Unarmed Training

[bradvanhorn]

Kimbo held his own considering he GASSED OUT.
His ground work was pretty good considering that he had NO prior experience on the ground...he never needed it before, he was a mean arse street fighter.

I don't want to get too far into thread drift, but this is not accurate. Kimbo held his own only because his opponent failed to capitalize on his opportunities, and Kimbos ground work was non-existant. He was repeatedly taken down by weak take down attempts, and he made no effort to put his opponent in guard or otherwise put himself in a position of advantage once he was on his back. Only an inept opponent saved him. The guy had side control virtually the whole time and he could've passed to a full mount at almost any time because Kimbo just laid there doing nothing, but he failed to do so. If he had gone to full mount the fight would've ended there.

Nonetheless, my point was not to suggest street fighting and cage fighting offer the best basis for comparison of technique. My point is a fight can, and often will, go to the ground, and if you don't have any idea what to do, then you could be in very serious trouble. If your opponent is equally inept on the ground, then the danger is lessened, but personally I'd rather be prepared than hope for an inept opponent. If nothing else you can get the guy off you and get away...

 

[JShirley]

Nick,

This is John. I've invested thousands of hours in traditional Japanese martial arts. Let me give you some thoughts.

You're not ready. If you were ready, you wouldn't need to ask us.

The conversation has really drifted, but what works in what is, despite more lenient rules, still a sport setting may be very different than in the real world. Think in terms of:

weapons
multiple attackers
legal consequences

BJJ, especially combined with good striking skills, rules MMA fighting, but that's not real life. If you can't evade/reasonably deescalate, and have to engage, you ALWAYS want to hit an attacker with something other than your body. Sticks, stones, chairs, lights, cars, you name it. If you can't get away, and can't not fight, hit 'em with something other than you- and never expect to fight just one attacker.

If you have the option, train in something other than TKD. I've seen a few good TKD stylists, but in general, not so much. Whether you want to go "eclectic" and train in two or more arts, or find one art that encompasses a wide range of training, it will greatly help you if you find an art that teaches you how to hit the ground without injury. I've been saved serious injury on multiple occasions because of this, and my exwife even was hit by a car without being hurt.

"Keep going." Don't get discouraged. Life and training are both processes. Find encouragement instead in the fact that others have been where you are and have learned what they can share. Also, think carefully about what people tell you. Accept nothing unless you think it through and find it to stand up to examination and that it works for you.

Take care,

John

 

[Byron Quick]

A member who was skilled in the art on THR, once made the claim that BJJ was the "best, one on one, unarmed martial art in the world."

I replied,"That may well be so. It leaves you with two very big problems, though. Fighting me alone and fighting me unarmed."

I don't think fighting is-or should be-a duel. I'm not going to be fair or honorable about it.

It will be as unfair as I can possibly arrange.

 

[psyopspec]

To drive home what the mods just said, a good fighter once told me, "If you're in a fight, and you ain't fighting dirty, you ain't fighting."

I don't mean to imply that what I've learned is the end-all in hand-to-hand. I'm even skeptical about army combatives, as I don't ever intend to find myself without a weapon - either one I'm carrying or an impromptu one I've discovered in the environment I find myself in. In the end, strength matters, intelligence matters, and technique matters. The will to live also matters a lot. Luck will also play a role. My answer to your original question is this: Do your best to learn what you can and as you go on try to separate the good from the bad, but never stop learning.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

A wise man told me that the fight should be over before your bad guy even knows that the fight has begun.
Sad to say that there are not many martial arts that prepare you for this.

 

[rrruuunnn]

One of my TKD instructors is a vietnam veteran with 5th degree TKD. i think that i learned more and most importantly by talking to both outside of class. in class, everyone got the fast food form of TKD. i feel like i was working on the artistic version in class. on a rare day we would nibble on hapkido, kuk sool won, falling down properly, defense against grabs at the wrist and collar and from behind, gun defense which a student came back to thank because he took a gun from someone. there is a chart in the classroom showing every stiking point painted on plywood. but no one seems to be interested in it. these classes will introduce you a type of fighting. but you have to help yourself if you want to learn self defense. both of my instructors are very good. but it would take years of training that some are just not mentally willing to devote. who would think that someone would turn out like chuck norris who trained TKD or Kathy Long. it mainly doesn't happen that way. for the average Joe who doesn't want to spend his/her life training, high spin kicks don't work.

