Rifle for Home Defense?

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I keep a 20" Rossi Stagecoach 12ga loaded with 00 buck, seven more in a stock holder, and twenty five in a belt beside the bed. Pull the hammers back, ready to shoot. Simple, can feel it in the dark. No mechanical action required. Pull hammers back, pull trigger, open, remove, insert shells, repeat. I aslo have a Beretta 96 .40 with two extra magazines, 180 jhp. That's a combined 34 rounds of 00 and thirty one rounds of .40. I shoot and play with all my other rifles, pistols, ect, but the 12 ga has not left the house in 25 years. I shoot the Beretta every time I go to stay proficient with it. Regarding a rifle, I would choose my Ak or M1 Carbine as the next choice, the AK first.

rk
 
My frist HD gun was a SKS Sporter :what: (aka Paratrooper). 18" barrel,thumbhole stock,takes AK mags. :evil: Now becuse of grandchildren, it's a .45 on belt/nite stand. ;) Still works. :D
 
I live in an area where over penetration wouldn't be a problem. No offense to Clint, but I'm secure and happy with my 12 gauge with #4 buckshot and my KZ45 as my home defense weapons.
 
What a bunch of nonsense.


I despise all this talk about the whole penetration issue. Law Enforcement DOES NOT USE the .223 because it penetrates less than a 9mm. If they really cared about penetration, they'd be using frangible ammo to *help* control penetration in residential walls/barriers.


Chances are, they use the .223 because it has better terminal effects on perps and comes in a less expensive AR platform vs. MP5.


Anyways,

Shotguns are terrible for home defense. When I say home defense, I mean inside a home. Not defending the ranch.


What you want is high capacity, good "killing power", low recoil, fast follow up shots, and light weight/manuverability.


For that, your best bet is either an AK or an AR.

1] High capacity - I dunno about you, but I don't intend on shooting just once. Which is better? 30 round magazine or 6 rounds in a shotgun/revolver?

2] Damage - It is a simple matter of fact, rifle rounds do more damage than pistol rounds.

3] Low recoil - the lower the recoil, the better you can deliver multiple shots to a more precise area. Again, emphasis on more than 1 shot. In a desperate panic situation, who says you will score a hit in 1 shot? Let the internet cowboys live in a dream world. Low recoil = speed. Speed is more important than damage.

4] Manuverability. A 44" gun isn't going to be handy in hallways or in the home. This is where the AK, AR and even M1 Carbine dominate.


Best choice would be an AR-15 in a carbine config or M4 with collapsing stock. Keep it short, keep it simple. Next would be an AK. Only thing you give up with the AK is some recoil issues vs. AR. Not much. If you want and must have the handiest, M1 Carbine. Although a pistol round, it's decent. Fast, low recoil. Great for homes.



IF anything, I WANT OVERPENETRATION. If the SOB is in my kitchen, I want a round that will go through the wall and through my solid wood cabinets. Certain parts of walls have many studs, I want a round that will clear that with minimal deflection and minimal loss of power.


I am not looking to be PC. I am not looking to be Mr. Nice. I want to deliver as much lead at the bad guy as possible as quickly as possible. Everything else is BS. Quick and blinding violence my friends.
 
Don't Tread on Me

I'd like to respectfully disagree with you on the "Shotguns are terrible for home defense" point of view.

If you are looking for single round effectivness at inside-the-home distance, I don't think there is anything that could be more devistating than a 12 guage slug. At least nothing thats not in the .50BMG range or the Class III family.

Also, I agree that I'd want as much ammo as I could get, but if you can't nuetralize a threat with six rounds of slugs or 000 at 15 feet, chances are you're already deceased.

I understand how you can advocate a rifle over a shotgun. I just can't fathom how you can justify calling it a "terrible" option...and I'm not even much of a shotgun advocate. I use a mini-30 backed up by a 686 (just for reference).

LG
 
there's another thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=143150 with a link to a picture of a US soldier clearing house in Iraq. Now that is imminent danger. What's his choice?. He's got a M16 hanging around his kneck, I bet he's go a M9 on hist belt. He's using a Mossberg 590 shotgun. I'll take his advice.

