Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

A home defense .223 rifle?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by PaisteMage, May 7, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. bigdaa

    bigdaa member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Messages:
    356
    Location:
    Goleta, CA

    While I understand that there is more information than I will ever absorb out there concerning 62 gr penetrating projectiles from the 5.56 platform, this is what I see:


    I can say with certainty that you will not want to be next door to my home if I were to touch off a few rounds of 855 and miss my intended target.

    Here are the barriers: Drywall (.5"), stucco(1"), 15 feet of air, stucco(1"), drywall(.5), flesh.

    I don't see how much more informed I need to be. Do You?
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  2. PaisteMage

    PaisteMage Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    122
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I do not have substantial evidence to go either way on the over penetration issue but I do know several sites that delve into this in a very minute manner.

    From my conversations with ex and current military members and current police officers, the .223 is chosen due to the high fragmentation rate and loss of velocity: less chance of hitting person next door.

    Disclaimer: I am in no way an expert and this is my and their opinion.
     
  3. bigdaa

    bigdaa member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Messages:
    356
    Location:
    Goleta, CA
    I believe that the ammo chosen has plenty to do with this.

    Listen, I do agree with the anyone concerning the argument that the NATO round is a very light and easily influenced projectile, however there items you cannot ignore. The slowing of the projectile in fleshy media due to tumbling and fragmentation at the canelure are big contributors to a limited depth of penetration. No argument from me.

    I don't want to start a brawl fest and I do defer to those with a wealth of knowledge here. In terms of common ammo we all have, M855 is going to kill somebody next door if not attenuated by interim objects.

    Would I use my Carbine for home defense? Of course. Loaded with whatever I had but preferably the hollow point projectiles, lead core.

    Anyway, put your rumble sticks away. Remember that a 5.56 will punch through an 1/8 inch piece of steel at 600 yards.
     
  4. Warp

    Warp Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    9,545
    Location:
    Georgia
    I sure do.

    You apparently think that the entire realm of 5.56/.223 consists of ONE round/cartridge/option. How much less informed could a person possibly be?

    Did you check out this link yet?

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/

    How about this one?

    http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/

    Or, here's a new one for you:

    http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869

    PS: I guarantee I don't want to be next door to your home when you \touch off, and miss with, several rounds of ANYTHING that you are using with the intention of reliably stopping an attacker.
     
  5. Warp

    Warp Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    9,545
    Location:
    Georgia
    Their opinion is factually correct.
     
  6. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,651
    I would agree on the ammo being a factor in penetration. I load mine with 55gr. Ballistic Tips around home. They won't hardly go through a prairie dog without coming apart.
     
  7. Warp

    Warp Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    9,545
    Location:
    Georgia
    Allow me to get right to the heart of that third link I provided above. Written by none other than Doctor Roberts (I dare you to find a more expert witness on this topic than him):

    " Keep in mind that over the past 20 years, the vast majority of the 5.56mm/.223 loads we tested have exhibited significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles after first penetrating through interior walls. Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons. "

    http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869
     
  8. bigdaa

    bigdaa member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Messages:
    356
    Location:
    Goleta, CA
    I think you have an ax to grind there, warp.

    Why don't you relax and let things beyond your control be as they may. There's no reason to be slanderous and snide.

    I happen to have a shelf full of penatrators on hand as well as 55 FMJ's +C. I have 80's and 62's. I've got M856's and even more.

    So what? You can no more guarantee that my neighbor would be safe than I can and there's no need to hissy fit over it.

    You can offer your opinion and I can offer mine. I will lean to the safe side and you will lean towards volumes of tests and other opinions.

    There is no need to blindly flail in indignation here.

    I never professed gospel.
     
  9. Warp

    Warp Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    9,545
    Location:
    Georgia


    What happens when various projectiles encounter barriers isn't a matter of opinion. That's the thing. This is all actual factual information that has been proven over and over again, for years and years.

    I dislike when people spread false information. If you get upset when corrected, that's your problem.

    But, I am curious...what makes you think Doctor Roberts is wrong?

    And what do you choose that you consider to be leaning to the safe side?
     
  10. bigdaa

    bigdaa member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Messages:
    356
    Location:
    Goleta, CA
    First, don't put words in my mouth. I got a wife for that. Never id I ever say the Doctor was wrong. If we are going to engage in a ball game, quit moving the hoop.


    Warp, by the Doctors own explanation, I lay this at your lap to absorb:


    "Barrier Blind means the terminal performance of the projectile is not changed after first penetrating an intermediate barrier."




    Understanding that by my own 35 years of seat of the pants flying, this sums up my concerns to collateral damage in my urban setting.

    While I cannot take the individual losses in kinetic energy per encountered target in the real scenario I describe, I can "feel" what the bullet has to offer by seeing years of impacts in kind of a cloud format of information.

    We all have a certain amount of recollection of target impacts and secondary damage results and I am no exception.

    I'll fully admit that I could be wrong here in certain specific scenarios, but dammit, all it takes is one that I have described being correct to have horrendous outcomes.

    In this situation, indignation need not play into the formula.
    These "ancillary" barriers are not water based and may not induce the power robbing keyhole effect letting the bullet perform more as a penetrating object than a side-on effectively higher caliber intruder to soft tissue.
     
  11. mdauben

    mdauben Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2011
    Messages:
    2,163
    Location:
    Huntville, AL
    The obvious choice is one of the many varieties of AR. The currenly "standard" 16in carbines with collapable stocks would probably be a perfectily fine choice. If you really want to minimize the size, you could build one with a 14.5 inch barrel and permenantly attached flash suppressor (anything smaller whould be a SBR and require a NFA tax stamp). From there, you can go from out-of-the-box stock to as highly modified as you want.