 

[buck00]

My question is should I start a martial art (like karate or something), or am I good to go if get into a fight with someone (like a mugger attacks me or something). Im trying to be prepared.

You are never good enough- you always need to not only keep training and working out, but increase your world experiences and social skills. As Sun Tzu said- most battles are won or lost prior to the first punch- with your brain.

You can be the toughest guy in the world in terms of MMA/karate, etc, but if you lack street smarts you can lose (either physically or legally). Honestly, there always is a tougher, quicker, or meaner opponent out there- the hard part is you don't know what night you're going to run into him. So as others have suggested- far better it is to be aware, read the situation, and avoid a fight if possible.


One wise bit of advice: the guy that brags "I've never lost a fight" has never been in a real street fight.

 

[Professor Gun]

For background, I have a 2nd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do karate and have also dabbled in Hapkido and Kenpo karate.

I think the most important tool for unarmed combat is the mindset that you are willing to use violence to defend yourself or your family. Many people have not thought about that and when the time comes they will pause or wait before responding to a violent encounter and by then you are in trouble. I know black belts in the martial arts who (1) have not thought this out, and (2) do not train in sparring at all. I predict that if they encounter violence they will be in deep trouble. A good instructor and a good dojo will help you reach this mindset.

The next most important tool is physical conditioning. You would be amazed how exhausting it is to actually fight another human. Combine intense endurance training (like running) with weight training.

Next is to find a good martial arts instructor and studio where you can train. From my experience I think Hapkido and Kenpo are excellent styles for self defense, though I am sure there are several others per the posts on this thread.

 

[RONSTAR]

I walked away thinking, "Wow. That's IT?! If I go to war with that stuff I will DIE!"

thats becuase its basic training they only teach you the basics you should know that if you were in the army 98% of my military training was after basic duh

 

[CWL]

I think that any martial art is as good as the next to get some foundation. Only after you have studied one art for a while, then you should start looking at other martial arts/MMA to start broadening your skills.

Few people have the time or resources to study multiple MAs, especially as a youth, and trying to jump around at the beginning of MA study will only mix you up.

After you know what you are doing with one, you will be able to add & subtract from that foundation/basis. Keep what you know works and get rid of things that you don't like or is obviously useless in the real world. It is OK to dump techniques you aren't good at in order to excel at ones you are a natural with.

Once you get to a high-enough level of MA skills/practice, you will notice that most of them blend together anyways.

 

[DFW1911]

Nick,

A couple of quick points. I studied Aiki-Jitsu for years and our system of advancement is called MMA today: you had to get into "realish" fights. I know some will say they're not real fights, but I can assure you getting hit in the face with a 4 ounce glove or eating about 10 elbows really hurts...for a "fake" fight.

However, since our art emphasizes the destruction of an opponent, it's impossible to go all out: think about eye attacks, throat attacks and hand ripping. In short, find a school that will allow you to really mix it up if for no other reason to help you mentally.

While others are saying differently, the fights I've been in as an adult were quickly resolved with good old fashioned judo throws, aiki-throws and some chokes. Remember that throwing someone onto a table or concrete floor is quite a bit different than a landing in a dojo.

I'd suggest that many of the Japanese "soft" arts - especially in the Aiki family, are tailor made for weapons retention: the person reaching for your weapon is playing right into your technique.

As a trainer I'd categorize fighters into two camps: those who underestimate their opponents and those who overestimate their opponents. If you watch a number of street fights - the Web is great of this - you see good fighters and bad, all of whom you should learn from.

Lastly, there is a direct corollary between martial arts and firearms training: you get out of it what you put into it. If you're a target shooter are you prepared for real-life combat scenarios? If you're a TKD guy who point fights are you ready for real-life combat scenarios?

Just my $.02 - hope it helps.

Take care and have fun...and don't be afraid of getting punched in training!

