Are ATF often 'plainclothes' at gun shows?

[Trent]

This!! IMO you always have to conduct business as if you are dealing with a LEO at all times.

PRECISELY.

I actually had a uniformed IL State Police trooper sitting at my kitchen table once (after waiting the waiting period), buying some AR receivers I had left over from when I had my FFL.

He got a little irritated when I asked him to sign a paper stating he was the actual buyer and not a prohibited person. "The law doesn't require THAT."

"Yeah, but *I* do, and I don't care if you are God himself, you sign the paper or you don't get the receivers."

I was actually happy to sell the receivers to the police - At least I know they won't end up in the hands of a gangbanger.

Between having the FFL, doing gun shows, and making what few private sales I've done from my personal collection, I'm sure at SOME point I sold a gun to an undercover cop (one in particular stuck out where a guy was really insistent on picking up his gun the next afternoon - "I've waited a day", but a full 24 hours hadn't elapsed yet. I made him wait around until the clock read the right time, per IL law.)

I always assumed each sale is to an undercover cop, so I don't cut any corners. Kept me on my toes making sure the paperwork / etc was correct.

 

[SunnySlopes]

both parties are to exchange ID info and the gun's SN. If caught not doing so, you could both lose $ & gun. I don't know if that pertained to Ohio, or in the U.S.

That's not a requirement here in Oklahoma. For private party transactions all that's necessary is a buyer, seller, and whatever is going to be bought or traded.

As far as the ATF at gunshows, the only ploy I've heard them use is to find a private party who is trying to sell a firearm, then offer to buy. The twist is that the ATF agent informs the seller that he, the buyer, is from out of state. "Is that a problem?" If the seller sells the gun, then they arrest him.

 

[HankB]

I was actually happy to sell the receivers to the police - At least I know they won't end up in the hands of a gangbanger.

It's so cute to come across someone whose innocence hasn't been lost yet . . .

 

[Trent]

It's so cute to come across someone whose innocence hasn't been lost yet . . .

Oh it's not lost. Nor is my irony.

 

[JoePfeiffer]

The concern isn't with their presence, or even if they're watching for illegal behavior -- I have no problem with that. What concerns me is stories I've heard (yes, I know this is anecdotal) that sound like attempts at entrapment.

 

[Agsalaska]

The original poster noted that it was a shotgun that he had just purchased. In this case it would not be about individual sales, but dealing without a license.

One of the ploys that ATF uses is to find someone that has just purchased a firearm and offer to buy it at an inflated price. Then when the person sells the ATF agent the firearm they charge him with dealing in firearms without a license, since he just bought and then resold the firearm.

It's obvious entrapment but most people don't have the money to fight a felony charge in Federal court, so they wind up having to plead guilty. So an innocent sounding offer to buy your gun could turn into a felony charge if it's the wrong person asking.

Thats dirty

 

[savanahsdad]

The concern isn't with their presence, or even if they're watching for illegal behavior -- I have no problem with that. What concerns me is stories I've heard (yes, I know this is anecdotal) that sound like attempts at entrapment.

yep.. like the guy trying to sell a shot gun at a show up here a few years back , he just looked to "clean cut" shiny shoes and all , he had a brake action 12ga with a 17 3/4 " barrel on it ! almost legal , a guy shut him down when he gave him his asking price for the stock and action ,then he handed the barrel and cash at the same time , and told the nice young man "you may want to get rid of that , I don't think it is legal "

 

[Krozi]

At the last gunshow I went to the ATF actually had a booth, handing out useless pamphlets showing us how they are making us safe LOL. Needless to say they got nothing but bad looks...I guess the fan base for the ATF is lacking a bit.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Someone correct me if I'm ill-informed, as I have never sold to somebody I don't know. A guy I work with is a gun collector. He said in a private gun transaction, both parties are to exchange ID info and the gun's SN. If caught not doing so, you could both lose $ & gun. I don't know if that pertained to Ohio, or in the U.S.

