Ceteris Paribus: Home defense AR- 5.56 or x39?

[Beck]

Call em what you like. I’ll call em the same and I don’t like either of them. The world’s big enough for us to disagree without falling apart.

Exactly right. We can disagree and nothing will fall apart. We can also talk about why we disagree, and exchange information that can benefit both of us. Another option would be to close all these forums because there's nothing to talk about if everyone thinks they already know all there is to know.

As for me I have no problem revising my opinion based on new information... when it comes along.

 

[marksman13]

Exactly right. We can disagree and nothing will fall apart. We can also talk about why we disagree, and exchange information that can benefit both of us. Another option would be to close all these forums because there's nothing to talk about if everyone thinks they already know all there is to know.

As for me I have no problem revising my opinion based on new information... when it comes along.

I’ve shot enough pigs/seen enough pigs shot with both the x39 and 300 BLK to know that owning one is a good enough reason not to own the other. You don’t like the term “ballistic twin”? Fine, call them ballistically similar. Either way, I’d take a 5.56 over either of them in a home defense situation, but I’m not picking up a rifle as my first option anyway.

 

[Beck]

Beck, I'm not sure if you understand this but the vast majority of the ammo used by civilians is factory ammo. I don't doubt what you're chrono'ing out of your handloads but it's irrelevant to anyone else. I used to handload many years ago but I really can't anymore for a variety of reasons. Whether you like SAAMI spec is irrelevant- for nearly everyone in the USA if we can't get it from the factory it doesn't exist for us no matter how well it works for you. How your x39 handloads stack up vs factory Blackout or HAM'R stuff just doesn't enter into anyone's buying decision if they aren't going to roll their own.

Some good points you made there, all of which I already knew. You say factory loads. Which factories? If I want to maximize 7.62x39 for distance with factory loads I'm not going to buy American. If a person wants to be informed about any given cartridge it does matter that their knowledge is broad and deep. I often see neither broad nor deep in posts on the web. Have you seen facebook lately? OMG we shouldn't want to be like them. This is "The High Road." Perhaps I'm trying to make it too high? I crack myself up. People on gun forums don't kid around enough.

But anyway, when it comes to x39 it makes all the difference in the world that you know the difference between SAAMI and C.I.P. And buy accordingly. You don't have to handload to get better performance. But for nearly every cartridge in the world you have to handload to maximize performance.

I didn't always handload, but I do now, and I know very few people in my close circle of gun enthusiast friends who don't. So cartridge potential is not something that doesn't matter to anyone else. It doesn't matter to you and plenty of other people, but you and them are not everyone. Think about it.

There are a lot of things posted in this thread that were unexpected. To the bright active mind those are nice surprises not painful experiences. And threads meander... that's what they do. The moment threads stop meandering I quit. I'd be bored to death.

You started out so well. You apologized right off the bat for a thread that you knew could go oh so terribly wrong. That was beautiful! Don't blow it now! I'll be so disappointed.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Certainly you have to understand that even if you're a peach of a guy with many friends, handloaders like you and your buddies are a very small minority of shooters. The 300 HAM'R will be much better if you can handload for it, as will the x39 and pretty much any cartridge. Probably you can get your mind around the idea that factory ammo is the main source for most shooters. And while I'm not a lawyer there are many lawyers here; the consensus seems to be that you want to use factor ammo for defense for legal reasons. So even if you have a super-duper, double-secret recipe for x39 ammo that blows everything away it might not be a great idea to shoot a home invader with it.

As for "where", I live in the USA so only the ammo I can get in the USA interests me. Presumably the same applies to any gun owner wherever they happen to be.

I didn't always shoot just factory ammo but I do now. So there's no value to me in unobtainable ammo that I have no access to. That's something I hope you are able to understand but maybe you can't.

 

[WestKentucky]

For defensive, my thoughts go to the bump in the night gun. I have kids in the house so I want a 1 room round. It would be frangible ammo for sure and truthfully neither round really fits that bill. 9mm would be my choice if it were an option, 10mm would be great also, but to stick solely to the 5.56 vs x39 fight I would lean heavily into the 5.56 since a variety of ammo is plentiful and I feel certain I could find something that would be 1 room lethal. I would probably then get frustrated with trying to actually find THAT ammo whichever it may be that I would decide upon and start loading my own. I seriously dislike loading .224 bullets unless they are boat tails because my hand cramps. 30 cal has some pretty interesting options for roll-your-own ammo so I would probably land back in the x39 pile shooting something cast out of powderpuff loads and wishing I had a reliable m1 carbine.

