as you can buy this at Walmart but I understand the FBI favors this load and uses this load as their standard.

Walmart sells I believe UMC? in a 100 pack for 32.97 for .40 cal which seems like a good buy and it's also a hollow point so it must be for personal protection. They also have a FMJ for the same price for target practice.

As far as the Hornady 9mm TAP goes I am able to find this ammo easier than the Critical Defense version but I do notice that the Critical Defense version costs more than the TAP version which to me just looks like a hollow point bullet.

It would seem to me then that Hornady Critical Defense bullets would be fine for home protection inside where you must be concern about what may be behind walls or if there is a miss how penetrative the round is.

I was told that in general you want a heavier bullet if given the choice in grains for better penetration against barriers and to stop a person.

I would have thought that the Corbon Powerball in all of the above calibers especially in 38 special snubby Ruger LCR 1.88 inch barrel would be a favorite as it is very high speed.
Just like Gold Dot now has a .38 spc. l35 grain load for short barrel .38's, .9mm and maybe for .40 and .45 ACP-not sure on these last ones but for sure on the .38 spc. ammo.

 

[AZ Five seveN]

Everything you need to know about self defense ammo can be found here.

FWIW, I carry the Ranger-T 127gr +P+.

Here are the proven 9mm rounds:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

 

[LKB3rd]

I don't know your lifestyle, so this may or may not be a potential reality for you. I would suspect that FMJ or JHP rounds would penetrate the thin aluminum anf fiberglass of most modern automobile bodies. Same with the glass with the possible exception of the front windshield. Still, I stand by my earleir post of

I knew someone in high school who was shot with 4 rounds from an uzi 9mm while he was in the back seat of a car, through the door. Luckily it happened near a hospital, and he survived.

 

[AZ Five seveN]

I don't know your lifestyle, so this may or may not be a potential reality for you. I would suspect that FMJ or JHP rounds would penetrate the thin aluminum anf fiberglass of most modern automobile bodies. Same with the glass with the possible exception of the front windshield.

Words to live by: "Car doors are not cover, concrete is."

 

[MikeNice]

I didn't know that the Ranger, Golden Saber and Gold Dot were exclusive to LE because you can easily find and buy them in the mail. But now I mostly seem available for sale only in the 20 or 25 pack boxes.

The Ranger ammo is getting easy to find because of budget cuts. At least that is what I was told by a shop owner. A lot of departments ordered ammo and then had their budgets cut. They couldn't pay so the ammo ended up on the marker.

The Gold Saber you see at Cabella's and places like that usually isn't the LE version. The LE version is the "Bonded Golden Saber." They bond the jacket and core together. That way the jacket and core don't seperate when passing through barriers. The stuff at Cabela's isn't bonded. It is the "old technology."

Gold Dot is not exclusive to LE. However, the 50 round boxes are supposed to be. The 50 round boxes are sold at a lower profit margin. They make up the difference in volume. The 2o or 25 round boxes are sold at a higher profit margin because civilians tend to buy less ammo than police departments.

Perhaps PDX-1 by Winchester is not exclusively used by LE as you can buy this at Walmart but I understand the FBI favors this load and uses this load as their standard.

PDX-1 is fine ammo as well. However, at a price per bullet level it is more expensive than some of the other premium options. PDX-1 will do everything that the current FBI protocol says a bullet should do. You can buy the Winchester Ranger Bonded ammo and get a very similar bullet for less money per round.

Walmart sells I believe UMC? in a 100 pack for 32.97 for .40 cal which seems like a good buy and it's also a hollow point so it must be for personal protection.

I have never used, tested, or seen a test of the UMC Hollow point so I can not say if they are good or bad. I will say that not all hollow points are created equal. The old Winchester Silver Tip hollow points were once the preferred round of the FBI. They had a different test criteria back then. The bullets passed easily.

They were designed to dump all of their energy as fast as possible to achieve the maximum temporary cavity. This meant they expanded fast, but the 9mm did't penetrate more than 10" usually.

Now a bullet like the Speer Gold Dot uses managed expansion. They don't create as large of a temporary cavity, but they penetrate 12" or more usually. That means if you end up shooting at an angle, or through an arm, you have a better chance of hitting the vital areas. They are more effective at doing what a bullet needs to do to stop a confrontation under more diverse circumstances.

Then you have hollow points like the Magtech Guardian Gold. I have tested them in water with two different guns. I have never had a single one expand.

