another reason why we should stay out of NYC

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lionken07

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I return to NYC after moving to AL for a few days. Now yesterday night I went out with a friend of mine. We went to a park to chill and talk a bit, that was when a cop car show up with two cops in it. They asked us what we were doing in the park. We told them we are just there to chill. They looked at us and ask for our ID. We showed them the ID but since he was standing directly on my top right he was able to see my AL pistol permit right next to where i put my driver license in my wallet. He then ask me we have any weapons in the car, I said no. that was the part where it got me. He asked me to step outside of the car. and then went on and search us AND
the car. One of the cop asked me why i need a pistol permit, I told him sir down south your allow to protect yourself
The NYPD then ask us to sit in the car and went back to their car to check on the computer. Of course it came back clean. (I know NYC laws so I didn't bring my firearms but of course my gun permit stays in my wallet)

Now from what I know what give them the right to pat us down and search the car like they did? The park close at 9 and we were only there until 9:15. There were a few other cars there but they didn't search those like they did to ours.

Cliff notes: I went out with a friend to the park and got pat down search by cops and then they search his cars too.

Thanks alot NYPD now I won't go to your city unless I really have to. I'm just glad that I decided to move outta here before.
 
I swear to everything that i love that is true. They even got scared after they saw my permit and called for back up (i know cuz we saw another cop car half a block away standing by at the time).
 
Did you friend (the owner of the car) consent to his car being searched? If so, their reason is a moot point. If not, or not given the option, then the curfew violation just might have been enough for a search (in the eyes of a NY judge). Would have never happened where I live. Do a search here on THR for the thread about the NY cop who gave a speech to a group of Colorado LEOs, where he advocated a whole bunch of 4th amendment violations in the "war on terror." Be happy you left. Don't look back.
 
One of the cop asked me why i need a pistol permit, I told him sir down south your allow to protect yourself
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Thats when I cringed. Police anywhere tend to get rather annoyed when you give snarky comments to their questions. Even then the police officers where rather overkill. Probrobly needed to make their quotas but it could have been worse. You say that in parts of North Carolina and they probrobly drag you of to jail or you get some bubba in Alabama.
 
They basically didn't ask or anything before they went and search it. We comply to everything that they ask but his car still got searched...:rolleyes: If those two NYPD officers are reading this: Remember people that break the law usually won't go thru the trouble of getting permits...:neener:
 
Now from what I know what give them the right to pat us down and search the car like they did? The park close at 9 and we were only there until 9:15. There were a few other cars there but they didn't search those like they did to ours.
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Nothing.

Nothing at all.

In fact, unless there was a reasonable suspicion ("based on articulable facts") that a crime had been committed, was being committed, or was about to be committed, they had no right to even demand identification. If you gave him a driver's license, that's identification -- he had no right to ask for another document in your wallet.

And, absent the aforementioned reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, they had no right to pat you down, and they very definitely did not have any right to search the car.

File a complaint.

BTW -- aside from this incident, may I suggest that it may be wiser to carry your pistol permit in something other than your wallet. Suppose you get jumped when you're armed but don't have a chance to go for your piece (yet). The bad guy asks for your wallet. Your choice is to hand it over or get shot, so you hand it over. BG looks through it, sees a pistol permit, and you just got NOTICED. Now you're not just another patsy. He will likely figure that (a) you may be a serious threat, and/or (b) you may be carrying a gun, which he might like to possess. Either of those would be sufficient to get you shot.

I carry my permit in a separate case, in another pocket from my wallet.
 
Just a question, are police allowed to ask for identification? Considering you are not engaging in criminal behavior, and are just sitting around in a public place.
 
And they wonder why I left NYC

I left NYC in 1975, [that city and it's police force are overrun with corruption, New York sucks]I now reside in Westminster, Colorado. I presently have a CCW. I was pulled over in Boulder, Colorado a few years ago. Well the cop took my License, Insurance and registration, he saw my CCW permit. He asked did I have a weapon. I told him I was carrying my SIG. He went and ran me for wants and warrants. The result was he gave me a warning and said that he didn't want me speeding in his town. He was very polite. No problem. Yes sir, Yes Sir, Yes Sir. I've had similar dealings with LE types in Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico. In every case the police were polite and once they took my Hi-Power from my pac emptied it and laid in on my car. I only got cited in Texas. In every instance the possession of a firearm was a non issue. The police made sure I was not a threat and educated me as to the fact that highways are not race tracks. I have to admit in all instances I was driving one of my sportscars. Now had I been pulled over in the 'Rotten Apple' and just having a CCW permit, they would have probably called out ESD (that's the NYC equivenant of a SWAT team). New York City Police are in my opinion the bottom of the barrel in Law enforcement, and I don't say this lightly in that I have traveled extensively. I think that the most professional LE CONUS are the Texas DPS. I much prefer flyover country.
 
