A Non-AR Shooter's Views On The AR-15

[Fabius]

The rattling around is another matter. That's a function of the light weight I think. I feel almost no recoil, but the thing bounces around a lot.

The rattling sound may be the buffer. Standard buffers have three weights in them that shift back and forth in recoil (designed that way).

Spikes Tactical makes a buffer, the ST-T2, that is filled with tungsten powder rather than solid weights and, among other things, gets rid of the noise that the solid buffer weights make in recoil. If your buffer is a standard weight buffer, then a heavier buffer may also smooth out and soften the recoil a bit. Carbine buffers come in standard weight and progressively heavier weights designated H, H2 and H3. The Spikes buffer is between and H and H2 weight.

 

[Sam Cade]

It forced my hand/wrist into a completely unnatural position.

Not bent is unnatural?

 

[Tirod]

A refreshing and interesting perspective. Likely some of us will link to it for those who would appreciate the viewpoint.

Yes, it's lightweight, and goes directly with the light ammo you carried. All too many shooters completely forget the average military user will likely have to walk miles between places to shoot - and then maneuver in combat with 300 rounds of ammo, a gallon of water, body armor, an MG bipod or LAW, NVG's, etc etc.

Slings in that environment are often removed and stowed away, the gun must be kept at hand and combat ready. The gun is not configured well to be shot with a sling, entirely due to the traditional swivel mount attached to the barrel. It will shift the point of aim if tightened up to International target shooting practices - which is NOT how the gun should be used unless or until a free float is installed. At that point, it's range capable.

Be careful in assessing the trigger needs replacement - as most target triggers use an adjustable take up screw to eliminate creep and slack anyway. One way to look at it is that proper adjustement - like the millions of bolt guns sold with one - will take out 65-80% of the travel, which means NOT creeping over 65-80% of the grit or roughness, too. That improvement can be had for less than $40, no gunsmithing needed, as opposed to $250 for a "great" trigger. You get your money's worth.

Ratting goes right along with the easy two pin takedown. Fortunately, it has nothing to do with accuracy at all, and attempting to get it quiet is money spent for almost nothing.

A good optic and quality ammo will go a long way to tightening groups, next would be a quality target barrel. Until all three are acquired, no other accessory will be any use at all, and most only add small increment improvements - including the free float. It's no joke that ammo and barrel makers can say what MOA is possible with their products - but all the others can't, and won't. It's not possible without the basic accuracy being there, the stuff they sell just doesn't LOSE as much accuracy, it's impossible to add more than that.

Interesting read, takes us back to why we choose to use the AR.

 

[BrocLuno]

As a farm boy who shot heavy old guns as a kid, I had about the same reaction when I was handed my first M16 in Army boot. We all grew to respect the Mattel rifle.

Ever see what one of those little 5.56 ball rounds will do to 5 gallon bucket of water? And yeah, we were all glad we did not have to hump 06 all over the place

Guess it does make a good gun for a "bike" guy

 

[Cosmoline]

The gun is not configured well to be shot with a sling, entirely due to the traditional swivel mount attached to the barrel.

What about just using the M1907 as a hasty sling, and not rigging the forward loop for my elbow? I can't imagine the POI shift from the pressure would be half as bad as the generally cruddy off-hand accuracy due to the light barrel. My off hand arm is used to holding an M39, and kept overreacting to the little carbine's weight. I did some experimenting last night and even in a hasty format the leather sling really helps me lock it down.

 

[taliv]

The gun is not configured well to be shot with a sling, entirely due to the traditional swivel mount attached to the barrel.

i don't understand that statement at all

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

i think what he's saying is since there's no free float tube, sling pressure will change POI

 

[Cosmoline]

I was watching the Marine training video again and they're certainly using the sling to steady their A2's. Is there a different attachment point for the carbines? Does it tweak the pins attaching lower and upper or something?

 

[Sam Cade]

Does it tweak the pins attaching lower and upper or something?

Your carbine has an extremely slender barrel so its possible to cause a shift just with sling tension. The barrel is actually flexing.


A2 profile barrels are much thicker so they arent as prone to do this.

 

[Cosmoline]

Hmm. How much of a bend are we talking about? If this is a minor shift it won't matter, esp. if its consistent and I can adjust for it. Or is this something where I could actually bend the barrel permanently?

If I understand the problem I'd need to swap over to a stiffer handguard that does not clamp to the barrel and that has a sling attachment point on it.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

with a mini-14 which has a similar profile to pencil barrel ar's, and a gasblock mounted sling swivel, I've witnessed a 12 MOA shift in impact at 100 yards.

you probably wont permanently bend the barrel.

 

[Cosmoline]

"Probably"? Are you saying that just putting standard sling pressure on this barrel *could* permanently bend it? That's not acceptable at all, but I have a hard time believing it could happen to modern steel unless the thing is white hot.

If I'm putting that kind of pressure on the thing, surely the upper would start to pull loose of its moorings before the barrel itself bent.