Maybe it's just me but something that could affect my freedom I'd look the law up and read it for my self

 

[savanahsdad]

I wish they would set up a booth at our shows , I got a long list of stupid laws I would like them to explain to me , like why can't I put a stock on a hand gun ? , why do I need to pay for a background check ?, why do I need a check when I have a CCW card ?, why 18" barrel and not 15" barrels ?? , then we could talk about Fast and Ferrous !! lol...

 

[newfalguy101]

The original poster noted that it was a shotgun that he had just purchased. In this case it would not be about individual sales, but dealing without a license.

One of the ploys that ATF uses is to find someone that has just purchased a firearm and offer to buy it at an inflated price. Then when the person sells the ATF agent the firearm they charge him with dealing in firearms without a license, since he just bought and then resold the firearm.

It's obvious entrapment but most people don't have the money to fight a felony charge in Federal court, so they wind up having to plead guilty. So an innocent sounding offer to buy your gun could turn into a felony charge if it's the wrong person asking.

Well except for the pesky fact that it is most certainly NOT illegal, nor "selling without a license" for an individual to buy and immediately resell a firearm.

Selling without a license would require the act of buying and selling to be done REPETATIVELY and with intent of earning a living at it.

 

[Ignition Override]

km101: I've attended at least twenty gun shows, and only since early '08. None of my very seasoned, (all) middle-aged friends at these shows has mentioned that such entrapment exists. Maybe they did so when some of us were out of town-If they have heard about it. Nor had any of the other sellers or visitors.

The idea had never dawned on me that any ATF agent could offer to buy a gun which you just bought, and define that as 'dealing', whether legal or not.

Maybe these basic traps should be posted in Large Print at the entrance to each gun show, although at the risk of giving a few people 'cold feet' about buying or selling(?).

newfalguy: even if ultimately none of that entrapment were to hold up in court, have people been forced to hire
an attorney-billing a person for dozens of hours- with the personal stress over weeks of waiting for a hearing/trial, which would be a nightmare as bad as any classic Twilight Zone episode?

 

[breakingcontact]

Not around here. Plenty of people selling oil filter suppressors at the last one i went to.

? I know there is a legal oil can suppressor. I think the part that screws onto the gun is registered.

 

[Eb1]

I have done one FTF, and the buyer and I filled out paperwork on with our IDs and Addresses.
I didn't want to sell him an AR15 without a transfer of information that had the serial number of the gun. Just in case.
I didn't have to, and I asked if he was cool with that. He agreed. No, big deal. I have it filed away. In case I ever get a call. I needed the money real bad.

I'll do a face to face with a buddy if I know them without paperwork. I know where to find them.

 

[ChaoSS]

Well except for the pesky fact that it is most certainly NOT illegal, nor "selling without a license" for an individual to buy and immediately resell a firearm.

Selling without a license would require the act of buying and selling to be done REPETATIVELY and with intent of earning a living at it.

If you purchase a gun with the intent to resell it, that is dealing without a license. If you buy a gun, and immediately resell it, the ATF is willing to bet that they can convince you that they can convince a jury that you purchased it with the intent to resell it. They arrest you, get you to plead guilty for a lesser sentence, and there's one more bust under their belt.

? I know there is a legal oil can suppressor. I think the part that screws onto the gun is registered.

Well, they weren't just selling oil filters, that's for sure.



Around here there seems to be a little less drama. California, you can't sell FTF, dealer sales require 10 day wait period, so I wouldn't want to buy or sell a gun at a gun show any way. Accessories, parts kits to complete a receiver, an 80 percent paperweight, ammo, so on, that's all good to buy at a gun show, if the price is right, but no guns. Just not worth the drama.

 

[lobo9er]

Well except for the pesky fact that it is most certainly NOT illegal

in NY it is illegal they have changed the laws that makes it illegal for private sales at gun shows a while back now with the safe act all private sales are illegal with out a back ground check.

 

[Old Dog]

Now you guys are making me think that the guy selling jerky is an undercover ATF dude ... the jerky is just not that tasty ... Or could it be the knife-sharpening guy -- I gave him 5 bucks and my Buck 110 just didn't get that sharp.

