Any suspicions about electronic 4473 forms?

[JustinJ]

Not at all, just a window of understanding as to how and why people form their opinions. An old friend once told me that his father always told him that it was easier to understand other people's opinions if you knew from where they got their cornbread.

Well, I hate to burst your bubble but there are plenty of non-progressives who fail to subscribe to the conspiracy theories. Regardless, "it allows easy identification" seems to imply a little more than just finding a "window of understanding".

It seems some folks here are not interested in discussing various orthodoxies but would rather project a straw argument towards those who do not bow to the favored opinion.

Could you be slightly less vague? Stating that it is paranoid to assume these computers have secret nefarious intent is not a straw argument, if that is what you mean.

I think that given the problematic operations of any government bureaucracy that it would be hard to make an argument with a straight face that the BATF is to be trusted to follow the intent of the law, whether they are folks of evil intent or a bunch of bumbling Barney Fife types. Why is that so hard for some of you to understand? Do you work for the government and are therefore unable to admit that either you or your brethern are incompetent, mismanaged, or misguided?

You suspect us of working for the government because we don't believe in some completely unfounded conspiracy theory? Wow, talk about conspiracy theory on top of conspiracy theory. When one wants to, they can see a conspiracy in anything. Essentially, that is what this is. Anything new will automatically be labeled a conspiracy and any explanation against said conspiracy will be considered a part of it.

I have been exposed to humanity long enough to formulate my own conclusions. 25% of the population care about being honest, working hard, and are competent in their chosen vocation. 25% could be competent and honest but they simply don't think it is necessary or fair to put forth maximum effort, and the other 50% are either too incompetent to understand their own lack of positive traits or have made a decision to get what they can for themselves and screw the rest of the world...... I have found that ratio to be pretty widespread no matter how you divide the population. Go ahead, tell me THAT is also a conspiracy!!!

No, that's just selective observation to validate your political biases and world view.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

Justin: As in the past, you are completely void of any intellectual honesty. Thanks for being consistent.

 

[wally]

But it would take some shoe-leather, they couldn't just punch a button and call up the list

Investigate some ancient history, how long did it take the FBI to learn that Lee Harvey Oswald bought his Carcano from Kliens by mail order? (Hint, he was still alive at the time).

This was pre-GCA '68 with mail order guns and ammo ads in the back of Boy's Life and other magazines "except for NYC"

All the "Gun Control" since has only been to inhibit the lawful user, no other purpose to it. We need to attack the same way they are attacking "voter ID" laws.

 

[dogtown tom]

Arkansas Paul For someone who has more knowledge than me of the situation, are the e4473 forms even saved to the computer's hard drive or are they just printed out and closed out when that particular form is completed?

When setting up the E4473 the dealer can choose settings that allow him to export the records to a hard drive or other storage device.

 

[22-rimfire]

When setting up the E4473 the dealer can choose settings that allow him to export the records to a hard drive or other storage device.

So it is usually more than just a tool to print out a completed hard copy. If I were a dealer, I would save the records and if it was legal, not even keep a hard copy. You can think whatever you want to about that... good, bad, indifferent...

 

[Ryanxia]

I just spoke to an employee who is switching to an electronic 4473 and said that she'll be interested to see how many/what guns she's bought this year since it can be sorted by name. That's much faster than going through a year's worth of books and will make it that much more tempting.

 

[JustinJ]

Justin: As in the past, you are completely void of any intellectual honesty. Thanks for being consistent.

As opposed to the intellectual laziness of ad hominem? There are no weaker debate tactics than personal attacks without even an attempt to support them.

 

[Reloadron]

Back to the eFORM 4473.

I went ahead and downloaded and installed the software which was pretty simple. I have not held a FFL for well over 10 years, anyone can download the software.

The setup was simple as the entire program is little more than some form software. That is all it is. Anyone who has created a form using for example MS Info Path knows how simple creating interactive forms is.