I can't state the exact case, but a US Supreme court decision allows the police to request that you identify yourself and you have to comply. Anywhere in the USA and for whatever reason.
 
park was closed at 9pm.... you were there at 9:15pm... you were tresspassing. thats a "C" summons in NYC. That was enough to ask for ID and to pat you down. Its not enough to search the car.
The cops could ask you both to get out of the car but there is no way to articulate a reason to search the car. An out of state pistol permit doesn't open the door for a search of the vehicle. If there was a shell visible on the floor, thats enough, but not just a permit.

I did a year with the NYPD before I moved into federal law enforcement and I can say there are alot of shortcuts that can be used to get into a car to search it, but if the story is as you say, then I don't see any here.

sounds like a this is a civilian complaint waiting to happen...
 
You might give the cops some understanding.
They have to deal with the scum-of-the-earth on a daily basis and that could turn you ultra-cynical. Especially in a megalopolis like NYC.
 
They can do a protectice pat down, while they are questioning you, for yours and thier protection.

Unless there is a sign that says vehicles in the park are subject to shirt you have every right to refuse the search. I have down it, pissed the officer off but oh well.
 
Lets see here, you were caught red handed committing a crime, it was minor, but still a crime. You were asked for ID, proper and legal for LE to do in this case. You end up flashing a out of state carry card. Asking if you have a gun, proper and prudent for LE to do.

You reply with "sir down south your allow to protect yourself ". Depending on your tone, body language and Officers perception it could have been perceived as a smart ass remark.

Lets break this down.

(1) Trespasser
(2) Trespasser with a pistol permit
(3) Trespasser with a pistol permit that maybe hostile towards LE (matter of perception based on what you said to officers and how they heard it).
(4)Officers legally checked you and the area that you were in control of. This would be based on reasonable suspicion that you may have a fire arm on you or in you car.
(5) Officers checked NCIC on make sure you were not a bad guy.

It sounds like you actually had a positive experience with NYPD instead of a negative one. They did fudge the rules by not issuing summons but who cares in this case.
 
"another reason why we should stay out of NYC"

It's not the police that make NYC the hole that it is...

"it sounds like you actually had a positive experience with NYPD instead of a negative one."

Agree.
 
winning on a known anti LE board
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So, which board was that? Couldn't be THR since they ban cop-bashers on sight, and they have a few cops who work as mods here.

Free tip bud, telling someone to fight the government over 4A violations isn't anti-cop. Some of you may be used to living as slaves, but those of us in free lands saw the story as a disgusting breach of a man's rights.
 
Don't do the crime if ya can't do the time... ;)
The 15 minute (over) lapse... busted. Instead of "We're just leaving officer. I/We didn't realize how late it was..." it's ..."just there to chill." Might be a stupid law (aren't a lot of them?) but it did give them enough cause/reason to interrupt your "chillin' time".

Attitude is everything sometimes, ain't it?

But I can see why you're a little tweaked about it.
 
They have to deal with the scum-of-the-earth on a daily basis and that could turn you ultra-cynical.
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That, in itself, does not give anyone in a position of authority leave to do something illegal or unethical.

Not knowing the NY laws and not being at the scene of the incident, I can't legitimately comment on what happened.
 
(3) Trespasser with a pistol permit that maybe hostile towards LE (matter of perception based on what you said to officers and how they heard it).
(4)Officers legally checked you and the area that you were in control of. This would be based on reasonable suspicion that you may have a fire arm on you or in you car.

I followed your step progression just fine until 3-4. 'reasonable suspicion that you may have a firearm on you or in the car'. That is bunk. Neither the permit nor the comment adds up to 'reasonable suspicion' regarding a gun in the car, nor would a Smith and Wesson T-shirt, NRA card in your wallet, old hunting tag sitting on you dash in plain sight, business card of a shooting range in your wallet, American Rifleman magazine in the back seat, or anything of that like.

the jump from seeing a permit in the wallet to assuming you are armed to the degree it warrants a car search is too far of a jump.

As others have said, seeing an empty cartridge, a magazine (clip, not rag), even a holster, would. Other stuff, nope
 
Bunk or not I could persuade a court that it was reasonable with the totality of the situation for Officer safety. Maybe if I had to deal with a more Liberal Judges it could get difficult.
 
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