Ceteris Paribus: Home defense AR- 5.56 or x39?

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Rounds designed to penetrate sure will! They'll sail through a deer or a human like a hot knife through butter. They'll not yaw, they'll not expand, they'll keep on truckin'. The Hague Convention forbids expanding ammunition. Military ammunition is supposed to wound, not destroy enemy soldiers.
 
JShirley said:
Not quite what it says. It forbids "dum-dum" ammunition
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"Dum Dum Arsenal"

https://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Dum_Dum_Arsenal

"Dum Dum Arsenal (or Dum-Dum Arsenal) was a British colonial arsenal located near the town of Dum Dum in modern West Bengal, India. The arsenal is famously known for being at the center of the cartridge grease controversy in the events leading up to the Indian Rebellion of 1857. The creation of the 'Dum Dum Bullet', the world's first expanding bullet, also took place in the arsenal."
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Old Hobo said:
"Dum Dum Arsenal"

https://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Dum_Dum_Arsenal

"Dum Dum Arsenal (or Dum-Dum Arsenal) was a British colonial arsenal located near the town of Dum Dum in modern West Bengal, India. The arsenal is famously known for being at the center of the cartridge grease controversy in the events leading up to the Indian Rebellion of 1857. The creation of the 'Dum Dum Bullet', the world's first expanding bullet, also took place in the arsenal."
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The bullet was banned, not because of the Tallow used as grease, but that higher speed expanding bullets created devastating wounds. The Hague convention voted to ban expanding bullets for military use due to the much greater and hard to treat wounds expanding bullets created.
 
I have AR pistols in both calibers, with 10.5" barrels. El-cheapo BCA side-charging uppers for both (they are range toys, so I didn't want to spend a ton). Both shoot quite well and pretty soft, and seem to run with anything I feed them.
Either would do in a pinch.

x39:
  • you will need C Products Duramags for reliable magazine feeds. I wouldn't take a chance with anything else.
  • you will need an enhanced firing pin to get reliable primer strike of steel-cased (cheaper) ammo
  • given the design, you will need spare parts. I sheared an extractor early on with a carbine in that caliber, luckily for me the standard 556 extractor fits and runs steel just fine without any noticing. The "correct" extractor is thin at the tip, and prone to breaking.
  • I just bought another firing pin, as the BCA extended tip broke. I've not had problems with the pin from RedX arms, so it might be "store" quality issue. Nonetheless, those are 2 small-parts failures, something to be mindful of.
  • Given that x39 steel is running 35 cents a rd, and you can currently get brass 223 (Igman, from Sportsman's Paradise) same price, or steel 223 for 28 cents (same place), the benefits of cheaper x39 is no longer a big draw. If you have a stash, that's one thing. If you are buying now, it isn't cheaper.
My cheapo 556 pistol:
  • it's been running any and all ammo I have, be it IMI or Wolf Gold brass, steel Tula or Red Army Standard, or steel Silver Bear.
  • Runs any mags I try, including $7 Pmags, $7 steel milspec from Global Ordnance, or similarly priced steel 10rd Cetme L mags (I did replace the follower so it locks back).
  • Any and all replacement parts are available, although I haven't needed any yet.
 
d2wing said:
The bullet was banned, not because of the Tallow used as grease, but that higher speed expanding bullets created devastating wounds. The Hague convention voted to ban expanding bullets for military use due to the much greater and hard to treat wounds expanding bullets created.
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Yep. No joke.
 
History aside, the military doesn’t seem to mind “Open Tip Match” bullets for the soldiers who actually do the shooting.

In my home, since I’m king there, I forbade agreeance with The Hague (That was political theater then, I wonder what history will say of the baloney we are subjected to now? But I digress also...), or any other such ridiculousness. I have only actual science, and the will to live, to base my ammunition choices on.
The trouble is the source giving the “information”. Like the videos above, not just one source is going to have all the information, and some even twist it to their preconceptions.
What is necessary is an intimate knowledge of the specific situation. What the ammunition is capable of, what the rifle will do with it, what the structure it will be used in is made of. There is only one human that can answer that for each of us…

EUGENE STONER! Duh!
5.56 all the way!
What did you think I was going say? Something fuzzy about about looking into yourself? Gah, don’t make me puke. You don’t know, Uncle Sugar does! Never the Russian!
Now drop and give me 25 while saying the Pledge of Allegiance! One for each caliber of Perfect, And THREE MORE BECAUSE ITS SUNDAY!:mad:
 
Demi-human said:
History aside, the military doesn’t seem to mind “Open Tip Match” bullets for the soldiers who actually do the shooting.

In my home, since I’m king there, I forbade agreeance with The Hague (That was political theater then, I wonder what history will say of the baloney we are subjected to now? But I digress also...), or any other such ridiculousness.
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There is something curious that we signed on to the Hague to ban "dum dum" bullets yet we're one of the very few civilized nations that won't agree to banning cluster munitions and land mines.

At any rate, the question gets more interesting! Out of the blue a PWS Mk116 Mod 2 in .300 Blackout just fell into my lap!:eek::D This has been a grail gun for me for ages! PWS stopped making the .300 Blackout rifles and uppers in 16" a few years ago, now just offering 9.75" and shorter. But I just found a NOS one at a dealer on Gunbroker. I won it but haven't taken delivery yet. Now I have a month or two to decide if I'll still buy the x39 when it comes out. I'm leaning towards yes since I have paid a deposit and already bought mags. Not sure I need both Blackout and x39 but it would offer more ammo options.

