Rifle for Home Defense?

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Some will defend the use of a shotgun for home defense until the cows come home.
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Even after. When asked what scared them the most when breaking and entering, convicted felons in a prison survey did NOT respond with, "The sound of a MAC-11 being cocked." :rolleyes: They responded with "The sound of a pump shotgun."

I have an 870 as my first-string HD weapon because it will go off when I pull the trigger, and I'm good with one. And the psychological impact is a factor that, if I ever have a situation where I need my 870, I hope will negate my ever having to fire.

People frequently assume that there would be only one intruder, and/or that you'll get him with the first shot.
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You drop the first one with a 12 ga., all you'll see of the rest is tail ends and elbows.

And for Pete's sake, if you are going to use an SMG for HD, at least use the best: the HK MP5SD. ;)

The level of training involved in using an SMG for HD is for most, a far cry from reality. I have had the training, (MOUT with an MP5SD) and still prefer an 870.

My brother-in-law insisted on a rifle for HD, even after I tried to get him into a shotgun, so I advised him to get a pistol-calibered rifle. He got a Marlin 9mm Camp Gun, and it was a good choice. He has since added a Glock 9mm.
 
"what about an m1 carbine? short, light with decent enough stopping power."

If it had a folding stock and a flash hider, I'd say an M1 carbine is an EXCELLENT choice for HD, especially based on the qualifications I've previously mentioned.

"entropy," who said ANYTHING about a SMG? I didn't. You are assuming my MAC-11 is full auto and it IS NOT. Full auto for HD is so far out of the realm of practical I can't believe you made that assumption.

Also, this "I'm gonna scare the bad guy with the 'sound' of my shotgun being racked" stuff, is one of the most flat out dangerous, hollywood induced pieces of bad information that persists in the gun community. WHERE do I begin with that one?!

1. A bad guy hearing you rack your shotgun MAY run off, or he may realize that your magazine is not at full capacity anymore (if it ever was).

2. Trying to scare the bad guy with sound effects is NOT a tactical move, it's theatrics.

By the way, hostage situations in home invasion scenarios (the bg has your wife or kid at knifepoint) makes a shotgun usless and the bg can successfully order you to drop your gun. I actually remember a news story where a homeowner shot and killed a home invader WHILE the bad guy was holding his wife hostage.

P.S. How did your brother in law get a Marlin Camp-9? It must be used because Marlin stopped making them didn't they? If he likes that Camp 9, he'll LOVE Masterpiece Arms' MAC-11 9mm CARBINE: takes sten mags, has a compensator and front end pistol grip!
 
Just a thought, but if the intruder hears you rack the shotgun, then IMHO you let the bad guy get too close to you while you were holding an unloaded gun, unless he has good hearing...

I agree the sound is intimidating, though. Maybe if you could get one of those Hollywood shotguns that makes a racking sound every time you pick it up... :D
 
I live in a townhome. Overpenetration is definitely an issue. However, I have a couple of revolvers that I can use to fight off intruders until I can get my safe open. I guess I need to get that mag extension for my 870 Express.
 
To echo others (who are probably more knowledgeable than myself), the folding-stock M1 carbine seems perfect for the job. Everyone is saying it's a "weak" round--perfect for indoors, I would assume. And, the folding-stock versions can ususally be had at gun shows if you look hard enough (saw about 20 of them throughout a show a little while back). Bigger/better than a regular handgun, but smaller than an SKS (which, IMHO, would suck to clear a house with.....that puppy is loooooong...but it does have a bayonet :D ). Just my opinion.
 
The handgun should only be viewed as a concealable weapon you use to get you to your rifle.
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The above statement - often made on THR - strikes me as - well - OK - I can't say it this being the High Road and all.

1st off where the hell is the rifle that you'd have to fight your way to it? Makes no sense at all. I imagine lots of folks could give lotsa reasons why it's not close at hand in a home defense situation but they're all BS. Your HD weapon of choice should be close at hand at all times. If one chooses to use a rifle for home defense :rolleyes: then keep it at your bedside or where ever you happen to be while at home. Fighting your way to your rifle while in your home... Puhleeeze. :rolleyes:

2nd - in the unlikely event that one does have to fight (ROFLMAO) his/her way to the rifle by the time you get to it having had to fight your way there you've probably eliminated the threat (in your physical home - not talking about defending the 40 here). If not it seems likely to me that you're up feces creek and that rifle isn't gonna be much of a paddle.

3rd - rifles are long range weapons - even carbines and though they will put down a BG at close quarters as well as a handgun or shotgun there's a real good reason they usually aren't used for that. I won't go over the reasons we've all heard them a thousand times before.

4th - Home Defense is not the same as 40 acre defense. Homes are closed in with hallways, closets, small rooms and open spaces. In that environment a short barreled shotgun or a handgun rules if one has to move - if not then I suppose a rifle would be OK but IMO if you're gonna hunker down and wait for the BG's at inside the home ranges then a shotgun loaded with #4 shot would be even better.

