Would you trust your life with a 380.

[kokapelli]

Yes we should all carry the ultimate man stopper like South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates because anything less will not stop an attacker.

South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

Thank you bds and Kokapelli.
As bds states someone could be shot through the heart with a 9mm and still function for a few seconds due to the adrenalin dump; a few seconds to return fire.
Yes, I agree-that at home I trust my .45-my favorite, the Springfield Champion .45. I'm very accurate with it, the.45 was my side arm in the US Army I love to fire it and I'm a good shot with it.
But I can't carry it everywhere. So I trust my Kahr P380 as a carry weapon. As more clothes get piled as the winter comes I trust my Taurus Millenium .40 with the Kahr as a backup.
Kokapelli's account above illustrates that a .357 may not take down someone right away.
My comment on placement, practice and knowledge of anatomy was dismissed relating to the .380 yet I still stand by that comment. My Kahr P380 is so accurate I could trust it by acquiring a head shot as well as other well placed shots - I trust it will deliver.
Many here think that bigger is better-I don't agree. Israeli Mossad has killed through covert means with a silenced .22.

 

[Fastcast]

In fact, the reputation of the .380 as a "man-stopper" is poor at best.

Similar statements have been made about 9mm & 38sp but I believe you own and carry both.

 

[KodiakBeer]

As bds states someone could be shot through the heart with a 9mm and still function for a few seconds due to the adrenalin dump; a few seconds to return fire.

Actually, there's no physiological reason for someone to immediately "drop dead" from a heart shot. The heart is pumping blood (oxygen) to the cells, and they can function for a while on lowered oxygen levels before loss of consciousness and death. How long can you hold your breath? A bullet through the heart at handgun velocities isn't likely to completely destroy the heart in any case, it's merely going to be ruptured and leaking. Depending on how much damage is done, you might still function for some time.

Think in terms of someone having a heart attack; even in full defib they usually have time to express their discomfort, call EMS, whatever, before losing consciousness.

 

[MrSpiffy]

The .380 is just fine. The best thing is to carry a gun that you're comfortable with and can shoot accurately. You could be carrying a .500 S&W Magnum, and it won't do you any good if you're going to flinch with it and completely miss what you're aiming at. If .380 is what you're comfortable with, and you're confident that you can put shots where they count, by all means use it.

 

[Kiln]

Similar statements have been made about 9mm & 38sp but I believe you own and carry both.

Exactly. Shot placement is more important than caliber and if you hit somebody in the chest with 2-3 rounds from a .380 it will be very effective.

I read a story in (I believe) Guns and Ammo a while back where a robbery victim raised his gun and shot the assailant twice in the chest with a Kel Tec P32. The guy lived and the would be robber died so I'd say that anything over .25 auto that you can hit with will work fine.

 

[huntsman]

Yes we should all carry the ultimate man stopper like South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates because anything less will not stop an attacker.

South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated.

Moral of the story; It's not what you carry as in caliber it's how much you carry in tactical fat.

 

[Sulaco]

I made it through page four skimming and decided to move on after adding my two cents. My primary carry is a 10mm. I carry a 380 in my pocket when I can't carry. I think that pretty much sums it up.

Oh and since somebody else already brought up the inevitable Trooper Coates story, I'll add that I am from SC, knew about this when it happened, have several close friends and relatives in LE, specifically state LE (HP, SLED, etc.) and if there was ever a freak shooting, that was it. That shooting is now used internationally to teach cadets what could happen and why it's so important to stick to your training and never let down your guard. Mark was on the ACE team (drug intervention) and knew what he was doing, but he got lazy and it cost him his life. It could have happened to any of us, sworn or not.

 

[kokapelli]

I made it through page four skimming and decided to move on after adding my two cents. My primary carry is a 10mm. I carry a 380 in my pocket when I can't carry. I think that pretty much sums it up.

Oh and since somebody else already brought up the inevitable Trooper Coates story, I'll add that I am from SC, knew about this when it happened, have several close friends and relatives in LE, specifically state LE (HP, SLED, etc.) and if there was ever a freak shooting, that was it. That shooting is now used internationally to teach cadets what could happen and why it's so important to stick to your training and never let down your guard. Mark was on the ACE team (drug intervention) and knew what he was doing, but he got lazy and it cost him his life. It could have happened to any of us, sworn or not.