DFW1911

 

[Girodin]

In sparring and boxing you are not learning how to avoid blows, counter strike, etc

Actually that is exactly what you are learning when you spar. Avoiding blows and counter striking is basicaly the name of the gam when it comes to boxing. I have nearly a decade of experience in training for fighting (Muay Thai and BJJ) more than that if you include wrestling.

next most important tool is physical conditioning. You would be amazed how exhausting it is to actually fight another human.

The following are the things I thin have a lot of practical apllication to fighting:

Brazilian jiu jitsu (BJJ)
Muay Thai
Boxing
Judo
Wrestling

Most other martial arts have very little practical apllication for a real fight and are light years behind the above IMO

Boxing Muay Thai and Wrestling all are great because they are hard. You either get tough and in shape or you quit. You regularly go fairly hard in training and sparring meaing you learn not to freak out if you eat a big shot you really learn how to fight not just theories about fighting.

I would make the choice of which I to train based largely on what the schools were like in my area. That is to say I would prefer to be at a good boxing gym to a so so BJJ gym or a great Judo club over a crapy muay thai gym or visa versa.

Ideally you need skills from each. Money and time can limit the ability to train in various arts. Some MMA skills are really lacking in one deparment or another some have great instructos in all of them.

I could write pages about fighting but I wont bore you. Depending on where you are in the country I may be able to reccomend some good schools.

I would avoid TKD, kung fu, karate dojos like the plauge if your goal is to learn real fighting. If you would like me to espound on the reason for that I can.

I am the guy in the left in the below picture.

This video is of my thai boxing trainer and friend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnvRFCLwgkQ

 

[Girodin]

I think that any martial art is as good as the next to get some foundation.

I strongly disagree. Some are inheriently better than others. This is some thing the martial arts community in America learned big time in the 80s and 90s. American karate fighter got smashed by thai boxers. BJJ and early vale tudo and NHB events revolutionized marital arts.

Once you get to a high-enough level of MA skills/practice, you will notice that most of them blend together anyways.

Not really IMO. I can elaberate if you would like.

 

[sandanbob]

Hi, Nick.

I have been involved in martial arts since 1990, and hold several black belts. One of those is in aikido, and I would agree that this is a good art for close-in attacks, and learning how to fall without getting hurt is an added benefit. The techniques are based on circles, so techniques can be gentle, or less gentle, based on your needs.

I have done non-contact "traditional" martial arts, and feel that they can help against an untrained adversary, but are not ideal.

I have studied full contact (American kickboxing, as opposed to Muay Thai) and getting the feel of being hit (and learning to avoid being hit) is important. Having a punch to the nose, or a kick to the stomach, will teach you to keep on through the discomfort.

From what I have read, Krav Maga is more combat oriented, and will make a good basis for self defense.

If you have very little time, another area to look into is a WWII combatives type course. These don't have 8-10 stances, various blocks that leave you open, and high kicks that can leave you unbalanced.

I have done very little MMA training, but I would say that if you have the opportunity, it would be a good thing to look into.

The boxing background you have is good for the movement and distancing. If you are unable to get more advanced training, continue to improve on what you know, using your friend, punching bag, focus mitts, any other training item.

It has been mentioned the importance of physical conditioning, as well. I have heard folks say that faced with trouble, they would run away. However, some of them would be unable to do a 50 yard dash without collapsing, so that removes that option.

If you can get any weapons training, and can learn to improvise, that would be a plus.

And, finally let me say that your most important weapon you have is your brain. Many posters have mentioned avoiding situations where you might need to fight- this is key. Beyond that, being prepared (which you are exploring) to deal with it will be key- from the 'verbal judo', to physical interaction.

Best wishes.

 

[CWL]

Not really IMO. I can elaberate if you would like.

That's not necessary. I have black belts in 2 of the 5 MAs you listed as well as another one in Hapkido. The certificates all make for great wall-hangings but by themselves are useless for the real world. I have gone on to study additional forms of MA including weapons and MMA over the past 25+ years. -I did have to start with one though (Judo).

The important thing is to get started. Way too many people get into the "which is best" question, which can actually harm a beginner's interest in and devotion to MA studies. I still think it is better to start with any and build a foundation of knowledge from which you can then begin to compare & then add/subtract from. This is better than jumping schools every 3 months and only getting confused by different philosophies of teaching.

