Argument At Gun Range Today

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model4006

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So im at the range, by myself, sighting my .22lr marlin bolt action in at 100 yards just for something to do. very quiet and peaceful, but a little chilly at 38 degrees. and another fella shows up, shooting black powder, he asks me if he can go put up a target, i say sure, go ahead.

i dont know how it is at your gun ranges, but this one is a private game and fishing club, you have a key to the front gate, come and go as you please, there is no rangemaster i hear you guys talk about or anything, you sign in on a sheet and are expected to use paper targets only, and put them back when youre done, and pick up or recycle any casings.

with no one in charge, i guess its up to the shooters to decide when to stop shooting, and go replace, or check, or move your targets. im very easy to get along with, even if im shooting ill let anyone go put up, or check or do whatever. ok im getting a little off topic.

so the guy is shooting his muzzle loader, no big deal. another guy shows up, with an AR-15, carries his stuff over to his bench, then walks down and asks mr black powder "is that gun loaded?". to which he replies, "there is powder and ball in it, but no primer. so no, its not loaded"

AR man says, "thats a loaded gun, ill just wait till you shoot"

then they get into a pissing match about whether or not the gun is loaded. the guy with the black powder gun says that the "game warden" says if there is no primer, its unloaded and ok to carry in your truck.

AR man says "the game warden doesnt have to walk in front of it, i do"

so the guy turns the gun off to the side of the range, laying it on the bench pointing basically at my car, but not downrange or toward any other people.

not good enough for AR man, who makes him stand it up on the gun rest/rack thingy behind the benches.

i swear they argued for about ten minutes, which was just wasting my time, it was starting to piss me off. i didnt want to keep shooting with these two screaming at each other.

who do you guys think was right? what should i do in this situation when two grown men, with guns and bullets near by start to get into a heated argument. honestly i was thinking about leaving, but i had all my stuff set up and it would have taken me a few minutes and a couple trips to gather everything. which would have just put me closer to them. and i surely didnt want to walk over by them and hear "what do you think, is it loaded or not" which would certainly put me on the bad side of one of them.

the way i look at it, im not going to walk in front of anything i dont want to. AR man (at first) was willing to wait, the black powder dude should have just finished what he was doing, taken the shot, and thats that.

so?
 
It was loaded. Why? Because all guns are loaded always, and even if it didnt have a primer in it there is a billion to one chance(i.e really hot barrel, hammer hitting the nipple and sparking, the gods of blackpowder wanting to scare AR guy) that it could of gone off.

Also gun tip #136

Never argue about while holding, or being near to firearms. Ever...EVER!!
 
even if it didnt have a primer in it there is a billion to one chance

The chances of the muzzlerloader going off without the primer are much better then a billion to one. now and then I hear stories about some kid who was given a old muzzlerloader that was a family heirloom, and going off while he was playing with it. And who knows how long the gun was loaded....

I was raised that a gun is always loaded and you never point a gun at someone unless you intend to shoot him....

-Bill
 
I'd say it was loaded. One time we were shooting at a range like that and I was using a cap and ball revolver but I must not have been using the right sized caps because I had two missfires. Right after that there was a call for going cold and I had to hold every one up while I recapped and fired the last two rounds in the cylinder.
The way I looked at it, safety is paramount and on a range where anything from lit cigarettes, to smoldering wads floating around or smoldering residue could one in a million set off the black powder somehow, I aint taking the chance with someone else's life down range.
 
Am I going to be the first to ask as to why this escalated into an arguement in the first place? Why didn't the black powder guy just put a primer in and shoot the thing? Why didn't the AR guy gently persuade him to shoot? I wouldn't have wanted to go down range at that point though...
 
All guns are ALWAYS loaded Nobody ever accidently shoots themselves or somebody else with a loaded gun. Somehow or another they always manage do it with an unloaded weapon.

The gun should have been placed in a vertical rack BEFORE the range was called cold.
 
The guy with the muzzleloader was there to shoot it I presume? If so why didn't he just shoot his load and let the guy hang a target, thus avoiding the problem. I don't give a darn if the thing didn't have a cap or primer seated, I wouldn't want to walk in front of it.
 
any thoughts on what i should have done

There really isnt much you can do in that situation but what you did and hope you arent about to experience an AR vs blackpowder rifle shootout over stupid childish things.

Remember class: All Guns Are Loaded at All Times Even When You Are Really Sure That They Are Not.
 
Loaded or not loaded, I still don't see how it warranted a 10 minute debate.

AR guy told BP guy he'd wait. BP guy should have taken a shot at the target, set his gun down and said "ok, NOW we agree its not loaded, go set up your targets".