And for some further thought, a shotgun is much easier to aim when the light is bad. I have a single shot with no sights, not even a bead. I can still stay on a UIT pistol target at 25 yards using slugs just by aiming over the barrel. Being able to aim over the barrel is a big advantage over a Pistol or M16 Type in the Dark. And this can be done with most pumps.

As to 30 shot capacity or whatever, if there are five armed peaple in your house, you will shoot at most two before you are shot.
 
For home defense, nothing beats a claymore bag full of offensive frag grenades. With straightened pins. Just lob them down the hall.

Seriously, it's 90 percent shooter, and 10 percent gun, IMHO. For that matter, a nervous little dog as an early warning system backed by almost any reliable firearm beats any Rambo special out of reach, when you are awakened too late by a stealthy intruder.

Interesting thread though.
 
The fact of the matter is...if you miss a human target inside a home, its more than likely going to go through a few walls minimum no matter what firearm you use or ammunition selection to my knowledge. I did however read on a 12ga shotshell design that supposedly penetrates one wall and falls down a few feet later, but I can't seem to dig up the link...seemed fishy.

I feel the statement made about shooting through walls into the kitchen can be negligent if you live in a suburban area where the "desired overpenetration" stated could overpenetrate your house into your neighbor's home and in turn penetrate them. Granted I don't know the area or homestead Tread On Me's resides in, but that statement won't work for all of us; it certainly won't work for me.

Reasoning that maximum penetration is wanted would be dangerous to some of us and contradict "know what is beyond your target" but a lot of lines of reasoning in high-stress live/death situations are simplified to fight-or-flight. Overpenetration in an apartment or suburban situation requires one to think about his or her fellow man. If you live in the boonies, it might be more acceptable to clear hallways with .50BMG and have no seconds thoughts in intimidating a robber with a 40lb piece of high-powered steel. :neener:

With that being said, informal tests by Box O' Truth show frangible 223 and buckshot ammunition to be reasonably close in penetration depth compared to one another...on the order of 4-5 walls at a perpendicular angle if you miss the target and hit nothing but wall. Also given most homes are constructed with 2x4 studs 16" between center, theres a 9.4% chance of hitting a stud shooting at any wall span and penetration is reduced (though I wouldn't depend on that useless fact for much other than curiosity).

Most of us are governed by a 16" rifle barrel and would probably select something along the lines of a frangible or hollowpoint ammunition. 30 respective rounds of rifle ammunition would give you 30 tries, and 30-hit or-misses.

Pistols offer unmatchable maneuverability and reasonable stopping power. It won't hang you up by being too long to swing around narrow hallways or obstacles. It falls between a shotgun and rifle on ammunition capacity. However pistols are generally take more time to train with depending on who you are (gun newbie, pistol veteran,etc). Most unexperienced people with a shotgun or rifle can hit targets at 25yrds but not with a pistol, especially heavy triggers on double action revolvers. However not everyone has a 25yard hallway in their home.

6 rounds of 000 buckshot is equivalent to being hit by a 48 round burst of 9mm fire. I can't imagine someone surviving all 6 rounds taken to center mass. You get 6 tries but each hit is going to be taking 8 pellets at a time so each hit you get is going to be hard hitting.

Contrary to popular belief on how a shotgun doesn't have to be aimed and can take out multiple people in one blast, the spread is usually on the order of 1" per yard in an open cylinder bore shotgun. Shooting someone in a home-type environment (unless you live in a mansion) with 8 pellets and a high-velocity hard plastic shotcup from one round of 000 buckshot will leave a grouping so small, you minus well consider it one big messy hole.

For home defense right now, I use a semi-automatic Saiga 12ga "assault shotgun" with a 5 round box magazine loaded with 000 buckshots. I can empty the magazine before the first empty shell hits the ground. It maneuvers like a rifle and hits like a shotgun. I also aquired an AR15 and I'll keep a magazine with hollowpoints and frangibles for home defense but I would make the choice of grabbing the shotgun first.