As for Muay Thai, I learned the effectiveness of elbows when I had my forehead split open by a practitioner in Thailand.

 

[Mike OTDP]

I've only been studying Okinawan Karate & Kobudo (Shorin-ryu Matsamura Orthodox) since 1985, so my opinions are rather limited.

However, I would argue that the style is not nearly as crucial as the instructor. There are only so many ways to inflict damage, and only so many unarmed weapons to do it with. Which means that all styles are teaching the same material, just with a different emphasis.

Now, back to the OP. Yes, you should start training in a martial art. You are NEVER fully trained. My own sensei, a legitimate 7th dan with over 40 years of experience, is STILL learning. It's like shooting...until you can shoot a clean 600 reliably in Free Pistol, you need practice - and the World Record is considerably short of that.

Picking a school is tricky. Personally, I tend to advocate traditional styles. Okinawan styles tend to be very pragmatic...and frequently teach weapons as well as empty-hand technique. Which can come in handy. Look for a dojo that does not emphasize tournament sparring. And I would look at the belt rank structure - the more colors, the worse. A traditional style will have only two or three colors to make black belt.

I hate to have to say it, but the best instructors are frequently men who do not teach martial arts for a living...they teach it for the pleasure of teaching and from a sense of obligation. Above all, if a sensei cannot give his martial arts lineage (who taught him, and who taught his teachers), I'd look elsewhere.

Best of luck.

 

[md7]

hello nick,

i have absolutely zero training in any type of karate, mma, or boxing. but, i know what it is like to get in a scrap.

#1 avoid em if you can. fighting just to fight or to show how tough you are is junk. walk away from it.

#2 if it cannot be avoided, (as in, you are seriously being attacked) i will tell you like my older brother told me. "lower that jaw and make like a windmill."

just for clarification, that doesn't mean you should lifelessly flail your arms in a circular motion. he meant, take the fight to them, and be highly agressive while you're at it.

anyways,
here's to stayin out of trouble and hoping that you never have need of using whatever martial art you decide on learning.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Nick,

The street is a world of its own. If you want to learn to survive on the street, you need to find a streetfighter to learn from IMHO. The name Southnarc has been mentioned at least once on this thread, and I'd again suggest you look him up. You can find his site at http://www.shivworks.com/ .

There's a lot more to learn than how to throw a punch or kick (or a bullet), and learning how to see a bad situation shaping up so you can just not be there is a far better thing than learning how to fight your way out of a situation you might have avoided.

Stay Safe,

lpl/nc

 

[phoglund]

Lots of good advice here. I've studied Combat Hapkido and Taekwondo and hold a second Dan Black Belt in the latter. I have also trained to a lesser degree in Boxing, Krav Maga, BJJ, and some weapons. This is less experience than some here but I'll give my feelings on the subject irregardless.

First, if you choose to train in a dojo, go to the different schools in your area and sit in and watch the classes. Look for an experience knowledgeable instructor that works his/her classes hard. Conditioning is also important in a fight. Ask if only traditional martial arts are taught or if there is a self defense component as well. There is a difference. There is benefit to even traditional martial arts and sparring. It will teach discipline, mental toughness, and condition your body to physical and mental stress. These are all things useful in a fight. If you find a school that looks good, ask to take a free class. If that works out see if you can sign up for a month to evaluate the school. If you are satisfied at that point, don't be afraid to sign up for a year contract if required. Despite what another poster said, a contract is simply good business sense. If you believe the school can fulfill your needs there is no reason not to commit a year at a time. It will also give you incentive as you will be paying whether you go or not...so you are more likely to go. If you have come this far then the rest is up to you. Train at least 3 days a week. Four or more is even better once your conditioning is up to it. Get in to sparring as soon as you can and spar as often as you can. Learn to strike and get struck. Besides the fighting/self defense aspect, martial arts is simply good for the overall development of an individual as a well rounded human being.

