Ceteris Paribus: Home defense AR- 5.56 or x39?

[Old Hobo]

In this video frangible .223 is tested. The frangible projectile went through 2" of wood of a 2"x4", through a paper silhouette, then splattered on a steel plate. The range-master's point was to show that frangible ammo is great for training, rings steel plates, yet will penetrate wood. He states that it is not for home defense. Me, of all the rounds I've seen tested against wood, aluminum, gypsum board, water, ballistic gel, cinder blocks, et. al., the best ammo to use if one is going to use a .223 for home defense is the frangible ammo. Frangible ammo just has to be less penetrating that a chunk of lead -- but that's just my opinion, I've so far not found a video supporting my opinion. Emergency Ward physicians describe shotgun wounds as "rat-hole" wounds because it looks like some rats were trying to chew their way though these patients.

Here are some of the videos I've found that were instructive. Gosh, there are some unimaginably unprofessional videos out there! Billy Joe-Bob, "Look what this will do." It is very frustrating finding intelligent videos.

"Should I use Frangible rifle ammo for home defense?"


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In the following video at 4 minutes, Hornady TAP, tactical application police round, is used. It goes through all five walls. Buckshot went through five walls. The 9mm hollow point went through five walls. Only birdshot was stopped, yet it still went through one wall and into a second wall -- this load was fired out of a 12 ga shotgun. The first wall stood no chance, because a load of birdshot starts off as a fist-full of lead. The second wall got "thumped" and fell over. The third wall was not penetrated at all.

"Handgun vs AR 15 vs Shotgun For Home Defense..."



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Here is a video testing the 7.62x39 vs. interior walls. One bullet type used was a plastic core round. All five plastic-core bullets blew right through the 4" width of the 2" x 4" wall stud. Drywall was no challenge.

"Testing 7.62x39 For Home Defense"



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[Demi-human]

Let us all keep in mind, the vast majority of shots fired are not hits. To anyone.

Most non-hits don’t hit innocent bystanders, and most actual hits with home defense ammunition do not pass through.
Are we more worried about the strict number of dry wall barriers, or living to secure our loved ones?

Choosing defensive ammunition based upon what might not actually happen is not a good modus operandi.

If we are all mad good as we say we are, we want non penetrating, highly damaging, very reliable ammunition. Not full metal jackets, even though those would be the best in a given situation, because history.
Decades and decades of history.
So, bucking that, I chose something everso less than devastating, unless one was shot with it. Then I would suppose one couldn’t tell the difference.

Good morning, I am Demi-human, I do not choose air-soft. Because I prefer breathing.

 

[Beck]

I apologize ahead of time...

By the way, thanks for apologizing in your first sentence. Most people don't apologize before, during or after. They just stick to their guns. (No pun intended)

On a serious note, I always avoided Tula 7.62x39 like the plague, until we had an actual plague... or rather a viral pandemic. Now I have quite a bit, but only because a friend gave it to me.

I wouldn't put it through my Mini-30 on a regular basis. I don't think an AR would like it much either. It's bottom of the barrel stuff... very dirty, and if it has any flash suppressant in the powder, it doesn't work very well. You'll go blind with the first shot if someone breaks into your house at night. It's ok for the range, but clean your weapon after each range trip.

Speaking of first shots, the most effective way to avoid over penetrating walls and potentially hitting friendlies is to not miss the perp who is shooting at you. If you miss it doesn't really matter what cartridge your weapon is chambered in. Practice, practice, practice!

 

[Bcwitt]

556. That 762 bullet can ricochet very badly in close. Even in something like wood or drywall. 556 will not go very far after it penetrates someting, as it has very low mass. That 762 can go sideways pretty far w considerable energy due to its mass.

 

[Bcwitt]

5.56 does not penetrate cinderblock like 7.62X39 so for urban defense and not wanting errant bullets killing bystanders I chose 5.56.

I have done that experiment, & believe it or not, the 556 did considerably more damage to a cinder block then the 762 did.