 

[Demi-human]

When the SHTF, we will be in strange days

I hope not. Many, my daughter included, have about a month to live when the pharmacies shut down. And that seems pretty far off of Home Defense by then.
Besides, China already flipped that switch, it’s biological warfare now…

I do like shotguns. A lot.

This one stands next to my bed on some nights.
This has eleven chances to get it right, without the balance changing as she empties.

But that wasn’t an option in the OP.

So, to stray back that way, identical ballistic twins or smaller, quieter and some might say better looking, fraternal twin-ship aside, when I built this Blackout my shooting solution was different.

I could use penetration with impunity. While the wounding isn’t as spectacular on swine I have no doubts about it ability on bipeds.

In this home, I have to use a different solution. Since I can personally testify to a Hornady 50grain SPSX not penetrating the opposite side of a cardboard target holding box, yet still blowing an eight to ten inch mammal to vapor, I use that. (Literally vapor, out of my long barrel bolt action they only cross the 30 yard mark before they vaporize themselves with adiabatic heating.)

I’m just glad we have a choice, for now.

 

[mavracer]

Which factories? If I want to maximize 7.62x39 for distance with factory loads I'm not going to buy American.

The problem with that is to gain your fps you're basically giving up bullet construction. And especially since this thread is about home defense I'd much prefer a bullet suited for the task than even 500 fps with a bullet that's too heavily constructed.
And for the record will you pick a lane
Either
Blackout <X39<30/30
Or Blackout = X39= 30/30
Cause the game you're playing to say
Blackout< X39 = 30/30 are just that games.

 

[FL-NC]

223, cause I have had such good luck with it in the anti-personnel role in the past.

 

[C-grunt]

I choose 5.56 for two main reasons in this instance.

1. Lower recoil
2. I havent personally seen a fully reliable x39 AR rifle.

Ive heard the newer rifles are far more reliable than in prior years, but I still havent seen one run yet.

Both will work fine in the terminal ballistics department and any advantage one might have over the other is more academic and very unlikely to determine the outcome of the fight. Ive seen enough people shot with both, they work at home defense ranges.

 

[wbm]

Ceteris Paribus: Home defense AR- 5.56 or x39?

Yes.

 

[Rexster]

.223/5.56, because a 55-grain JSP is a well-known quantity, in the US LE community, for performance against felons. Over-penetration, through human targets, and building materials, is not excessive.

I have no ego invested in either cartridge, for this task, as my personal choice is another type of long gun. I do not claim to be any kind of expert, but was, once upon a time, a designated “carbine unit,” while working for a major PD, I had to buy my own ammo, and it had to be a conventional .223 55-grain JSP. Our SWAT team not only handled local incidents, but trained many other departments and agencies in the region, so, had plenty of real-world feed-back.

 

[illinoisburt]

2. I havent personally seen a fully reliable x39 AR rifle.

Ive heard the newer rifles are far more reliable than in prior years, but I still havent seen one run yet

Personally not a fan of the 'home defense rifle' concept for most people. Way too loud indoors (especially the short AR pistols). I think people would be much better served with a PCC with heavy for caliber subs (ie 147gr 9mm). Regardless though whatever make y'all feel safe and happy -- more power to ya.

The AR 47 (for lack of a better term) usually suffer from magazine issues, and occasionally firing pins. An inexpensive enhanced pin from RedXArms and Duramag-C's pretty much fixes them to run trouble free.

 

[d2wing]

Some good points you made there, all of which I already knew. You say factory loads. Which factories? If I want to maximize 7.62x39 for distance with factory loads I'm not going to buy American. If a person wants to be informed about any given cartridge it does matter that their knowledge is broad and deep. I often see neither broad nor deep in posts on the web. Have you seen facebook lately? OMG we shouldn't want to be like them. This is "The High Road." Perhaps I'm trying to make it too high? I crack myself up. People on gun forums don't kid around enough.