As far as the Hornady 9mm TAP goes I am able to find this ammo easier than the Critical Defense version but I do notice that the Critical Defense version costs more than the TAP version which to me just looks like a hollow point bullet.

It would seem to me then that Hornady Critical Defense bullets would be fine for home protection inside where you must be concern about what may be behind walls or if there is a miss how penetrative the round is.

The TAP version is a regular hollow point. It is actually the Hornady XTP hollow point bullet loaded with a low flash powder. It is an older design and some claim it isn't as effective as the more modern loads. The big knock is that they are prone to clogging when passing through heavy clothing. I have seen nothing to prove or disprove this theory.

A number of handgun hunters actually use Hornady XTP bullets in their handloads. It is considerred very accurate and in the right caliber can bring down nearly anything. Here is an older article about the XTP Hornady XTP Article

The Hornady Critical Defense round may be good for home defense. However, anything powerfull enough to penetrate bad guys will penetrate walls. It isn't designed to be highly effective after passing through a barrier, but it can still penetrate and cause injury. The big thing is will it work in a worst case scenario.

Say the bad guy moves his arm across his chest for some reason. Now your bullet has to travel through a forearm or bicep and in to the torso. That means you are having to cover an extra 2" or 3" minimum. Not a good situation with a bullet intended to cause only limited pentration.

Like I said earlier the Critical Defense ammo will probably work fine in most situations. However, in most situations showing the gun is all you have to do. So, if all you want to do is cover most situations you could carry an empty gun. However you aren't going to carry an empty gun. So why not carry the best round you can, especially if it cost less per round?

I was told that in general you want a heavier bullet if given the choice in grains for better penetration against barriers and to stop a person.

That is usually correct. However, when it comes to gun shots not all things are the same every time. If you need to penetrate a barrier a heavier bullet is a good idea. You just don't want to go so heavy you lose terminal efectiveness. I have seen 180gr bullets for the .38special. I am sure they serve a purpose, but they would be so slow they would lose much of their power.

I personally like to use the heaviest common caliber for a particular gun. In newer bullet designs they do tend to give better penetration and are more effective through barriers.

I would have thought that the Corbon Powerball in all of the above calibers especially in 38 special snubby Ruger LCR 1.88 inch barrel would be a favorite as it is very high speed.

Out of a short barrl a lot of the advantage of a super hot load is lost. The shorter barrel means less time for the powder to burn in the barrel. That means less time for the pressure to build up and get the bullet to speed.

Plus you have to consider the extra recoil of a round like that. Is it going to stop you from getting back on target quickly for a follow up shot? Will it make practice unbearable? A super hot load is great in theory. However, theorys don't always work in real life.

I am currently carrying a Taurus 85b3. It is a 3" barrel .38spl. I carry Federal LE 158gr+p LSWC-HP. It is a time tested and proven load. It doesn't have all of the hi-tech trickery of the new bullets, but it will penetrate well and expand to about 0.6". I choose them because they work and they are less than $17 a box for 50.

If I had to choose a SD round for a snub nose it would probably be the Federal LE load that I mentioned, the Winchester Ranger 130gr+P bonded hollow point, Gold Dot Short Barrel, or Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWC- Hollow Core in standard pressure.

The Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWC-HC in standard pressure will not do well with barriers. It will fragment. If I am using a snub nose .38spl I pray I don't have to fire through barriers.

If you are seriously considerring a snubby read the article Pocket Full of Dynomite at Handguns Magazine. http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/index.html

Also read the link in AZFiveSeven's post (post #38). It is very informative even if it is short.

Edit To Add:

The more you research and the more time you spend around the issue of bullets and calibers the more you will change your mind. One year ago I would not have thought about carrying a .38spl. Then I studied the tests performed on the round and thought, "that seems like a cool round." After that I started looking at statistics that said in most confrontations less than five bullets are fired total. So, I decided that a snub nose was great. So, I started looking at which round was the best. Then I started thinking, "well the 158gr LSWC-HP is obsolete." I actually said that here on THR last August. Now I'm carrying the 158gr LSWC-HP because of tests I've read and experience with the round.

Just a few days ago three escaped convicts headed through my neighborhood. (I actually started a thread about it.) I realized I had a 5 shot .38spl and a Ruger 10/22 chambered in .22lr. Suddenly that statistic about five shots seemed pointless. I am now looking at 9mm semi-autos with at least 10 round magazines. Preferably the gun will hold 12 or more.