 

[d2wing]

Beside the point but I wouldn't use a rifle in my house. I consider a handgun handier for inside. But that's just in my situation.

 

[marksman13]

I’m going 5.56 and it’s not close. I’ve shot a bunch of pigs with 5.56 and the x39’s ballistic twin, the 300 BLK. The 5.56 is more impressive. Humans and pigs are a lot alike anatomically, so give me the 5.56 in a defensive situation. The 5.56 also has the advantages of lower recoil and better quality ammo.

 

[Old Hobo]

My dad was the gambler. Not me.

.223 vs .308 vs cinder block (.308 at 3 min 40 seconds into video) ........ with a watermelon behind the cinder-block


.
.
.If one must shoot through cinder blocks, metal, building floors, ... there is not even a passing comparison between the 5.56 and the 7.62 NATO. The 7.62 x 51 shoots through building materials. So too will the .303 Brit and the 7.62x54R Russian. Bullets of .22 caliber simply do not retain sufficient energy.
.

 

[Demi-human]

If one must shoot through cinder blocks, metal, building floors, ... there is not even a passing comparison between the 5.56 and the 7.62 NATO. The 7.62 x 51 shoots through building materials. So too will the .303 Brit and the 7.62x54R Russian. Bullets of .22 caliber simply do not retain sufficient energy.

I contend that 30 caliber rifle bullets do not shed enough energy upon barrier penetration.
As much, if one is shooting through concrete walls and metal floors, one is not following the rule of knowing one’s target and what is behind it.

How many times has some one needed to cut through their own chimney with a rifle to defend their home?

I live in Michigan, not Beirut or Ukraine. While it might be nice to have professional immunity, like a police officer or marine, it’s going to be difficult to live with killing a neighbor’s kid after already offing a perp, with the same bullet.

 

[Bfh_auto]

In this video frangible .223 is tested. The frangible projectile went through 2" of wood of a 2"x4", through a paper silhouette, then splattered on a steel plate. The range-master's point was to show that frangible ammo is great for training, rings steel plates, yet will penetrate wood. He states that it is not for home defense. Me, of all the rounds I've seen tested against wood, aluminum, gypsum board, water, ballistic gel, cinder blocks, et. al., the best ammo to use if one is going to use a .223 for home defense is the frangible ammo. Frangible ammo just has to be less penetrating that a chunk of lead -- but that's just my opinion, I've so far not found a video supporting my opinion. Emergency Ward physicians describe shotgun wounds as "rat-hole" wounds because it looks like some rats were trying to chew their way though these patients.

Here are some of the videos I've found that were instructive. Gosh, there are some unimaginably unprofessional videos out there! Billy Joe-Bob, "Look what this will do." It is very frustrating finding intelligent videos.

"Should I use Frangible rifle ammo for home defense?"


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In the following video at 4 minutes, Hornady TAP, tactical application police round, is used. It goes through all five walls. Buckshot went through five walls. The 9mm hollow point went through five walls. Only birdshot was stopped, yet it still went through one wall and into a second wall -- this load was fired out of a 12 ga shotgun. The first wall stood no chance, because a load of birdshot starts off as a fist-full of lead. The second wall got "thumped" and fell over. The third wall was not penetrated at all.

"Handgun vs AR 15 vs Shotgun For Home Defense..."



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Here is a video testing the 7.62x39 vs. interior walls. One bullet type used was a plastic core round. All five plastic-core bullets blew right through the 4" width of the 2" x 4" wall stud. Drywall was no challenge.

"Testing 7.62x39 For Home Defense"



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You describe the need for 20 ga turkey loads to a T. I run them in a PA459 with the plug removed. My boys bedroom is in line with mine. There is a large walk in closet between their room and the corridor you walk down. I still don't want to use a rifle in my house. I have too many good neighbors.