But anyway, when it comes to x39 it makes all the difference in the world that you know the difference between SAAMI and C.I.P. And buy accordingly. You don't have to handload to get better performance. But for nearly every cartridge in the world you have to handload to maximize performance.

I didn't always handload, but I do now, and I know very few people in my close circle of gun enthusiast friends who don't. So cartridge potential is not something that doesn't matter to anyone else. It doesn't matter to you and plenty of other people, but you and them are not everyone. Think about it.

There are a lot of things posted in this thread that were unexpected. To the bright active mind those are nice surprises not painful experiences. And threads meander... that's what they do. The moment threads stop meandering I quit. I'd be bored to death.

You started out so well. You apologized right off the bat for a thread that you knew could go oh so terribly wrong. That was beautiful! Don't blow it now! I'll be so disappointed.

I don't think you are very High Road. People here are allowed not to be in a cult. Very few people are interested in hot handloads for the 7.62x39, so many other better choices are available. The whole point of the 7,62x39 is cheap imported ammo.

 

[C-grunt]

Personally not a fan of the 'home defense rifle' concept for most people. Way too loud indoors (especially the short AR pistols). I think people would be much better served with a PCC with heavy for caliber subs (ie 147gr 9mm). Regardless though whatever make y'all feel safe and happy -- more power to ya.

The AR 47 (for lack of a better term) usually suffer from magazine issues, and occasionally firing pins. An inexpensive enhanced pin from RedXArms and Duramag-C's pretty much fixes them to run trouble free.

I'm not worried too much about the noise. While I'm a big fan of subguns/PCCs, if I'm going to run a shoulder fired weapon it's going to be a rifle cartridge.

 

[Ironicaintit]

I don't think you are very High Road. People here are allowed not to be in a cult. Very few people are interested in hot handloads for the 7.62x39, so many other better choices are available. The whole point of the 7,62x39 is cheap imported ammo.

And maybe some people like the 7.62x39 and do hand load it, such as myself.
Beck is a bit assertive and forward with his points maybe, but not, "not high road" IMO.

I'm kinda dumbfounded how the 5.56 vs x39 camps tear into each other.

y'all ever heard full throttle 5.56/223 indoors? It is stupefyingly brutal.

 

[DustyGmt]

5.56 because that's what I chose

 

[Phaedrus/69]

2. I havent personally seen a fully reliable x39 AR rifle.

I can say for sure and for certain that I wouldn't rely on any gun for HD that I hadn't vetted pretty thoroughly. My Bren and my Mk114 both have enough rounds through them that I trust 'em to work. When I get the new upper I'll put a lot of rounds downrange before I'll consider staging it for defense. That said, I will have the advantage of getting pointers from a buddy that's built a lot of x39 ARs. I've fired several of them and he asserts they're as reliable as his 5.56 ARs. There are certain things that trip up x39 ARs but for the most part they're not mysteries, at least according to his experience. If you have good mags (you better have a good reason if you're not running Duramags), an appropriate firing pin & M4 feed ramps. Certainly his x39 ARs have had a stellar track record. Lastly, at the risk of coming across as pedantic, I suppose if I'm being really accurate the PWS guns aren't ARs although they share most of the same parts.

In any event when the upper finally shows up I'll thoroughly wring it out before I even consider relying on it.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

Caliber wars have always been stupid, a clash of ego's really. And just how this thread devolved into a 5.56 or 7.62x39 and became a 300 BO, 6.8 SPC, 308 Winchester, 9x19, 10mm Auto, 20 gauge, and 12 gauge also thread is beyond any explicable approach.

I previously answered 5.56, BTDT like some others here and faced off against 7.63x39. Both will kill, but one is easier to find, easy to load for, easy to support more, and much easier to shoot with a ton of different munition types to choose from.

Will wait until 6.5 Jesus-Grendel, 6.5 God-Moor, and 6mm ARC gets mentioned too because then we'll be having a real party. But even then all three and anything else besides the OP's two choices, is still pointless because it still doesn't answer the OP. And I really don't care why anyone is being more supportive of the other cartridge's that aren't in the OP.