Whatever you decide on today will probably not be right down the road. Don't spend too much time stressing the decision. Figure out which gun you feel most comfortable with. Then choose the premium hollow point that performs correctly in your gun, you shoot well, and that fits your budget.

To everybody,

I know there are a lot of spelling errors in this post. I am too tired to fix them. I know my last post had nearly as many errors in spelling. I was too busy to fix that post. In other words, the errors will remain please try to look past them.

 

[stinger 327]

I knew someone in high school who was shot with 4 rounds from an uzi 9mm while he was in the back seat of a car, through the door. Luckily it happened near a hospital, and he survived.

9mm needs all the help it can get. It seems most people survive when they are hit with mutiple rounds from this caliber.

 

[cobblestone]

I have had good luck with gold dots in all my pistils execpt my witness ( but that doesnt mean anything ), so i use gold dots in all my guns first untill the prove to be unreliable

 

[stinger 327]

The Ranger ammo is getting easy to find because of budget cuts. At least that is what I was told by a shop owner. A lot of departments ordered ammo and then had their budgets cut. They couldn't pay so the ammo ended up on the marker.

The Gold Saber you see at Cabella's and places like that usually isn't the LE version. The LE version is the "Bonded Golden Saber." They bond the jacket and core together. That way the jacket and core don't seperate when passing through barriers. The stuff at Cabela's isn't bonded. It is the "old technology."

Gold Dot is not exclusive to LE. However, the 50 round boxes are supposed to be. The 50 round boxes are sold at a lower profit margin. They make up the difference in volume. The 2o or 25 round boxes are sold at a higher profit margin because civilians tend to buy less ammo than police departments.



PDX-1 is fine ammo as well. However, at a price per bullet level it is more expensive than some of the other premium options. PDX-1 will do everything that the current FBI protocol says a bullet should do. You can buy the Winchester Ranger Bonded ammo and get a very similar bullet for less money per round.



I have never used, tested, or seen a test of the UMC Hollow point so I can not say if they are good or bad. I will say that not all hollow points are created equal. The old Winchester Silver Tip hollow points were once the preferred round of the FBI. They had a different test criteria back then. The bullets passed easily.

They were designed to dump all of their energy as fast as possible to achieve the maximum temporary cavity. This meant they expanded fast, but the 9mm did't penetrate more than 10" usually.

Now a bullet like the Speer Gold Dot uses managed expansion. They don't create as large of a temporary cavity, but they penetrate 12" or more usually. That means if you end up shooting at an angle, or through an arm, you have a better chance of hitting the vital areas. They are more effective at doing what a bullet needs to do to stop a confrontation under more diverse circumstances.

Then you have hollow points like the Magtech Guardian Gold. I have tested them in water with two different guns. I have never had a single one expand.



The TAP version is a regular hollow point. It is actually the Hornady XTP hollow point bullet loaded with a low flash powder. It is an older design and some claim it isn't as effective as the more modern loads. The big knock is that they are prone to clogging when passing through heavy clothing. I have seen nothing to prove or disprove this theory.

A number of handgun hunters actually use Hornady XTP bullets in their handloads. It is considerred very accurate and in the right caliber can bring down nearly anything. Here is an older article about the XTP Hornady XTP Article

The Hornady Critical Defense round may be good for home defense. However, anything powerfull enough to penetrate bad guys will penetrate walls. It isn't designed to be highly effective after passing through a barrier, but it can still penetrate and cause injury. The big thing is will it work in a worst case scenario.

Say the bad guy moves his arm across his chest for some reason. Now your bullet has to travel through a forearm or bicep and in to the torso. That means you are having to cover an extra 2" or 3" minimum. Not a good situation with a bullet intended to cause only limited pentration.

Like I said earlier the Critical Defense ammo will probably work fine in most situations. However, in most situations showing the gun is all you have to do. So, if all you want to do is cover most situations you could carry an empty gun. However you aren't going to carry an empty gun. So why not carry the best round you can, especially if it cost less per round?



That is usually correct. However, when it comes to gun shots not all things are the same every time. If you need to penetrate a barrier a heavier bullet is a good idea. You just don't want to go so heavy you lose terminal efectiveness. I have seen 180gr bullets for the .38special. I am sure they serve a purpose, but they would be so slow they would lose much of their power.