My summary? Pistols vs shotguns vs rifles as a home defense weapon will never be settled on and universally agreed upon. Everyone here, and even the "experts" in magazines, books, or institutions don't agree with one another for various reasons. Pick what is most suitable to your specific environment and abilities.
 
I'm not a big fan of buckshot, but any long gun is better than a handgun. I just wish someone would develop a home defense slug designed to expand through a person.
 
Sensitive Environments

Many of us live in an area where the ARs and AKs are frowned upon. A simple Rem 870 (or similar type), a Marlin 357 (or similar type) or an M1 carbine might be cheaper in the long run when you have to face the grand jury. I think that the grand jury members are picked by judges in my area. Do you have liberal judges in your area?
I am sure that the most effective weapon will be the one with which you are most proficient. Caliber and type mean little. A 10-22 in the hands of a trained and determined shooter is a ferocious weapon.
Go to the local indoor range and observe the marksmanship in evidence on the firing line. Then decide if a pistol is the wisest choice.
 
Any firearm is going to be made as evil as possible by a prosecutor.
He (or she) would likely say:

-a revolver is for someone with delusions of being a cowboy in the Wild West who wants to shoot now and ask questions

-a semi-automatic plastic pistol like a Glock or anything in 9mm as the choice among gangs and criminals

-a semi-automatic 1911 or similar pistol as a military designed weapon

-lever action rifles would follow a cowboy description similar to the revolver

-non-assault rifles like semi-automatic or bolt-action hunting rifles are extra-powerful sniper rifles that can kill bears miles away and overkill for humans

-semi-automatic assault weapons as military-inspired killing machines

-50BMG rifles can shoot through four schools and an airplane

-semi-automatic shotguns as street-sweeping crowd-mowing death machines

-pump-action shotguns are law enforcement firearms and shouldn't be used by civilians.

-birdshot as ammunition designed to riddle as many holes as possible in a human and kill them

-buckshot as overpowered and enough to kill deer and is equivalent to taking an SMG burst

-slugs as ammunition powerful enough to penetrate entire cars and overkill for humans.

-hollowpoints are designed as man slaughtering bullets that rip holes in people

-full metal jackets are armor piercing cop killer bullets

-magnum rounds are overkill and can shoot through multiple people

-specifically advertised home defense ammunition like Glassers or frangible ammunition is designed specifically for shooting human targets

Anything can be twisted with false statements, half-truths and will be presented to whoever is going to be deciding your fate in court. There is no such thing as a safe, wholesome, acceptable home-defense gun or ammunition in the eyes of any prosecutor.
 
Don't Tread on Me

I'd like to respectfully disagree with you on the "Shotguns are terrible for home defense" point of view.

No offense taken. Perhaps I've exaggerated by calling it terrible. Instead, I feel it is not the most ideal.

If you are looking for single round effectivness at inside-the-home distance, I don't think there is anything that could be more devistating than a 12 guage slug. At least nothing thats not in the .50BMG range or the Class III family.

This is why it isn't ideal. I don't believe in the single round effectiveness for any weapon. Sure, if you do land a 1st shot on the badguy with a shotgun, it is over and lights out for them. Not only will the shot likely be fatal, but it will be an insta-threat stopper. While the 12 gauge is certainly a single round stopper, it is just as easy to miss with a single shot from a shotgun as it is with a carbine at that range. Couple that with the higher recoil which slows down your target re-aquisition and slower reload time of having to work a pump (unless you have a semi-auto) are a few reasons why I feel carbines are more effective.

A 556 to any part of the torso is going to have serious effects also. Serious enough to do what you need to do. At the same time, your muzzle hasn't moved much, you're ready for shots 2,3, and 4+ and you still have 25+ left before reload time. Not to mention, penetration through walls is superior, which I feel is an advantage and a positive feature rather than a liability. Just my opinion.

Also, I agree that I'd want as much ammo as I could get, but if you can't nuetralize a threat with six rounds of slugs or 000 at 15 feet, chances are you're already deceased.

Makes you wonder why the police bother with 30 round rifle magazines or 15-17 round magazines in their pistols?