During the install process the user has the options of installing the software to the location of their choice. The default will be C:\ but if you have other drives or partitions then have at it. Once installed the user can provide the user information like FFL number and other seller information. Really not much to it. The form software does not phone home or contact the mother ship and as was previously mentioned will run just fine on a stand alone computer sans any Internet connection.

As to Internet Connection? There is no need for it. Updates like the zip codes .csv files can be downloaded on another computer then installed to the correct location within the software.

Here is how it works and like many simple routines it doesn't get any simpler. I went with a simple default install to the C:\ drive of this computer. Here is what it looks like.

Here we have the eFORM 4473 folder on the C:\ drive:


Now we open the folder and take a look at the sub folders:


The Forms folder is where the completed 4473 forms will be stored if the seller chooses to retain the electronic copies. So the completed forms are stored to that and only that location. This really does not get any simpler, believe me.

Let's look at some of my sales, these are in the Froms folder above.


Now by default the forms are saved as a .pdf file type. The gun I sold myself is saved this way. Yes, files can be exported but in order to export a file it must be saved as a .csv file (Comma Separated Value) which while not difficult does require some effort. You can see the gun I sold to Jack Daniels I saved as a .pdf (default) and also a .csv file type. Only Jack Daniels can be exported by the software and using a program like MS Excel can be opened or using software like MS Access, those or an OO (Open Office) equivalent. Incidentally a 4473 form opened in Excel as a csv file looked like crap.

Can the dark forces hack their way into a computer and get this information? I guess so, especially on an Internet connected system with a weak or no firewall. The dark forces could find the software doing a system search and get whatever they want assuming it is there to get. The seller need only maintain the signed printed paper copies. Once a transaction is complete the .pdf files in the forms folder can be removed.

Overall the software is pretty nice in that it will catch and flag mistakes on the 4473 form. Do I personally see anything to fear or worry about using the eForm? Nope. However, to each their own. If anyone is curious enough just download and run the software.

Ron

 

[45_auto]

Ron, this is an internet discussion forum. Please do not confuse the posters by using logic, facts, or common sense.

 

[Reloadron]

Ron, this is an internet discussion forum. Please do not confuse the posters by using logic, facts, or common sense.

My apologies and of course you are correct. I won't let something like this happen again.



Seriously, this got me curious enough to download the software and take it for a test drive. I am not and never was a software engineer but over the years did write some data acquisition software that dumped data into data bases, I also wrote some forms software where forms were completed and saved (locally or on a server). Most of this argument is much to do about nothing. For the curious or concerned? Download the file and take it for a test drive.

Ron

Ron

 

[Bubbles]

If you're storing PDF copies of the 4473's please use an encrypted drive for that. The data on the forms - full name, DOB, POB, SSN, etc - is more than enough for ID theft if your computer is ever lost or stolen, and it should be protected. TrueCrypt is free and easy to use.

A stupid criminal working at a gun shop would sell guns out the back door, and he'd likely be caught and sentenced to prison for a very long time. A smart one would sell copies of pg 1 and 2 of the 4473's to ID thieves as that would fly under the radar for a long time, and even if he were caught the penalty is pretty minimal.

 

[HKGuns]

the E4473 is form filling software only. It does not send anything to ATF.

^^This^^ God forbid a company should try to speed up and streamline the checkout process.

What is the difference between paper and computerized form filling software? If the ATF wants to look at your 4473's all they have to do is go to the FFL and pull his forms. As stated earlier in the thread they are required to retain them for 20 years and if they go out of business or lose their FFL they are required to turn the over to the ATF.

Don't let your ignorance get the better of you. Eventually every FFL will use this software because it is more efficient. Where will you buy firearms when that happens?

 

[zxcvbob]

You can call me stupid or paranoid if you want; you're the one losing the sale, not me. I have plenty of guns already, but can always buy more "on the street" if I have to.

 

[Robert]

Oh enough.