I personally like to use the heaviest common caliber for a particular gun. In newer bullet designs they do tend to give better penetration and are more effective through barriers.



Out of a short barrl a lot of the advantage of a super hot load is lost. The shorter barrel means less time for the powder to burn in the barrel. That means less time for the pressure to build up and get the bullet to speed.

Plus you have to consider the extra recoil of a round like that. Is it going to stop you from getting back on target quickly for a follow up shot? Will it make practice unbearable? A super hot load is great in theory. However, theorys don't always work in real life.

I am currently carrying a Taurus 85b3. It is a 3" barrel .38spl. I carry Federal LE 158gr+p LSWC-HP. It is a time tested and proven load. It doesn't have all of the hi-tech trickery of the new bullets, but it will penetrate well and expand to about 0.6". I choose them because they work and they are less than $17 a box for 50.

If I had to choose a SD round for a snub nose it would probably be the Federal LE load that I mentioned, the Winchester Ranger 130gr+P bonded hollow point, Gold Dot Short Barrel, or Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWC- Hollow Core in standard pressure.

The Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWC-HC in standard pressure will not do well with barriers. It will fragment. If I am using a snub nose .38spl I pray I don't have to fire through barriers.

If you are seriously considerring a snubby read the article Pocket Full of Dynomite at Handguns Magazine. http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/index.html

Also read the link in AZFiveSeven's post (post #38). It is very informative even if it is short.

Edit To Add:

The more you research and the more time you spend around the issue of bullets and calibers the more you will change your mind. One year ago I would not have thought about carrying a .38spl. Then I studied the tests performed on the round and thought, "that seems like a cool round." After that I started looking at statistics that said in most confrontations less than five bullets are fired total. So, I decided that a snub nose was great. So, I started looking at which round was the best. Then I started thinking, "well the 158gr LSWC-HP is obsolete." I actually said that here on THR last August. Now I'm carrying the 158gr LSWC-HP because of tests I've read and experience with the round.

Just a few days ago three escaped convicts headed through my neighborhood. (I actually started a thread about it.) I realized I had a 5 shot .38spl and a Ruger 10/22 chambered in .22lr. Suddenly that statistic about five shots seemed pointless. I am now looking at 9mm semi-autos with at least 10 round magazines. Preferably the gun will hold 12 or more.

Whatever you decide on today will probably not be right down the road. Don't spend too much time stressing the decision. Figure out which gun you feel most comfortable with. Then choose the premium hollow point that performs correctly in your gun, you shoot well, and that fits your budget.

To everybody,

I know there are a lot of spelling errors in this post. I am too tired to fix them. I know my last post had nearly as many errors in spelling. I was too busy to fix that post. In other words, the errors will remain please try to look past them.

The Winchester Supreme PDX-1 ammo is the easiest to find in 20 round boxes in 9mm, .38spc. 130 grain, .40 in 165 and 180 grain and 230 grain .45 ACP.
There is No .357 in PDX-1.

For the Federal HST I haven't seen any for the .38 spc., and .357 loads just 9mm, .40 in 155, 165 and 180 grains. and .45 ACP in 230 grain.

Thanks for all the great info. I am eye balling a LCR .38 spc. with crimson laser grip sight. The LCP feels good in my hand and the trigger pull DA only is a great feeling even over other revolvers that are both S/A and DA. It is a very light gun. Probably not fun or to shoot alot because of the recoil but made for carry conceal since it's so light.

It is made of some type of new high tech metal and the cylinder is fluted. Maybe the Buffalo Bore 158 grain .38 spc. ammo is best for this gun. I recall that Buffalo Bore sells two types of ammo in .38 spc. perhaps different in weight? I don't think the Buffalo Bore is a hollow point bullet but maybe lead?
Federal Hydrashok is another good load I hear especially in the .45 ACP not sure though about the short barrel guns like .38 snub.

But again Gold Dot (20 pack version-Civilian?) makes a 135 grain .38 spc. which is for short barrels and the 1.88 inch barrel on the LCR is that short.

Another brand comes to mind which is Corbon hollow point bullets for the .38 spc. which needs all the help it can get along with the the 9mm which is rated 1,400 fps. Corbon really loads up their ammo to highest velocities. Both Corbon and BB ammo use casings that are marked with that half circle with arrows on the end.
I have seen corbon brass lately so those must be new but the BB brass is still the arrows.