I'm pretty sure the two guys in the black suits with white shirts, skinny black ties and dark rimless sunglasses can't be working for the government ... Could it be the guy at the table with the Gen 2 Glock 17 marked $600?

Seriously, though ... at our shows up here, we all wear our badges with our names on 'em ... Hopefully, if the ATF guys have a table, they've got some good deals (I'm still looking for a clean 6-inch Model 27 to complete my collection and a spare mag for a Beretta 1934).

 

[ChaoSS]

PRECISELY.

I actually had a uniformed IL State Police trooper sitting at my kitchen table once (after waiting the waiting period), buying some AR receivers I had left over from when I had my FFL.

He got a little irritated when I asked him to sign a paper stating he was the actual buyer and not a prohibited person. "The law doesn't require THAT."

"Yeah, but *I* do, and I don't care if you are God himself, you sign the paper or you don't get the receivers."

What, you mean a paper like a form 4473? Seems to me that the law does indeed require that, if, as it seems, you were selling as a dealer.

 

[guyfromohio]

"One of the ploys that ATF uses is to find someone that has just purchased a firearm and offer to buy it at an inflated price. Then when the person sells the ATF agent the firearm they charge him with dealing in firearms without a license, since he just bought and then resold the firearm."

Sounds like urban legend to me.

 

[Cee Zee]

They show up at flea markets around my home area. I had one offer to sell me a crate of SKS's for $110 each once. I gave him the, "Wow, what a good price. Can I buy ONE rifle," routine and I never saw him again. But people had already warned me they were there that day. But they are there pretty much every time. There are sellers who always have several guns for sale and the ATF checks them out every time. They get asked a bunch of questions and as long as the sellers give the right answers that's the end of it. I have heard of people getting arrested there though.

What they did to me was clearly entrapment. Don't think for a minute that they play by the rules.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Now you guys are making me think that the guy selling jerky is an undercover ATF dude ... the jerky is just not that tasty ... Or could it be the knife-sharpening guy -- I gave him 5 bucks and my Buck 110 just didn't get that sharp.

I'm pretty sure the two guys in the black suits with white shirts, skinny black ties and dark rimless sunglasses can't be working for the government ... Could it be the guy at the table with the Gen 2 Glock 17 marked $600?

Seriously, though ... at our shows up here, we all wear our badges with our names on 'em ... Hopefully, if the ATF guys have a table, they've got some good deals (I'm still looking for a clean 6-inch Model 27 to complete my collection and a spare mag for a Beretta 1934).

It's the Sham WW guy

 

[Gunnerboy]

Gunnerboy: Were the private sellers required to first ask the buyers about any previous felonies, or otherwise check on their backgrounds?

Or did the ATF have the buyers lure actual retail FFL sellers out into the parking lot in order to skip the form and checks with the NCIS? If that event happened in Minnesota, it would not really surprise me too much.

The "buyers" would walk up to a dealer or private table and ask to meet outside in the parking lot where no paperwork would be had, at my local gunshows even private sellls have a slip stating your not a convicted felon with a name and driverslicense number and weapon info.

 

[22-rimfire]

From my point of view, the sting type operation would work very well on people who knowingly purchase a handgun from an out of state private seller. It would be tough to say "no" to a really nice collector gun. This kind of sale happens a good bit at shows where there are a number of nearby states and hence attendees that attend. But the thing is, these are not the people that the government would likely place assets at a show to find them.

 

[Owen]

They show up at flea markets around my home area. I had one offer to sell me a crate of SKS's for $110 each once.

When I got my FFL I was specifically told that selling at flea markets was forbidden. An FFL can sell from his place of business, or a gun show, period. SO it makes sense they would be hassling folks at flea markets particularly if they are selling a number of guns, giving the appearance of being gun dealers.

 

[Trent]

What, you mean a paper like a form 4473? Seems to me that the law does indeed require that, if, as it seems, you were selling as a dealer.

This was over a year after the gun shop closed; I waited the 12 months prescribed by the ATF before selling any inventory that went "to personal" at the end of the FFL. (The lady I spoke with at the ATF licensing center said "it would be a good idea if you waited 12 months after closing so there's no doubt that you aren't operating as a business anymore").