Again, I don't have either gun nor upper yet, but for HD it seems like it will probably come down to .300 Blackout vs 5.56 NATO. The x39 of course has an edge of Blackout in raw power/KE/MV but there are so many more ammo choices in commercial loadings for the Blackout, especially HD/hunting loads. Also no concern over different bore sizes/bullet diameters, no concern about corrosive primers, etc.
 
In light of current discoveries, I shall amend my previous advice.

“One is good. Three is more gooder.”

:D


Really though, I’d sell the x39 as a package when I got it. For the price I bought it at, or more if I could swing it. (It comes with fancy mags…;))

But that’s me. You like the x39, it’s a harder choice.

Frank Sinatra time!
“Anything 39 does, Blackout does better. Blackout does better, everything but fast.”:)

And that’s when 5.56 takes the cake!:cool:
 
Yeah, PWS only makes one batch per year of x39 IIRC, probably could resell it. We'll see! Once it shows up I might be reluctant to part with it, I love PWS stuff and the ammo is everywhere.
 
We have 3 AR builds here, for the Wife, daughter, and grand daughter.
They are all in 7.62x35. The 30 caliber will be superior to the 22 cal every time.
Saw it overseas in the 70s, own no 22 cal because of what I saw.
Only change was the barrels.
 
In my opinion the correct answer is a 9" 300 BLK pistol or SBR, suppressed, 30 round magazines stoked with 110gr/120gr Barnes TacTX's or if concerned with over penetration 110gr VMax's. Even without a suppressor the 300BLK is going to be more kind to the ears in a confined area. At home hallway distances it's hard to beat, especially given the size of the firearm.

I would hate to touch off an unsuppressed 5.56 inside, that is a gnarly pressure round to be contained in a confined area.
 
derek45 said:
which minimum wage sporting goods store clerk told you that porky pie ?
LOL
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Why the condescending attitude? Do you respond to other members of this site with the same assumed position of superiority?

A dead soldier need not be tended-to. A wounded soldier is out of action, plus if his comrades come to his aid, then they too have temporarily turned into non-combatants. A screaming comrade is not exactly great for morale, either. Dead people are often given to silence.

This is an old and well-known military reality.
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Old Hobo said:
Why the condescending attitude? Do you respond to other members of this site with the same assumed position of superiority?

A dead soldier need not be tended-to. A wounded soldier is out of action, plus if his comrades come to his aid, then they too have temporarily turned into non-combatants. A screaming comrade is not exactly great for morale, either. Dead people are often given to silence.

This is an old and well-known military reality.
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It's an old and well told military myth. Much along the lines that you cant shoot people with a 50 so you "aim for their equipment" or that a close miss with a 50 will still wound you.
 
C-grunt said:
It's an old and well told military myth. Much along the lines that you cant shoot people with a 50 so you "aim for their equipment" or that a close miss with a 50 will still wound you.
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One shoots to kill. However, if you have only wounded an enemy, then his mates may just come to his aid. Now more enemy are NOT returning fire.

One does not attempt to wound, but if you do, it can have its benefits.

FMJ rounds are banned as hunting rounds because they usually wound and the animal runs away to maybe survive or to die slowly. Hunters wish to kill, so they use non-military ammo.

I do not use military FMJs for home defense. Felons do not come to each other's aid. Therefore drop one, drop another, drop another.
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Old Hobo said:
One shoots to kill. However, if you have only wounded an enemy, then his mates may just come to his aid. Now more enemy are NOT returning fire.

One does not attempt to wound, but if you do, it can have its benefits.

FMJ rounds are banned as hunting rounds because they usually wound and the animal runs away to maybe survive or to die slowly. Hunters wish to kill, so they use non-military ammo.

I do not use military FMJs for home defense. Felons do not come to each other's aid. Therefore drop one, drop another, drop another.
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Click to expand...

Relying on a wounded opponent to keep others from fighting is being hopeful at best and overall bad tactics. A wounded soldier is still very dangerous. There's a reason why the term "anchor shots" is a thing.

FMJ and solid rounds are frequently used for hunting, especially with handguns and with dangerous game in rifles/shotguns.

Many felons will indeed come to the aid of their comrades. A large number of shooting and homicide investigations kick off at the hospital where the "victim" has been dropped off in the ER by their partners.
 
I always shot to kill and I am pretty sure the other guys did too. It mystifies me as to how in battle you can shoot to wound on purpose and why would you. A dead enemy is better than a live one every time. It was said to be a tactic of the VC, but I think it was more taking advantage rather than intentional. I doubt any army would make it official policy as it is hard enough to hit an enemy in battle. Something like 20,000 rounds per kill.
No one I know was ever left for bait.
 
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d2wing said:
I always shot to kill and I am pretty sure the other guys did too. It mystifies me as to how in battle you can shoot to wound on purpose and why would you. A dead enemy is better than a live one every time. It was said to be a tactic of the VC, but I think it was more taking advantage rather than intentional. I doubt any army would make it official policy as it is hard enough to hit an enemy in battle. Something like 20,000 rounds per kill.
No one I know was ever left for bait.
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That's not what I was saying.

One shoots to kill, duh!

Swedish military saying goes something like, "If you kill one, you've taken one out of the battle. If you wound one, you've taken three out of the battle."

If the VC ever had the "only kill" plan, that would have been mega-stupid on their part. Western militaries spend time and attention on their wounded -- which is a cost of time and manpower. Maybe not Charlie ... besides many of them were higher than a kite on black tar opium. In Afghanistan, the Soviets abandoned both their dead and wounded. Tells you a lot about their level of esprit de corps.
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