In my other .357 snub 2.25 inches I have the 125 grain Buffalo Bore .357 . I also have this load in my 4 inch .357 which is rated at 1,700 fps but how they come to this high rating I don't know what barrel length they go by.

Interesting then most of all these gold dot 20 packs, golden Saber are civilian loads-not bonded.

So it seems that one should stick with the box of 50 that says it is for LE only. I believe I saw some Rangers boxes like this in 9mm.

I haven't seen any Gold Dot boxes in 50 or Remington golden Saber in 50 boxes.

I have also seen lots of 9mm NATO ammo for sale like 11.98 (great deal) for a box of 50 fmj's. This must be overflow from the military.

I shot a 2 x 4 piece of wood with a old Black Talon .45 ACP and a old Black Talon 9mm and in both cases the hollow point did not expand. The wood plugged the hollowpoint.

 

[stinger 327]

Everything you need to know about self defense ammo can be found here.

FWIW, I carry the Ranger-T 127gr +P+.

Here are the proven 9mm rounds:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

Are these all 50 round boxes?

 

[MikeNice]

Stinger,

Buffalo Bore has +p (plus pressure) and standard pressure rounds. I think they have three different rounds in each category. This is the one I am talking about. It is a standard pressure round built for use in short barrel guns.

If you are looking for .38spl and .357mag Gold Dot and Federal Hydra-Shok is usually available in 50 round boxes at Ammo to Go.

Buffalo Bore is good stuff. It is just extremely expensive on a per round basis.

Double Tap Ammo offers hot loads in both calibers for more reasonable prices. Double Tap has a Nosler 158gr .357mag HP that I have heard great things about. Out of a 1 7/8" barrel it generates about 543 pounds of force.

They have a 125gr+p Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point in .38spl that generates around 340ft.lbs of force in a snubby. You can get Double Tap Ammo in 50 round boxes for less than $0.80 a round.

There are tons of choices out there. If you want penetration the .357 you have combined with the Nosler HP from Double Tap should do the trick with ease.

 

[MikeNice]

9mm needs all the help it can get. It seems most people survive when they are hit with mutiple rounds from this caliber.

About 80% of people shot with handguns survive. It isn't a 9mm problem. Handguns just are not great at stopping things with a single shot. For that you want a rifle or shotgun and that doesn't promise one shot stops.

There was a guy in WWII that was shot twice with a revolver, hit with grenade shrapnel, shot with a rifle, and stabbed multiple times. He was wounded 21 times. However, he fought off more than twenty Nazis and survived the fight.

The human body is amazingly resilient and the will to live can pull a person through a lot of things.

 

[woad_yurt]

The .357 is a mother of a penetrator and 9MM FMJ is pretty good, too. As far as ammo brands go, see the previous posts.

If you're really concerned about hitting a target in a car or even through a car, get yourself a Tokarev or CZ 52. 7.62X25 is the barrier-defeating handgun round. None of those you named comes close. Wolf makes some wicked hollowpoints in this caliber, too, btw.

Indoors, at home, I'm a .38 SPL type of guy. I load my own, 4 gr HP-38/W231 behind Speer's 148 gr hollow-based wadcutters. It's perfect for a 4" barrel, easy to control yet with plenty enough punch to do the job.

 

[AZ Five seveN]

The human body is amazingly resilient and the will to live can pull a person through a lot of things.

This.

 

[stinger 327]

Stinger,

Buffalo Bore has +p (plus pressure) and standard pressure rounds. I think they have three different rounds in each category. This is the one I am talking about. It is a standard pressure round built for use in short barrel guns.

If you are looking for .38spl and .357mag Gold Dot and Federal Hydra-Shok is usually available in 50 round boxes at Ammo to Go.

Buffalo Bore is good stuff. It is just extremely expensive on a per round basis.

Double Tap Ammo offers hot loads in both calibers for more reasonable prices. Double Tap has a Nosler 158gr .357mag HP that I have heard great things about. Out of a 1 7/8" barrel it generates about 543 pounds of force.

They have a 125gr+p Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point in .38spl that generates around 340ft.lbs of force in a snubby. You can get Double Tap Ammo in 50 round boxes for less than $0.80 a round.

There are tons of choices out there. If you want penetration the .357 you have combined with the Nosler HP from Double Tap should do the trick with ease.

Thanks for finding that info on the Buffalo Bore ammo as they do have about 3 different loads for the .38 spc.