Trooper Coates shot the perp four times with a 357 magnum. I hardly think you could call that letting your guard down.

My point is that the more powerful calibers are not the instant stoppers many people think they are. Shot placement is what determins how quickly incapacitation occurs and I believe that since handgun energy transfer is irrelevent the 380 round will inncapacitate just as quickly as a 9mm will if it's well placed.

It's what I beleive.

 

[LiveLife]

Well, OK. By show of hands, how many would prefer to be shot by 380 over 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP, 10mm, 357 Mag, 44 Mag?

I am kidding, of course.

 

[ChCx2744]

Here's how I see it: No. Why carry something that holds close to the same capacity and is about the same size as a 9mm? Rather carry 9mm.

 

[redbullitt]

Yeah sometimes when that is what I have. I have a kahr p380 that I can shoot every bit as well as my fullsize. No it is not quite as potent, but I can carry it no matter what I am wearing or what I am going to be doing.

It serves it's purpose very well IMHO.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I occasionally trust my life to not having a gun at all. Like when I go into a government building, band, school, or other restricted area (here in Ohio). I guess being armed with a .380 is better than THAT.

 

[doorman]

Everyday. S&W 380 Bodyguard. Gun has never failed to load, fire, and eject. Carry with some Honady Critical Defense and I'm good to go.
Great gun to carry when riding my bike to work.
I have others I rotate in when the weather cools down.

 

[FruitCake]

I carry my BG380 everyday and feel just fine with it. Perfect size with punch and I only carry FMJ in it. Also carry a P32 and I'm just fine with it but will NOT go anny lower than a 32ACP for carry. When I'm out and about these are the only semis ill carry. Anything bigger I find to unconfortable.

 

[AEA]

Would you trust your life with a 380.

NO!

 

[KodiakBeer]

Here's how I see it: No. Why carry something that holds close to the same capacity and is about the same size as a 9mm? Rather carry 9mm

Why? A 9mm out of a 3 inch barrel has less velocity than the hotter .380's.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/results.html

 

[Jeff F]

Hell yes I would and do trust my life to a concealed .380. I also trust and carry a .32 acp at times, hey it worked well for James Bond.

I run Buffalo Bore +p ammo in both calibers for SD

 

[cfrench]

MapleCityWoodsman - no need to bust on the guy's .380 forum question. this is a gun forum. his question wasn't ridiculous your response was!!!

 

[Geno]

A few years back, I found myself the victim/witness of a bank robbery real up-close and personal (think Granddad Bandit). On that particular day, I was carrying my Olive Drab Kel Tec P3AT ( link: http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/p-3at/ ). I was carrying it in an ankle holster, loaded with Winchester Ranger 95 grain HPs, and one spare magazine in my pocket. I didn't really feel under-gunned so much as I wished I had elected a better location to carry it. I had practiced a lot with this handgun, and felt very comfortable. It isn't the caliber, nor the handgun configuration that is significant; it's the capability of the shootist.

Just my very humble opinion.

Geno

 

[LiveLife]

hey it worked well for James Bond.

Not really. He used variety of firearms, depending on the mission, but was issued 25ACP, 380Auto then later 9mm as his sidearm

Didn't know he used a Browning Hi-Power.

Beretta 418 (25 ACP):
Casino Royale 1953, Live and Let Die 1954, Moonraker 1955, Diamonds Are Forever 1956, From Russia, with Love 1957

Walther PPK (380 Auto):
Dr. No 1958, Goldfinger 1959, For Your Eyes Only 1960, Thunderball 1961, On Her Majesty's Secret Service 1963, You Only Live Twice 1964, The Man with the Golden Gun 1965, Octopussy and The Living Daylights 1966

FN M1903 (9x20 mm Browning Long) - Bond chooses this to replace his Walther PPK, which is now banned by the service (I wonder why ... ).
Licence Renewed 1981