 

[uuolf]

I've been loading the 5.56 and Russian 7.62x39 for over 30 years... 5.56 for most of the reasons already mentioned... I've had both... Handloaded both... Dispatched critters with both... Tested materials with both... 5.56 hands down

 

[Beck]

I’m going 5.56 and it’s not close. I’ve shot a bunch of pigs with 5.56 and the x39’s ballistic twin, the 300 BLK. The 5.56 is more impressive. Humans and pigs are a lot alike anatomically, so give me the 5.56 in a defensive situation. The 5.56 also has the advantages of lower recoil and better quality ammo.

Oh Lordy! We gotta stop this misconception in it's tracks. If it's even possible to stop bad info on web, which maybe it isn't... but we need to try in this case.

300 AAC Blackout is not even close to being a ballistic equivalent to 7.62x39. Nothing personal, I'm sure you're a fine person. You didn't start this rumor about 300 BLK being equivalent to x39, but you've obviously heard it.

Bill Wilson's 300 HAM'R is a ballistic equivalent to x39. And in some cases x39 does a little better than 300 Ham'r with heavier projectiles. To be fair, x39 isn't often factory loaded to it's potential in the US. Some factory loads are downright anemic and it's a shame.

300 BLK doesn't have the case capacity of x39. They can both use the same powders; for example, Hodgdon CFE BLK. x39 can use more of it. With the same powder and same or similar projectile, x39 wins the velocity race by as much as 300+ fps. That's a lot of feet per second difference for these medium range cartridges.

 

[Beck]

Beside the point but I wouldn't use a rifle in my house. I consider a handgun handier for inside. But that's just in my situation.

That is a good point. I don't use a rifle as my first line of defense in the home either, and I have a big house with plenty of elbow room property wise.. The two firearms at my bedside are a Taurus 357 Magnum revolver and an 18" barrel Remington 870. A lot of folks like ARs for everything. They work for a lot of things, but responding to a bump in the night might not be one of them depending on a person's environment.

 

[Gtscotty]

5.56

 

[ECVMatt]

5.56 for me. I am old enough to remember when Colt introduced a Sporter model in 7.62x39 and all the troubles that came with it. It was a great 5 or maybe 10 shot rifle but after that it choked. We have come a long way since then, but AR pattern rifles were made to shoot 5.56, 5.56 works as intended, and availability is less impacted by political winds of change.

I really do like the 7.62x39 but not in a traditional AR type rifle.

Having said all that, if you like the round and have a rifle that runs, then you should be good to go. I think more emphasis should be placed on accuracy than ballistics past a certain point.

Keep us posted once your upper arrives.

 

[marksman13]

Oh Lordy! We gotta stop this misconception in it's tracks. If it's even possible to stop bad info on web, which maybe it isn't... but we need to try in this case.

300 AAC Blackout is not even close to being a ballistic equivalent to 7.62x39. Nothing personal, I'm sure you're a fine person. You didn't start this rumor about 300 BLK being equivalent to x39, but you've obviously heard it.

Bill Wilson's 300 HAM'R is a ballistic equivalent to x39. And in some cases x39 does a little better than 300 Ham'r with heavier projectiles. To be fair, x39 isn't often factory loaded to it's potential in the US. Some factory loads are downright anemic and it's a shame.

300 BLK doesn't have the case capacity of x39. They can both use the same powders; for example, Hodgdon CFE BLK. x39 can use more of it. With the same powder and same or similar projectile, x39 wins the velocity race by as much as 300+ fps. That's a lot of feet per second difference for these medium range cartridges.

I can get a Nosler load for the 300 BLK that’s pushing a 125 grain bullet at 2250 fps. I can get a Nosler load for the X39 that’s pushing a 123 grain bullet at 2350. That’s close enough for me to call them ballistic twins in my book and move on. You can call them whatever you like. I don’t care for either round and would choose a 5.56 or better yet a 6.8 SPC over either of them.

 

[Goosey]

The thread is about home defense and I can't think of any good reason to choose a 7.62x39 over a 5.56.