Not trying to be a smart-a** in the slightest bit, but the choice weapon of most entry teams isn't a shotgun. It really isn't a good idea to speculate on what should and shouldn't be acceptable for stopping a gun battle. It is always best to have as much as is practically possible. Oh, if someone is in your home at night - assume it will be a gun battle. Prepare for the absolute worst.

I understand how you can advocate a rifle over a shotgun. I just can't fathom how you can justify calling it a "terrible" option...and I'm not even much of a shotgun advocate. I use a mini-30 backed up by a 686 (just for reference).


It's not terrible. I was wrong. A Ruger 10/22 would be terible, but still better than baseball bats, knives, BB guns, sprays or fists.

To me, fast + volume = good. If I can deliver a lot of rounds, fairly accurately, with great speed, chances are they will be maimed by a hail of lead before I will be.


Just take my logic to an extreme. Say we add full-autos as a consideration just for the sake of discussion. If you had to choose between a Full Auto M4, a Mossberg pump 12ga, or a S&W 44mag revolver to eliminate a threat at close range...which would you choose? I'd take the full-auto M4. There is only 1 "feature" of that weapon that makes it more appealing, volume of fire.

Since I can't have full-auto (at least easily), I have to settle for quick semi-autos with magazine capacities as large as possible.


PS, good choice with the mini-30.
 
Sometimes it gets to the point, where lots of folks, (virtually none of which have any experience in the real world), are throwing up their fiercely held views, (most garnered from some web site), and the cacophony of mis information becomes almost mind numbing. This is one of those times.
 
my two cents worth since most home defense situations are at a distance of 10-25 ft it really boils down to using the weapon your most comfortable and profecient with. and as with all skills planning and practice will greatly improve your odds. having had only one hd event in my life which was resolved without gunfire. 3.00 am 7-26-98 i was awakend by my dog who bless his heart generally only barked when someone came into yard. i peered out window to see one person moving towards my side entrance. i grabbed my 686 s&w and stood by bedroom door the intruder entered home and moved towards my bedroom as he stepped through doorway i calmly placed said revolver near his left ear and shouted for him to not move . he was quite shocked and fully complied. he had no desire to see if he was faster than my finger. I handcuffed him and we walked to the front porch to await the police who arrived approx. 4 mins. later. the main thing here was the fact my wife and I had practiced for this event so we were not guessing what each should do. had he turned the other way when he came in he could have taken my tv or whatever i can replace things. at these ranges any weapon will work it's a matter of the owner /operater knowing what he/she will do.
 
Carbine

Most overlooked here is a pistol ammo carbine. For me the home defense / suburban warfare is a Kel-Tec sub 2000 carbine, in 9mm, backed up by a SA XD9 tactical, in 9mm. Three mags, one mfr 10 rds and two Berretta 17 rds, for the Kel-Tec and four 18 rds for the XD. Using mil surplus at 1150 fps the carbine, with a 16 inch barrel, puts the 9mm out at 1400 fps +/- 25 :uhoh: . That makes it a 357 mag :evil: with a range of 100 meters. In my neighborhood you can not shoot over 100 meters with out hitting a house, car, tree, and a good or bad guy :p .
 
Here's the HD gear I plan to have

Long Gun: M1A EBR with Saiga 12 Mounted like a 203 & a Surefire light
Bedpost Gun: Para Ord 14-45 1911 with Surefire light

M1A EBR (For the Curious)
m1aebr8zq.jpg

Colapseable stock, Pistol Grip, Full SOPMOD abillity, & is all in a drop in kit.
 
I have given this issue much thought, talked about it with many fellow shooters at ranges, etc. I have two kids, ages 6 and 3 that are routinely exposed to fire arms of all sorts. My concerns are not abou them getting in to the guns. I practice regularly, so I am fairly confident I'll hit what I am aiming at.

That said: BANG in the night and some one is in the house, I need a fire arm for home defense. My house is to small to be (2000 sq ft, narrow upstairs hall with 2 90 degree turns) weilding even a carbine. It is easier to bring to bear a hand gun in those situations. So then I have a choice of the 3 I own. And I own 3 partly because they all have the potential to pull HD duty.