 

[taliv]

guys, you're not going to permanently bend the bbl with sling pressure.
you can flex it ever-so-slightly, but it's as much 'harmonics' as anything

 

[Sam Cade]

Hmm. How much of a bend are we talking about? If this is a minor shift it won't matter, esp. if its consistent and I can adjust for it.

You could pull it off a couple inches at 100 yards easily of you sling up hard.

Or is this something where I could actually bend the barrel permanently?

Not through normal use, but I do realize I am talking to a guy who bicycles in the snow.

If I understand the problem I'd need to swap over to a stiffer handguard that does not clamp to the barrel and that has a sling attachment point on it.

Well, kinda. Folks that shoot DCM and such that have to keep their rifle looking stock but want the best repeatability sometimes use forearms like this.
http://blackrifleworks.com/dcm-cmp-free-float-tube-p-120.html

You don't have that problem so any free float tube will do the job you need so long as it has provisions for mounting a sling.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Using sling support will shift the POI on a non-freefloated AR. I am not sure if it is due to actually flexing the barrel prior to the shot or whether it is due to changing how the barrel vibrates during a shot; but you'll have a different POI using sling support vs. not using sling support.

If this is a minor shift it won't matter, esp. if its consistent and I can adjust for it.

The shift in POI is noticeable at 100yds and is as consistent as the shooter is. The Marines managed to shoot E-silhouettes at 500m for years with slung A2s, so it appears to be manageable.

Or is this something where I could actually bend the barrel permanently?

I haven't yet seen someone bend a barrel simply by sling pressure. My hypothesis is that there is very minimal actual flex of the barrel due to the sling and that it is the change in barrel vibration that accounts for most of the difference - just as if you rested the barrel across a barrier when shooting.

 

[amd6547]

I use a military black nylon webbing sling on my AR, and I do use it as a hasty sling. I don't tighten really hard on my arm...just enough to steady-up. No POA change problems.
BTW, this is with a retro styly A1 build using an M16A1 GI surplus upper.

 

[Sam Cade]

I've witnessed a 12 MOA shift in impact at 100 yards.

Nearly 13 inches of deflection?

Wow.

Was he completely slung up and locked down?

 

[Cosmoline]

OK, that clarifies it a bit. I suspect there are some problems because the sling attachments are on upper and lower. I'm not going to be doing any of the uber-tight competition shooting with the special jackets. This is strictly range shooting with off hand out to 75 yards and kneeling to 100. Beyond that, with these sights, my eyes are no longer able to keep it together. Guess I need to spend another grand on that ACOG ;-)

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Nearly 13 inches of deflection?

Wow.

Was he completely slung up and locked down?

He sure was.

"Probably"? Are you saying that just putting standard sling pressure on this barrel *could* permanently bend it? That's not acceptable at all, but I have a hard time believing it could happen to modern steel unless the thing is white hot.

If I'm putting that kind of pressure on the thing, surely the upper would start to pull loose of its moorings before the barrel itself bent.

no, i'm saying that it'd be really difficult to bend a barrel without breaking your sling or swivels, but I don't want to say never and have someone prove me wrong.

 

[Ramone]

Representive target (a good one, but not a fluke) with tightly slung M4gery (prone)

I find NO significant change in POI with/without sling. The rifle will consistanly make 1-2 MOA.

 

[goon]

Cosmoline - Your posts always seem well thought out so it never would have occured to me that you didn't know your way around an AR-15. Still, I'm glad you like the rifle. I hope to add one to my collection shortly.

 

[Cosmoline]

Thanks! One thing I love about firearms and shooting is there is *always* something new to learn. The cost has been the big barrier to the AR's for me, as I suspect it is for a lot of other folks. This is the most I've spent on a firearm pretty much ever.

 

[MCMXI]

Not bent is unnatural?

"not bent" isn't what the folks at MAGPUL had in mind when they designed the AFG. Its design is intended to rotate the wrist downward in order to place the extended thumb parallel with the barrel so that the thumb points at the target. I don't find it comfortable or natural to rotate my wrist downward in an exaggerated fashion. That's why I find the LaRue FUG or any other "stubby" vertical grip to be a much better choice. The vertical grip acts as a stop, my wrist rotates to a comfortable and natural position, my thumb rests on top of the rail rather than on the side of the rail. It works for me.

 

[bushhogger]

I'm New to thr, been looking on this sight for a while,I just bought an DS arms sa58,I was just looking for a little feed back on it, the gun was slightly used, almost new gave 700 for it, shoots really well, but the front sight needs to be adjusted, is there a special tool for it, I'm hitting about 3in low at 100yds with the rear sight set at 400yds, so I need to turn the front sight down, looking forward to yall's feed back

 

[Cosmoline]

There appears to be a tool out there, but per the folks above a 5.56 tip and a small pair of pliers should be enough. I found these instructions particularly helpful:

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=599