If one is defending his 40 then a rifle is the best tool to to do it with - otherwise it just gets old reading that:
The handgun should only be viewed as a concealable weapon you use to get you to your rifle.
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:barf:
 
3rd - rifles are long range weapons - even carbines and though they will put down a BG at close quarters as well as a handgun or shotgun there's a real good reason they usually aren't used for that. I won't go over the reasons we've all heard them a thousand times before.
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The reasons have been brought up, and debunked, time and time and time again. Overpenetration is exaggerated, and as has been pointed out there's actually a GREATER problem of overpenetration with many handgun rounds or buckshot than with a proper HD rifle bullet. Besides, every time you miss with a short gun, you send a bullet going lord-knows-where.

If you really think you're going to be more accurate and lethal with a handgun than a carbine in close quarters--more power to you. But most of us know the carbine is vastly superior in every respect.

As far as fighting your way to a long gun, I don't mean shooting and doing a TJ Hooker roll. I mean using the handgun to cover you until you get to your long gun, then taking the long gun and proceeding.

A HANDGUN IS A DEFENSIVE WEAPON
A HANDGUN IS A DEFENSIVE WEAPON
A HANDGUN IS A DEFENSIVE WEAPON

Learn it, live it, love it.

If you're going to go INTO a dangerous situation, whether that's in your house or on some battlefield, you should always have a long gun at your shoulder whenever possible. There's a very good reason soldiers don't go into battle with sidearms. The ONLY exceptions over the past THREE HUNDRED YEARS of warfare I know of were the tunnel rats, and they only used 1911's because they were going into very, very confined spaces. Spaces far more confined than anyone's home.

" Know that the pistol has no value, we practically don't use it. "
Mordechai Anielewicz, Warsaw Ghetto, April 23, 1943
 
As far as fighting your way to a long gun, I don't mean shooting and doing a TJ Hooker roll. I mean using the handgun to cover you until you get to your long gun, then taking the long gun and proceeding.
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And in what type of scenario in a typical home would one ever have to use a handgun to cover himself while moving to the long gun? That is what I find to be utterly rediculous.

Homes aren't barns! They are closed in and comparmentalized spaces. If one is good enough to defend oneself with a handgun while moving from one space to another to retrieve a rifle one is good enough to use the handgun to finish the job. Why make the task more difficult by trying to move to and retrieve a rifle while in a life threatening situation.

If one must use a rifle then keep it with you or within reach while at home. Better yet use a short barreled shotgun for CQB.

OTOH it's probably best to use the weapon each is most comfortable with whether it is the best choice for the environment or not. I wouldn't choose a rifle in an HD situation, I'd choose a 18 or 20" barreled shotgun 1st, a semi-auto pistol 2nd and a revolver 3rd. The only way I'd use a rifle would be if it was the only thing close at hand.

From having served on 3 different USN ship's self defense forces (team leader on one) my experience tells me that a rifle in a home defense (read closed in compartmentalized) situation is a non-starter.

Each team I was on had 6 to 10 guys. Generally there were 2 shotguns, 2 M-14's and the rest 1911's issued. I hated having the M-14. It was too heavy and too long. The shotgun was better but not by much. The pistol was my choice and when I became team leader while on CG-20 USS R.K. Turner that's what I carried. We practiced all the time hunting down intruders and based on that experience there's no freaking way I'd ever use a rifle (even a carbine) for HD.
 
And in what type of scenario in a typical home would one ever have to use a handgun to cover himself while moving to the long gun? That is what I find to be utterly rediculous.
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It's simple. Assuming your handgun is closer to you, you pick it up and have it at the ready while you move to wherever your long guns are. If you have your long guns near you, skip this step. Not complicated at all. The handgun is a defensive weapon who's only real advantage is concealability and ease of transport.

Homes aren't barns! They are closed in and comparmentalized spaces. If one is good enough to defend oneself with a handgun while moving from one space to another to retrieve a rifle one is good enough to use the handgun to finish the job. Why make the task more difficult by trying to move to and retrieve a rifle while in a life threatening situation.
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A carbine is no more difficult to use in a house than a handgun. In fact it's a lot easier. If you're in a situation where you may need to use a firearm, you want to be using your most accurate and lethal firearm. Very simple.

From having served on 3 different USN ship's self defense forces (team leader on one) my experience tells me that a rifle in a home defense (read closed in compartmentalized) situation is a non-starter.
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I'd suggest that a ship, with hatchways, lots of men and narrow aisles to move around, is a lot more confining than a typical American home. Most modern homes have hallways and doorways large enough to move major appliances through. And an M-14 is no carbine.
 
The right gun is the one you can use in the dark, groggy from having just been startled awake, that fires reliably 100% of the time, that you can hit with at will.

Only after all that do you then consider caliber, etc.

A champion trapshooter is probably better off with an over-and-under shotgun than a pistol he hardly uses. The highpower rifle shooter is better off with her .308 than a shotgun that she never uses. The Cowboy Action Shooter might wisely favor a lever-action in .45 Colt, over a Glock that is seldom taken out of the nightstand. That .22 plinker you shoot 200 times every Saturday is likely to be more deadly than the gun-rag 'fighting supergun' you bought last month.