1st Choice: .45 loaded with 2 rounds of varmint loads followed by 8 Federal Personal Protection rounds.

2nd Choice: .38 Airweight all Federal Personal Protection.

3rd and Final Choice (if in the unlikly event that the other 2 fail to fire) Walther P22 w/ JHPs

If I had a larger house or a different layout (kids rooms are between me and the top of the stairs) I would consider a rifle.

For some reason (spread) I would never consider a shotgun for HD.

This is of ourse only my opinion. One Fact: What ever you choose to use in your home, you must practice with on a regular basis (But 99% of the readers here already know that)
 
AR Pistol in either .223 or .40 cal gets the nod for me!

Easy to swing with a 10 inch barrel, has better range/power/accuracy than a handgun, and has 30 round mag capability(plus it has my scorpion flashlight mounted to it for target identification)... It will do a number on anything within a 100yds ,and do it quickly(even at night) with my red dot scope on it :)...
 
For me, a shotgun is my first choice regardless what a writer writes.

As for a rifle, after spending much of the day yesterday with my M1 .30 carbine with a 30rd mag, I believe it to be a very capable, effective and manageable gun for this purpose. At 1990fps, the .30 caliber 110gr HSP bullet is more than sufficient for close range. After all. if it was good enough for thousands and thousands of troops in WWII, it's good enough for me. ;)


unvM1carb.jpg



carbine_training_ww2.jpg
Learning marksmanship with the M1 Carbine at Warner Robins Air Service Command, Robins Field, Georgia, July 1943.


AM30C06.jpg
 
Great thread. For advance preparation, envision rule 4 of 4 (especially the "what is behind it" part). While maneuverability is a consideration in weapon choice (bbl length was mentioned), what situation would have you chasing someone through your home or clearing a room? Leave that to the 911 response team. I'm sure someone can come up with one, but keeping your ground vice hunting the bg(s) out may be in order. Every situation is different, so investigating a bump in the night would determine a different weapon choice. These situations should be thought out in advance as much as possible. Penetration of walls is a factor, and this article has some interesting conclusions. All of the preceding has been IMho and ymmv.

Detailed Information Regrading Penetraition Of .223 Ammunition
 
Next would be an AK. Only thing you give up with the AK is some recoil issues vs. AR.

That's not true. I'm a fan of the AK platform and cartridges, but the AR is considerably more ergonomic and has better sights than virtually any AK.

As far as "well some soldier does..." to prove something, that means nothing. Squat. Zilch. Some of the least informed folks I've known- who actually did fire weapons- were in the Army.

Full auto fire is not necessarily helpful for S/HD. FA is really most important on squad support weapons. The best training nowdays stresses two quick semi-auto shots to near targets with M4 or similar weapon.

John
 
3rd - rifles are long range weapons - even carbines and though they will put down a BG at close quarters as well as a handgun or shotgun there's a real good reason they usually aren't used for that.

Heh. Rifles are excellent short range weapons. They don't put "put down a BG at close quarters as well as a handgun", they do it much better. In addition to power and speed issues- winner almost invariably carbine over handgun- carbines have advantages as impact tools that handguns do not.

A handgun, extended to firing position, extends about as far out as a carbine. Try it for yourself. When you factor in the additional control and speed a stock gives, the additional weight and mass that absorb recoil and enable fast time on target, and the additional power a carbine typically has, the only good reason to use a handgun is ease of concealment. That's it.

John
 
I disagree with JShirley on this one. Take a rifle and a pistol, "at rest", I certainly can bring the pistol into effective play faster. Maybe that's just me. Like I said before, I'm content with my 12 gauge, and my .45acp as my home defense weapons. By all means use what you believe in.
 
Understand even in a good shoot, they're gonna take the weapon used while the shoot is under investigation, and it might get mishandled during that period (i.e. dings, rust, etc.). Not saying to go cheap on what you use, but I wouldn't use a piece that would be hard to replace or something you wouldn't want dinged up when they throw it in the patrol car. A friend of mine was involved in a fatal shooting of a car thief, and the local PD held his Colt Python for a few months.
 
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