Almost drew tonight: witnessed a near murder in a front yard

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Dirty Bob

Dirty Bob

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Scary incident tonight:

I was walking home from my mother-in-law's house, where I was helping out by changing out a hose bib. I had a "Jack Bauer bag" with me, with a few wrenches, a screwdriver, teflon tape, etc. Holstered in appendix position was a Kel-Tec P-11 in a Galco "USA" IWB holster, and I had a P-32 in my back pocket in an Uncle Mike's pocket holster.

As I rounded a corner about 1/2 block from home, I saw three young men in a front yard, in some kind of very animated discussion. Let's call them Yellow Shirt, Gray Shirt and Black Shirt. I was across the street and about 1-2 houses away.

Yellow Shirt turns to me and yells, "Sir, please call the police." At that point it got ugly, with a 2-on-1 fight that went into a side yard. I got on the phone and told police dispatch of a 2-on-1 assault, along with descriptions and the address.

Some neighbors were trying to intervene at this point, but I saw no good reason to get closer to a violent situation that I didn't understand.

I was backing off to a further distance when one of the two grabbed a garden hose, whipped in a loop around YS' neck and began strangling him. This was the point where I felt that I had to intervene. I couldn't watch a murder take place in front of me. I was starting forward when one of the neighbors started hollering at the strangler and for some reason the two guys let go and backed off for a moment. YS took advantage of this and jumped into a car that was parked there and sped away. I was still on the phone with the dispatcher and gave the plate number and description.

Several neighbors had moved into the situation by this point, and the GS and BS were telling their side. I heard "...slice the fat off that <deleted>." yelled by one of them. I decided I was better off away from there and went home.

After reaching home, I called the dispatch to clarify one point, and to give my name and address. At that moment, two units flew down our street and whipped around the corner to the scene of the assault.

I think I did OK, in that I tried to be a good witness and stayed out of the situation. What spooks me is that a situation like the attempted strangulation looks like a no-win for a person like me. I had absolutely no idea what was going on, but there I was, about to pull a gun on the two guys strangling YS. Had they continued, I would have only had two choices: let them kill him or shoot. I don't like that type of situation at all.

Any suggestions?

Dirty Bob
 
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Police officers rolling up onto the scene you described would have been obligated to stop anyone in the act of strangling another - regardless of the reason for it. You, on the other hand, were not attacked and were under no obligation to intervene. However, if you reasonably believed that a person was being strangled to death, you could have shot the "strangler" to try and save a life (if you felt compelled to do so) and maybe not be prosecuted. But, you would be taking on great personal risk for that person. What if they were all friends just horsing around? What if the victim dies and the surviving bad guys tell a completely different story. If you were the only one on the scene with a gun, you will be looked at the hardest.

It's a very tough decision to make in that moment. I guess it all comes down to #1). How sure are you that this person is in mortal danger, and #2). How confident are you that you can effectively handle this situation if you try to take control of it? And finally, #3) Will there be sufficient evidence/witness testimony to back up your story after it's over.
 
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I think the likelihood of successfully shooting someone actively strangling another with a garden hose and not shooting the one being strangled is slim. If you pull a gun and shout a command to stop, it seems that it would be pretty each for him to put YS' body between you and him, and then what are you going to do? Stay there in a stalemate until police arrive? What are you going to do when he lets go and drops the attack?

I think you did fine. I wouldn't want to be in that situation, and am not trying to armchair quarterback.

Josh
 
Sounds like a no win situation, but I think you handled yourself well. You considered pulling your weapon, but didn't react too quickly. A very balanced response to a very unbalanced situation.
 
You got the police involved, were a good witness, didn't see anyone get killed, and stayed at a safe distance.

Sounds like you couldn't get any better than that.
 
Any suggestions?
Click to expand...

call the cops, and go home.

no sense in changing your whole life by possibly killing 2 people in defense of a third person you know nothing about. doubtful any of them would be worth all that.

....and no, i wouldn't expect people to come to my aid if i were the one being strangled. i don't hang around/start arguments with shady people.

doesn't sound like they wouldn've killed him anyway, whether the neighbor interviewed or not. if that were the case, they probably would have just started beating him. sounds like they simply wanted to act tough in front of eachother or scare the yellow shirt. wanna be tough guys.

you did the right thing, as others stated. :)
 
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This would be a situation where pepper spray might be usefull. Then hitting the 'victim' isn't such a big deal!
 