No single sheetrock wall in your home is likely to stop any stray round, so "over penetration" is not a major issue, compared to "useable without thought or stoppage".

You get the idea. Your weapon has to work. You have to be able to work it under extremely unfavorable conditions. Only after that is type, caliber, etc, relevant.
 
Rifle for HD? Maybe...

I'll expect any cartridge I fire (with the exception of shotgun birdshot) will go through every thickness drywall until stopped by the brick on the outside of the house. These "low penetration" 5.56mm rounds still penetrate several thicknesses of drywall, ususally enough that the 5.56mm round would hit the outside brick. Knowing my shot & bleeding kid caught a tumbling lower velocity 5.56 projectile somehow is cold comfort. That is a big, "Not Good Enough."

It boils down to knowing where your family members are and not firing if their location is in line with the intruder and your weapon, be it pistol, shotgun, or rifle. Know your backstop.

In my situation, we have to worry about kids getting their fingers on the firearms. That makes a pistol in the quick-open pistol safe the best answer. A long gun out & loaded is a non-starter.

A magazine-fed carbine with the mag in the quick-access safe holds some allure, as does a 20gs SxS shotgun with a few rounds of birdshot in the safe. (That safe is getting mighty crowded by about this time.) Both magazine carbine and SxS would be slower to bear than a handgun.

Last, what about your spouse or responsible older child? What weapon(s) might they be competent with? I've spent more time toting M16A2s & M4A1s than just about anything else, but my wife hasn't and doesn't know what S.P.O.R.T.S. stands for. She is most familiar with the 1911 manual of arms and I'm passing fair with one. We both know the failure drills and are comfortable with the 1911, so that is what we use.
 
You guys, esp. Burt Blade just reminded me....need to buy a bayonet for my Mossberg 590. I may suck rocks as far as hitting with the shotgun, but I *will* sink the blade...

Another thought, is bathing in the enemy's....I mean intruder's blood going to reflect poorly on me in the police report?
 
Fix Bayonets!
Forward, at the double!
Charge!


A couple I know favor edged weapons. Hubby keeps a Katana beside the bed. His wife favors an axe, or a Kukri. (And both are quite proficient in the proper use of those items.)

I really do not want to see the aftermath of that close encounter.
 
I agree with Brian Williams.

But in deference to others, I'll need two of those Marlin carbines.

One that I can use as I fight my way to the other one...

Seriously (and I mean it; I'm genuinely curious), how many extended firefights take place within homes?

Years ago, I had an apartment broken into while I was in it, and the whole incident couldn't have taken more than a few seconds (though it seemed to to take forever). (And no, I didn't shoot the intruder.)
 
I made the assumption that the MAC-11 mentioned was full auto because it was never stated that it wasn't. Perhaps SM-11 would be a better term for it.(Nothing wrong with an SP-89, then, either! :D ) My brother-in-law did indeed buy a used Marlin; he did so because he did not want a 'military' looking weapon. (I had suggested the Kel-Tec and the Ruger 9mm carbines also.)
As for shotgun for HD, unless one keeps it loaded, you're going to have to load it while they are in or just outside trying to get in. I wouldn't rely on their hearing that to stop them, but it just might. I have two younger children at home, so keeping it loaded is a nogo. I have arrangned it so I can be ready for action quickly, yet safe as far as kids are concerned. And for those concerned about barrel-grabbers, I'll quote Clint Smith:"Then he'd better hang on, because I am going to light him up, and it will be an E-Ticket ride!" PS: Re the wife held by BG: The maximum range inside I would be firing is 8 yards (measured) My 19" cyl. bore with my HD load has a spread of 3.5 in. If he is hiding behind her so much I can't get a shot, he probably can't either. Besides, she can take a flyer pellet or two for the team, right? :evil:
 
i can understand both sides of the rifle/pistol argument, but what's got me stumped is why everyone needs a folding stock on their carbine.

are you people advocating defending your house with the stock folded or extended?

if you're in your house, i don't see why you would need a folder.
 
a .22 cal rifle will do in a pinch if it's all you have... it's not the 'best' arm.. nor in my opinion is a 30 round poodle shooter full of SS109.

The best feature of the semi auto carbine OR shotgun is the ease of using it with one hand while using a phone, checking a door, etc...

A pistol caliber carbine or M1 Carbine might be ideal... but I'd still go for a shotgun.
 
The best feature of the semi auto carbine OR shotgun is the ease of using it with one hand
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To me the best feature of a semi-auto is being able to load and unload in an instant, as the situation in the house changes: day/night, at home/gone, etc

I usually keep my rifle with the mag loaded and bolt locked open so all I have to do is pull and release the bolt handle to make it "hot"

But if I want to leave or something I just have to yank out the magazine to unload it. Sure a lot more convenient than a lever action.

All the BS that the hoplophobes rant about semi-autos and removable magazines, but I consider that to be a "safety feature ;)
 
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