Heckler & Koch VP70 (9 mm) - For Special Services 1982

Heckler & Koch P7 (9 mm) - Icebreaker 1983

ASP (9 mm) - The ASP was based on the Smith & Wesson Model 39 pistol and featured clear Lexan grips allowing the shooter to see how much ammunition is left, a rounded hammer, hooked triggerguard and no front sight:
Role of Honour 1984, Nobody Lives Forever 1986, No Deals, Mr. Bond 1987, Scorpius 1988

Browning Hi-Power (9 mm) - Win, Lose or Die 1989

Walther P38K (9 mm) - Licence to Kill 1989

ASP (9 mm):
Brokenclaw 1990, The Man from Barbarossa 1991, Death is Forever 1992, Never Send Flowers 1993, SeaFire 1994, GoldenEye 1995, COLD 1996

Walther P99 (9 mm) - Bond is officially issued the P99 by Q-Branch.
Tomorrow Never Dies 1997 - Present

 

[DougW]

I am carrying one of my Bersa Thunder .380's right now on the road.

 

[Strykervet]

The doctor on here, John Galt (if he truly is a doctor or one in training, I will assume he is) is partially right. It matters more what gets hit than what hits it. But a larger round throught the heart will drain it faster causing blood pressure drop faster. One that penetrates sufficiently in the first place is important --I understand many defensive shootings happen where the round has to pass through the bad guy's arm first, or the shot is oblique. A .380, in this case, might not make it to the parts that matter. Then we have velocity and the extra damage that hollow point does when it expands at high speed. A .380 doesn't get to very high speeds to begin with, and then when the hollow point does open, it expends energy fast. I'd imagine an oblique shot or one through the arm first would have difficulty making it to any organs once it opened. I understand .380 hollowpoints don't go very far in gel, that if you carry a .380 you should use FMJ only. Then you have a better chance of making it to the parts that count.

I think .380's have their place. As backup pistols. Little .22's, .32's, .380's, they are small and easy to hide. If you need a backup pistol, they are great. I carry a .40 or a 10mm, I feel much more confident in the ability of either of those rounds to make it to the parts that count and to cause an end to a fight much faster, plus I don't have a job or situation or anything that would warrant carrying an additional firearm. So I don't feel the need for a backup pistol, but if I did, I might consider a .380, and then yes, I'd depend on it. But I have a 340PD for when I want to pocket carry, so if I needed a backup I'd just use that. .357 is better anyway.

Also, where the doc is partially right, is that if the .380 hits a shoulder or the hip, it's gonna hurt, but it's not gonna stop most aggressors if it doesn't anchor them, and it won't penetrate much anyway. But a 10mm to the hip will drop a bad guy about as fast as one to the head. He might still be concious, alive, but he will be down and in bad shape. I don't have the confidence in a small calibre to stop a fight with a bad shot. I know we all practice and everyone harps shot placement and mindset and all that, but when shooting starts the training goes out the window. You can try your best and sure, it helps, but stress shooting isn't the same as calm practice at the one way range. So again, the big calibre is more desireable.

Since the object isn't necessarily to kill your attacker, it is to stop them and end the threat against you or others, a bigger more powerful round would seem the better choice just to increase survival. Then if needed, a tiny backup pistol.

You know, you can get some pretty tiny pistols in large calibre. The Glock 36 comes to mind as a small .45ACP, then the Rorbaugh 9mm is about the size of a .380, you have the KelTec 9mm, Kimber makes a small 9mm now, the Kahr's are very nice and in all the popular defense rounds, and everyone of these pistols can be carried by just about anyone IWB. A good holster and a good belt, both extremely important and moreso than the pistol if concelment is the issue, and it will disapper. They make tuckable ones. I have two Milt Sparks VMII's and a good belt and they make a G27 or a G29 disappear. I don't tuck 'em, but I have the clips and it works very well.

Also, a good Milt Sparks holster and a good belt and you can carry one of the Ed Brown carry 1911's and have a STELLAR rig. Tuckable and it will disappear because the pistol is thin and held flat against your body. Sure it will be expensive, but man would that be the bee's knees.

With choices like this, the question is why would you want to carry a .380? So as a backup would be the only time I'd depend on one. Oh yeah, and I think small calibre low recoil pistols are good for older folks with extreme arthritis. If you can't fire anything else, then a small calibre IS better than nothing. But here I'd want a .22, a MKIII I think. To each his own though, these are just my thoughts.