Job well done...didn't try to enforce laws...activated 911...prepared to intervene when a fatality was eminent...thankfully you didn't have to. Perfect example of a prepared armed citizen.
 
Gregaw said:
This would be a situation where pepper spray might be usefull. Then hitting the 'victim' isn't such a big deal!
Click to expand...

Until all three complain to the police that they were just walking home from helping at the soup kitchen and had stopped briefly to discuss some bible verses when you suddenly went nuts and attacked them for no reason at all.

I think OP did well, call the cops, observe, and report. If it's clear that things are going south, decide for yourself whether you want to intervene.

It's relatively easy to draw a line on when to draw and fire a gun to protect yourself. It's far more difficult when it's a third party in a situation that's dynamic and confusing.
 
Never get in the middle of a fight you know nothing about. Who, what and why.

Just call the PD like you did, report, and stay clear of it. You're carrying that gun to protect you and yours from harm, not get involved in something you don't know what is going on. Get involved, and you just may have to use that gun, and the future repercussions can cost you $$$ you'll be paying for, for many years to come, or even jail time.

I notice that carrying a gun all too often gives one a false sense of bravery, and power. In this case, a good stout walking stick or can of pepper spray would have have been way better. A gun is not the blank answer for a lot of things. Strategies and tactics instead of hardware.

Or as Steve would say, software over hardware.
 
ONe nice thing about the situation, regardless of how it played out, was the presence of multiple witnesses. I know, I know... the more witnesses, the more stories. But their presence makes "Until all three complain to the police that they were just walking home from helping at the soup kitchen and had stopped briefly to discuss some bible verses when you suddenly went nuts and attacked them for no reason at all" less likely to fly.

Josh
 
Dirty.. You did right and that's that. You're exactly what cops hope for - a bystander that actually picked up the phone and gave them a good idea of what you saw occurring. Lots of possibilties for bad things happening if you had intervened. Glad no one was killed (young men will do foolish things, ask any Marine recruiter...). As a retired cop I was always grateful for reasonably accurate info from a witness who had the good sense to update us as the events unfolded. Your neighbors are lucky to have you. You get a solid "attaboy" from this corner....
 
Well, there certainly is nothing I can add that already hasn't been stated, and I concur with everyone's posts!
 
Until all three complain to the police that they were just walking home from helping at the soup kitchen and had stopped briefly to discuss some bible verses when you suddenly went nuts and attacked them for no reason at all.





LOL dont forget helping every old lady they saw cross the street.
 
Dirty Bob -

Getting involved as a 3rd party is NEVER something a civilian should do. To use your weapon, you need to know beyond a doubt who is who and what exactly is unfolding. And these are things you can't know with any certainty. You took the best course of action in calling the police and acting as a witness.
 
Thank you for all the responses. I've been back and forth on this one, but at the time I thought how I didn't know who was who, or who was a "good guy" or "bad guy." For all I know, Black Shirt and Gray Shirt are related, and they'd just caught Yellow Shirt molesting their nephew, or maybe he stole money or a car, or was fleeing from a hit-and-run they'd witnessed. Or maybe they're all gang members, and this was over a drug deal gone bad.

It's tough to watch someone being hurt, but I've done it before. This time, however, I was afraid I was about to witness a killing.

I think Carl did an awesome job (as usual) of summing it all up with clarity and insight:
Never get in the middle of a fight you know nothing about. Who, what and why.

Just call the PD like you did, report, and stay clear of it. You're carrying that gun to protect you and yours from harm, not get involved in something you don't know what is going on. Get involved, and you just may have to use that gun, and the future repercussions can cost you $$$ you'll be paying for, for many years to come, or even jail time.

I notice that carrying a gun all too often gives one a false sense of bravery, and power. In this case, a good stout walking stick or can of pepper spray would have have been way better. A gun is not the blank answer for a lot of things. Strategies and tactics instead of hardware.

Or as Steve would say, software over hardware.
Click to expand...

I think the large number of witnesses helped defuse the situation. The police seemed to take forever to arrive, but it was really pretty darned quick.

I agree with all the posters who see nothing but trouble in intervening. Had I done so, I might have wound up "owning" what eventually went down. A number of ugly scenarios have run through my head, and I'm so glad that none of them came to pass.

Thanks again. THR in particular has given me a lot of the "mental ammunition" that helped me to choose being a witness as my default action. I'm just grateful that no one died.

All my best,
Dirty Bob
 
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