    Prices on ARs are coming back down again so sub-$2K is easily achievable with one of the quality manufacturers.

    Heh! I was confused at first as to why one wouldn't find a Glock 36 in the US? Then I realized you were talking about the H&K carbine. :rolleyes:
     
  12. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    20,911
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Scientific fact is different than mere opinion. 5.56mm is a safer choice for home defense with almost all ammunition. This is fact.

    bigdaa, you are quoting the description of a single type of new 5.56 round, the MK 318. This seems disengenuous at best, and more like a deliberate attempt to deceive. The MK 318 is as like something like Federal 50-grain JHP as a Golden Saber bullet is like a Glaser Blue. :rolleyes:

    You are off-topic, you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the topic, and you're just plain wrong.

    John
     
  13. bigdaa

    bigdaa member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Messages:
    356
    Location:
    Goleta, CA
    Well, in my feeble opinion, that would make our choice of caliber lead to a crappy battle implement from the get go.
     
  14. bigdaa

    bigdaa member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Messages:
    356
    Location:
    Goleta, CA
    I see that mdauben and I are on the same page with a short carbine. You can obtain an 11 inch barrel with a 5 inch flash hider. I happen to have that particular flash hider from DPMS on my 16 inch carbine.
     
  15. Warp

    Warp Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    9,545
    Location:
    Georgia
    Aren't facts a wonderful thing?
     
  16. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    43,463
    Location:
    Terlingua, TX; Thomasville,GA
    A light varmint bullet of 50 to 55 grains would be the least harmful bullet to neighbors. Whatever might penetrate a neighbor's wall would be very much slowed down, and very likely much reduced in size/weight.

    Less risk of harm than with almost any other bullet, anyhow.

    For sure, inside a house, a light varmint bullet would be quite adequately effective in defensive use. Does horrible things inside a coyote, anyhow. :)
     
  17. bigdaa

    bigdaa member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Messages:
    356
    Location:
    Goleta, CA
    I have to say that it all comes down to the choice of ammo you put in your AR defense gun. The thin skin match bullets and like you say, eatman.....varmint rounds which are meant to be very explosive would offer the protection and safety over secondary wound infliction.

    In this regard, we are all able to be specifically outfitted with a tailor made round to the circumstances we find ourselves in with our home and neighbor considerations.

    Frangible rounds would suit the close packed neighbor situations to boot.


    I did notice that you blithely skipped over the Doctor's offering of:

    "Barrier Blind means the terminal performance of the projectile is not changed after first penetrating an intermediate barrier."
    Warp.

    Now, what were you saying about facts being wonderful?
     
  18. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,813
    Location:
    Phoenix Az
    That's why they say ALMOST ALL instead of all. M855 can go through a lot of things. In Iraq we used to "prep" buildings we were going into by shooting them a bit first. I have a friend whose father in law ND'd his AR in his home and the M855 went through his entire house, including to slabs of granite in the bathroom.

    On the opposite side my department uses 55 grain hollow point Federal Tactical as our duty round. In our own testing this round won't reliably penetrate an interior wall if it hits a stud. However it is incredibly devastating against bad guys.
     
  19. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,651
    I would be interested in hearing what bullets were tested in the penetration tests. Even soft point 223 will easily pass through a 6-8" live tree trunk. FMJ makes quick work of 1/4" mild steel at 100 yds.
    I haven't personally tested these bullets on multiple layers so I don't know what happens past the steel plate but I suspect that a bullet with a solid jacket or penetrator core would pass easily through a few layers of sheetrock and plywood.
    Hollow points or hyper expansion bullets like Ballistic Tips are vastly different in performance and I have seen a Ballistic Tip that shattered on a coyotes front leg with the shards of bullet being all that past into the chest to kill it.
     
  20. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    20,911
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Since the human body is only about 12" deep, I disagree. The 5.56x45mm has adequate range and terminal effects for infantry use- something else I understand from an experential and historical basis.

    John
     
  21. bigdaa

    bigdaa member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Messages:
    356
    Location:
    Goleta, CA
    Wow! Not even a stud?

    I am quite aware of Corbons method of using light projectiles at hyper velocities to obtain obscene energy.

    K.E.= 1/2mv², and it shows up quite well in their offerings.

    The remnants of that Fed Tac H.P. must be hard to count, eh?
     
  22. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,651
    Sorry my point was made while typing.
     
  23. bigdaa

    bigdaa member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Messages:
    356
    Location:
    Goleta, CA
    "Bodies" tend to hide themselves in battle as C-grunt illustrates.

    This is the consideration I had in mind when I made that statement.

    Opposition in the open.........one thing.


    Opposition behind a mud wall...........another thing.


    I know one thing for certain, I will be behind a barrier, the best I can find in any altercation.
     
  24. Warp

    Warp Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    9,545
    Location:
    Georgia
    The troll is strong in you. Quite reminiscent of somebody I know, actually...

    If you are concerned with penetration through walls in your HD firearm, why are you loading a barrier blind round? :confused:

    What do you propose as a better option than 5.56/.223, and why?
     
  25. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    20,911
    Location:
    Atlanta
    The MK 318 was specifically designed to penetrate light barriers in a straight line- because other 5.56mm rounds don't tend to do this. Gotta admit, you do seem to be trolling, daa.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page