 

[Old Hobo]

You describe the need for 20 ga turkey loads to a T. I run them in a PA459 with the plug removed. My boys bedroom is in line with mine. There is a large walk in closet between their room and the corridor you walk down. I still don't want to use a rifle in my house. I have too many good neighbors.

Hundreds of years ago, I was at a gunshow in North Carolina I believe. Overheard a deputy sheriff advising a novice shooter that for home defense, a 20 ga. was quite sufficient.

The 20 ga is .60 caliber-ish. It will fire a one ounce load of lead (approx 437 gr) at the speed of sound. That comes out to an energy level of circa 1,200 ft/lb of energy. At home distances, that load of shot has hardly spread at all, if any at all -- it is a lump of lead. This sort of energy transferred into a human being will cause absolutely catastrophic injury and/or death. You really wouldn't want to look at that wound, much less attempt to treat that person in the Emergency Ward.

There are exceptions to every rule. Back a LONG time ago in NY, NY, a drug dealer -- higher than a kite himself -- took-on multiple cops in an apartment. He was hit with two loads of buckshot and a .38 round cracked his pelvis. He then ran past the cops out into the hallway. One of the cops turned and shot him in the back with a third load of buckshot. He hit the hall wall, slid down and said, "Don't shoot me no more, man!. Don't shoot me no more." Upon entry to the Emergency Ward, he was pronounced dead. Sometimes humans go super-human / crazy-large-animal. What to do about that?! Gosh, I don't know. This is why cops often try to clear buildings before making drug raids. Who knows where all the lead is going to go.

Can't recommend an RPG or Ma Deuce.
.

 

[edwardware]

. . . one in 5.56 NATO and the other in 7.62x39 which would you prefer to rely on for home defense?

Against humans? At home defense ranges? How big are the people where you live?

5.56NATO (or commercial equivalent) and further I'd choose a ~40gr varmint bullet to limit overpenetration in walls. I can't think of any reason the 7.62x39 would be an advantage against humans at close range. . . unless your humans are grizzly size.

 

[mavracer]

At home distances, that load of shot has hardly spread at all, if any at all -- it is a lump of lead.

It doesn't work like that, small shot doesn't penetrate like a solid chunk.

 

[Old Hobo]

It doesn't work like that, small shot doesn't penetrate like a solid chunk.

At 2 minutes 30 seconds into the following video, a pork shoulder behind pork ribs behind blue-jean material is shot with birdshot out of a 12 gauge shotgun. The shot size used first is #8 birdshot. The distance is ten feet away from the meat target. Gel is tested near the end of the video. For me, all I need to see is if ribs are shattered and meat destroyed -- that's the real test.



Damage to pork ribs, a 2" diameter hole is achieved with ribs shattered; note that blue-jean fabric is blown into the chest cavity:



The pork shoulder was also completely penetrated with little or no shot left in the meat. A nasty hole was left.




The shoulder is then opened to inspect damage to the pork shoulder. Behind the pork shoulder was a interior sheet-rock wall; its first layer was penetrated, however the shot didn't blow a hole through the second sheet of drywall.




After the #8 birdshot test. A turkey load of #4 birdshot was then tested. This load obliterated the section of ribs -- the ribs were shredded. Please watch the video, what this turkey load did is scary impressive. Even the shotcup went through the ribs and shoulder. With the #4 shot, the interior was WAS breached. Again the ribs were destroyed then five or so inches of shoulder had a tunnel blown through which one could stick their fist.

After the meat tests, then ballistic gel was used. The #8 shot penetrated both layers of an interior wall then went 5" into ballistic gell (the ballistic gel block was blown off the table ... messy). The #4 birdshot penetrated the wall then went 7" into ballistic gel.

For me, I needed to see if ribs and a bunch of meat got destroyed. The #8 birdshot did this and the #4 birdshot was well past devastating. The fabric covering meant nothing -- it might as well have been tissue paper.