 

[DustyGmt]

I can say for sure and for certain that I wouldn't rely on any gun for HD that I hadn't vetted pretty thoroughly. My Bren and my Mk114 both have enough rounds through them that I trust 'em to work. When I get the new upper I'll put a lot of rounds downrange before I'll consider staging it for defense. That said, I will have the advantage of getting pointers from a buddy that's built a lot of x39 ARs. I've fired several of them and he asserts they're as reliable as his 5.56 ARs. There are certain things that trip up x39 ARs but for the most part they're not mysteries, at least according to his experience. If you have good mags (you better have a good reason if you're not running Duramags), an appropriate firing pin & M4 feed ramps. Certainly his x39 ARs have had a stellar track record. Lastly, at the risk of coming across as pedantic, I suppose if I'm being really accurate the PWS guns aren't ARs although they share most of the same parts.

In any event when the upper finally shows up I'll thoroughly wring it out before I even consider relying on it.

Really only of peripheral relevance, but there is a guy up near me who runs a business, Green Mountain Carbine, who deals and works explicitly with x39 AR's. Think he might even be a manufacturer. I've been told he knows everything about x39 AR's and how to make em dead reliable, etc...

Doesn't seem like it should take all that much, but it does seem a lil strange that whenever I hear the topic of a x39 AR, the topic and question of their reliability always follows. That would not turn me off if I was really motivated to have a x39 and had some special affinity for the cartridge or had a stockpile of x39 ammo. Anybody hit with either one is going to probably wish they'd just stayed home.

If a friend of mine was asking me which one and was new to guns, I would strongly urge him to go with the 5.56 for all the reasons everybody has already said about reliability, commonality, availability, lethality, etc... but you sound like you know what you're getting into and are going to buy quality components, etc...

 

[mavracer]

There are certain things that trip up x39 ARs but for the most part they're not mysteries, at least according to his experience.

Yes no mystery, the X39 case has too much taper to stack in a straight magazine required for the AR15s mag well. So everything mag, follower, spring, feed ramp and bolt speed have a smaller margin for error.
I'm not interested in that for SD.

 

[wesmonster]

I have ARs in 7.62x39 in 16" and 10", with CPD Duramags or D&H mags they're both 100% reliable.
Bolt breakage is an issue, just as it is with 5.56.
As for ballistics, either round is sufficient with an established battlefield track record.
But for SHTF my AR go to is a 14.5" lightweight middy (super soft shooter, uber light, with a pinned flash hider to 16") and an 8" .300bo pistol. Light rifle, light ammo, with good hi viz irons and a co-witnessed red dot.

If I were using 7.62x39 for HD I'd skip the 123 gr fmj/ semisoft/ semi hollow points that 90% of it comes in for a good expanding bullet, and they're available off the shelf.

 

[mavracer]

a good expanding bullet, and they're available off the shelf.

Are they?
I've been looking for a buddy to find something to feed his American Ranch for hunting and there's not much "on the shelf" right now.

 

[JShirley]

For indoor HD shots?
7.62x39, loaded heavy (180gr+), keep it subsonic, and understand your homes lanes of fire.

but that's just me, apparently

Yes. Because that sounds like quite a penetrator, which is what you don't want.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Yes. Because that sounds like quite a penetrator, which is what you don't want.

Well in my case, I don't have any neighbors to worry about.

 

[Bcwitt]

My dad was the gambler. Not me.

.223 vs .308 vs cinder block (.308 at 3 min 40 seconds into video) ........ with a watermelon behind the cinder-block


.
.
.If one must shoot through cinder blocks, metal, building floors, ... there is not even a passing comparison between the 5.56 and the 7.62 NATO. The 7.62 x 51 shoots through building materials. So too will the .303 Brit and the 7.62x54R Russian. Bullets of .22 caliber simply do not retain sufficient energy.
.

Note how the tester did not specify which loading or barrel length used in testing. A green tip 556 in a 20" barrel will perforate all three ribs lengthwise. I have done it. I fired a 762x39 fmj (16" ak) into a block on end, another fired a green tip (20" AR) same way. My 123gr fmj hit the center rib & did considerable damage to it. The 556 blew thru 2 ribs & did considerable damage to the third. Was very impressive.