Once you get a good foundation you can look into techniques from other disciplines. Add something from all. My personal theory goes something like this: There are three basic unarmed combat scenarios (and combinations thereof), there is the stand up striking fight, the stand up grappling fight, and the ground grappling/striking fight. Most people don't have the time or resources to become proficient in all three types of fight scenarios...therefore I suggest you become highly proficient in a martial art that emphases one of the previously mentioned fighting situations and then learn enough about fighting in the other two possibilities to redirect the fight back to the type of fight you are proficient in. This flows into armed combat as well. Sometimes a gun fight starts with a fight for the gun!

Good luck!

P.S.
Situational awareness and avoiding the fight are always important. Even if you win a fight, expect to get hurt.

P.P.S.
Be aware that street fighting is a lot different than martial arts fighting. To get an idea, take a look at the rule book for MMA fighting. Look in the section that describes what you can not do in a MMA fight. That is the list of the things you should do in a street fight and can expect your opponent to try to do to you!

 

[The_Rambler]

Thanks for all the replies.

Ive been in a few scraps, And that boxing training came in handy, So thats what I will work on. I cant afford anything else.

 

[RONSTAR]

Look into this Pekiti Tirsia Kali. My old Lt. knew about this stuff its pretty bada$$ if you dedicate yourself to it I belive its the same art that guy Jason Bourne uses in the Hollywood hits.

 

[JShirley]

Don't misunderstand- boxing is actually one of the better trainings you can get. All you really need to add to that is the ability to hit the ground without getting hurt and get back up quickly.

thats becuase its basic training they only teach you the basics you should know that if you were in the army 98% of my military training was after basic duh

Well, "duh", with a background in hard training, my exposure to the Army combatives had me saying, "they teach you just enough to get you in trouble". A "combat oriented" martial art is not going to start from the ground, and it should emphasize hitting the enemy with the weapon you're already holding. "Duh". The program was ill-considered, and is merely based on what is winning in UFC- big frigging deal. Virtually anyone I've trained with could have eaten well-practiced Army combatives users' lunch.

The truth is, very effective unarmed martial arts aren't very useful or necessary for service members. The service branches should train with the weapons they'll be using, and those...go...BANG. It would be useful for trainers to reinforce about three moves (lunge, parry, butt strike) with an issue rifle or carbine. That's about it.

John

 

[psyopspec]

JShirley - you've nailed down one of the main criticisms I have of the program. The response from the powers that be is that they want to start with the parts that are easier to train en masse, and may apply to a worst-case scenario (no weapon, no equipment). I still disagree - I'm not tossing away my rifle, pistol, helmet, or even the 3-4 knives I carry when decked out in full battle rattle.

That leads me to my second criticism. Most soldiers only get limited exposure to combatives, and that usually won't include sparring in full gear. The level that introduces using/taking weapons is level 3 out of 4, an echelon most Soldiers (even dedicated combat troops) will never see.

All that said, it is training and I can say I've taken something away from it. The extent of that I'll have to find out by sparring with a few friends dedicated to other disciplines. One observation I have that may possibly play into the favor MACP is that the guys who were best at it tended to have been in a few scrapes on the streets. This speaks volumes for their individual abilities, but taking their knowledge and using it as a paradigm to approach the Army's program helped me get more out of the experience.

 

[JShirley]

I took on a guy about 15 lbs heavier- tall and thin- when we did combatives from standing during ITB. I took him down with a sacrifice throw, and he had my neck locked up about half a second after we hit the ground (turned out he had been a state champion wrestler in Hawaii).

Thing is, though- I let him out of the throw. In the "real deal", you hold them so their neck and shoulder slam into the ground. No point in that for training. So, yeah, groundwork let him triumph that time, but he wouldn't have been able to fight if we had been fighting for real. Combatives training is divorced from reality.

Great, I understand they want to cultivate "fighting spirit". Woohoo. Find a way to do it that's actually useful.

J

 

[Moon]

Re-read Girodin and Sandan's posts again; good advice in each. Pick one of those styles and concentrate on it. But realize that ideally you must be able to: throw a punch, throw a human, execute a takedown, and defend yourself/attack while on the ground. So try to pick up the basics of how to go about being proficient in those areas in addition to whatever you are primarily training.