And I think if I did need a backup .380 I'd look at that little Sig that looks like a 1911. I'm not really a 1911 fan, although I do want that Ed Brown, I do think that Sig .380 looks like a nice little pistol.

 

[LiveLife]

I know we all practice and everyone harps shot placement and mindset and all that, but when shooting starts the training goes out the window. You can try your best and sure, it helps, but stress shooting isn't the same as calm practice at the one way range.

Very good point. The Range Officer who taught defensive shooting also ran USPSA matches and was designated SWAT/PD/SD instructor. He would invite some of the SWAT students to run our match stages and do shoot outs after we did some hefty work out (jumping jacks/push ups/etc. to push the heart rate to 100+/min) He even lowered the range lights and tossed in some smoke. Average novice match shooters outshot the seasoned LEOs. One officer discharged a round with the pistol in the holster (major "seize fire - seize fire" ).

He explained to the SWAT students that stress of shooting changes everything. He then proceeded to remove the front sight of Glock 22 and had us run through the stage (He had already taught us point shooting with no front sight but the SWAT students were caught off guard ). After the shoot, we got to talk to the officers and they were humbled after some of them shot the concrete floor without the front sight. And these were seasoned officers familiar with the G22.

Unless you train/practice with "realistic" shooting setups, you will not know how you will shoot in actual stressful shooting situations. When I introduce new shooters to defensive shooting, I have them do some physical workout to raise their heart rate up and shoot a fullsize target at 5 yards with their eyes closed. Yes, many will shoot the ground as they push the pistols down in anticipation. That's reality for many. To shoot a charging/moving target with adrenaline pumping through your body that causes your hands to shake and under low light condition where you can't see your sights, that's also our reality that we must prepare for. Add to this reality short barreled/lighter/snappy 380 pistols and you complicate the situation. If you shoot USPSA/IDPA, I encourage you to run a match stage with your pocket pistol after doing some workout to raise your heart rate (about 100+/min) while wearing sunglasses covered with dark film smeared with little bit of Vaseline. After that, let's talk frankly about shot placement in realistic shooting situations.

Since the object isn't necessarily to kill your attacker, it is to stop them and end the threat against you or others

Absolutely, that would be another way of saying "trusting my life ...". As the good doctor John Galt could tell us, gun shot wounds are not always perfect. Bullet trajectory is often deflected/blocked by clothing and/or other objects like hands/fingers/arm etc. It is ultimately the blood loss to the head of the attacker or severing of spinal cord/nervous system that will paralyze and stop the threat. To achieve this, you need both penetration and velocity. It is for this reason why I stress at least 9mm +P JHP. Even with the 380Auto FMJ bullet, you may get penetration to the vital organs but you may lack the velocity to do much tissue injury of internal organs that will cause massive blood loss to cause vascular drain from the brain to stop an attacker in his tracks - this I am not convinced that 380 Auto bullet can achieve. The good doctor could also tell us that there are fight-or-flight and secondary backup systems in our body that will kick in to keep blood flowing to the brain to keep our attacker conscious and alive even after being shot to continue the attack on us. Many gun shot victims interviewed have said they didn't even know they were shot until after they saw the bleeding - this is the reality of adrenaline/stress hormones and fight-or-flight response. Chances are, depending on the body size/type/condition and whether there's influence of drugs on board, even when shot with larger caliber bullets, our attacker may be able to continue the attack/advance that will require additional bullets to cause enough vascular/neurological damage to slow the attack/advance down. Due to this reason, I am not willing to "trust my life" or the "lives of my family" on the 380.

 

[TennJed]

Since I always have read you are NOT suppose to use handloaded ammo for self defense purposes because the prosucution will have a field day and you will go to jail I have made a decision to go in the opposite direction.

I will only carry my P3AT 380 from now on. Not because of its reliability or the fact that it is suprisingly accurate. Not even for the fact that I can conceal it with anything I wear.

Nope I am going to carry it because I am sure it would show the prosicution I have compassion for the bad guy. Seems if I only shoot him with a 380 it will not really do much harm.