I was pleased to see that for the smaller birdshot after it blew a massive hole through a bunch of meat and bone, it did not totally breach an interior wall. The load of lead dumped ALMOST ALL of its energy into the bones and meat, thus killing its momentum past the thick meat target.
.


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[Old Hobo]

I contend that 30 caliber rifle bullets do not shed enough energy upon barrier penetration.
As much, if one is shooting through concrete walls and metal floors, one is not following the rule of knowing one’s target and what is behind it.

How many times has some one needed to cut through their own chimney with a rifle to defend their home?

I live in Michigan, not Beirut or Ukraine. While it might be nice to have professional immunity, like a police officer or marine, it’s going to be difficult to live with killing a neighbor’s kid after already offing a perp, with the same bullet.

The .30 cal is FAR too penetrative for home defense now before the economy crashes. When the SHTF, we will be in strange days (the dollar is dying). In L.A. 1993, rioters were held back by Korean merchants who didn't want their businesses looted then burned. These merchants had to engage vehicles carrying 4 or 5 looters per vehicle. In the immediate here and now, we do not need this; however, the exceedingly sad truth is that when it hits the fan, we may very well have to shoot through walls or exterior doors to engage thieves and arsonists. Car-loads of monsters will need to be engaged. Rifle accuracy and massive penetration will have to be brought to bear. I sooooo wish that this were not true, but things are going sideways here in America.

 

[Beck]

I can get a Nosler load for the 300 BLK that’s pushing a 125 grain bullet at 2250 fps. I can get a Nosler load for the X39 that’s pushing a 123 grain bullet at 2350. That’s close enough for me to call them ballistic twins in my book and move on. You can call them whatever you like. I don’t care for either round and would choose a 5.56 or better yet a 6.8 SPC over either of them.

Those two velocities you referenced are catalogue specs. The 2350 fps is the standard oft quoted SAAMI on-paper figure you don't necessarily see in the field. It's a guideline spec from SAAMI. C.I.P. doesn't even have a velocity spec. Only A pressure spec, which is higher and correct compared to SAAMI.

Do you own or have access to a chronograph to measure velocity? My 125gr x39 loads move along at 2500 fps. I have a few 7.62x39 compadres who push it a little harder than that. I use two different chronographs to measure actual velocity. Each is a reality check for the other.

6.8 SPC/SPC II is a great round, but not any better or worse in the home defense environment we're talking about. 300 BLK can be loaded to border on a fast pistol cartridge velocity. Lots of options.

I don't call 7.62x39 and 300 BLK what I like. I call them what they are.

 

[marksman13]

Those two velocities you referenced are catalogue specs. The 2350 fps is the standard oft quoted SAAMI on-paper figure you don't necessarily see in the field. It's a guideline spec from SAAMI. C.I.P. doesn't even have a velocity spec. Only A pressure spec, which is higher and correct compared to SAAMI.

Do you own or have access to a chronograph to measure velocity? My 125gr x39 loads move along at 2500 fps. I have a few 7.62x39 compadres who push it a little harder than that. I use two different chronographs to measure actual velocity. Each is a reality check for the other.

6.8 SPC/SPC II is a great round, but not any better or worse in the home defense environment we're talking about. 300 BLK can be loaded to border on a fast pistol cartridge velocity. Lots of options.

I don't call 7.62x39 and 300 BLK what I like. I call them what they are.

Call em what you like. I’ll call em the same and I don’t like either of them. The world’s big enough for us to disagree without falling apart.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Beck, I'm not sure if you understand this but the vast majority of the ammo used by civilians is factory ammo. I don't doubt what you're chrono'ing out of your handloads but it's irrelevant to anyone else. I used to handload many years ago but I really can't anymore for a variety of reasons. Whether you like SAAMI spec is irrelevant- for nearly everyone in the USA if we can't get it from the factory it doesn't exist for us no matter how well it works for you. How your x39 handloads stack up vs factory Blackout or HAM'R stuff just doesn't enter into anyone's buying decision if they aren't going to roll their own.