Some people just want to argue about anything :rolleyes:



As for whether I think its loaded or not, if I had centerfire rifle gun sitting on the bench with a round in the chamber, but not cocked and the safety on, it would technically be "safe" but thats not how the range rules work, the range isn't cold until weapons are unloaded and actions locked open.

I'd say you'd be perfectly safe walking downrange with the BP gun in the state described, but it still wouldn't meet the required definition of "unloaded" to call the range cold.
 
An empty gun is unloaded.

Would anyone mind if I pointed it at them?

After all, it's unloaded.



For gosh sake, either shoot it or go lock it in the trunk. What a load of childish poop.
 
Both were trying to be to accomodating in my opinion. As far as the weapon in my understanding of blackpower weapons it was NOT LOADED. no ignition source but should still be treated as a loaded weapon. But it would have solved everything if the black powder guy just primed it and fired his shot.
 
Lessee here...... :scrutiny:

Okay, so I go to the Dillon and crank out half a dozen .357 rounds - but they're not my usual configuration.

Everything's there: bullet, case, powder.

Umm... everything except primers.

I take and put these unprimered rounds in the cylinder of my Python.

Is the gun loaded or unloaded? (and puhleeze don't give me that "all guns are always loaded" bit on this question)

FWIW and not that my opinion means scat, I agree the black powder guy should have just primered and fired the damn thing.

But then the boys wouldn't have had any excuse to get in a pissing match, and what fun would that have been? They were obviously enjoying it or they wouldn't have done it.

:rolleyes:
 
The black powder guy shouldn't have even said anything and just set in one of the racks pointing towards the sky as he eventually ended up doing.

Is it loaded? Who cares. At the range I go to, "all actions open and emptied," still means no spent shell casings still in the chamber.
 
why couldnt black powder guy remove the cylender? or do they not come out easily on his gun? why couldnt he just stick it in the holster on his hip to keep it in a safe direction.

black powder guy was in the wrong as far as not pooping or getting off the pot. shoot that thing and let ar guy set targets.

black powder guy was wrong because his gun was loaded with bullets and powder and expected ar guy to walk in front of it. fudge a bunch o that poo

both were in the wrong cause they were arguing at a range.

we should do whatever we need to to make others feel safe at the range. its a courtesy thing. magazines out, and actions open. if its requested that guns are pointed away from target setting area then do it. dont argue.
 
Technically a black powder rifle, with ball and powder but no cap is not loaded. But like so many others, I don't see why the guy didn't just put a cap on it and take his shot. Some people seem to like arguing more than they like shooting.

"All guns are loaded all the time". It's a great safety rule, but if it's taken as gospel then the range I go to is never safe as guns are left on the benches, unloaded, actions open, pointing down range during a cease fire. Just about everyone going out to put up a target is in the line of fire of at least one of those "always loaded" weapons. None of them have shot anyone in all the years I've been going to that range.

While I suppose it is possible that a black powder rifle with ball and powder but no cap could go off, I suspect your possibility of being hit by lightning or winning the lottery are much, much more likely.
 
All guns are loaded all the time". It's a great safety rule, but if it's taken as gospel then the range I go to is never safe as guns are left on the benches, unloaded, actions open, pointing down range during a cease fire. Just about everyone going out to put up a target is in the line of fire of at least one of those "always loaded" weapons. None of them have shot anyone in all the years I've been going to that range.

Ah but if you're unsure the answer is always "loaded"

Lessee here......

Okay, so I go to the Dillon and crank out half a dozen .357 rounds - but they're not my usual configuration.

Everything's there: bullet, case, powder.

Umm... everything except primers.

I take and put these unprimered rounds in the cylinder of my Python.

Is the gun loaded or unloaded? (and puhleeze don't give me that "all guns are always loaded" bit on this question)

Black powder is a much different story as the rounds you have loaded arent in a hot barrel, couldnt possibly be hit by a hammer or struck resulting in a spark, and (hopefully:D ) arent being used by a person that gets in a 10 min yelling match about the technicalities of guns.

Really a lot of people say " well it aint never happened before" but what if it does happen? What if you hurt or even killed someone because you were arrogent? Why not just air on the side of caution? Guns are not toys nor should they be toyed with.
 
I woulda walked up there and set up my target. A simple aiming it not in my exact direction would have been enough.

And I take it you don't think it was loaded, since it was aimed at your car and you didn't open your mouth? :neener:
 
In this case BP should've just said "no" ... AR guy didn't need to know whether there was powder or a ball, and didn't need to know what game wardens think. He just needed to know whether a little hole maker was a trigger pull away from being ejected. It wasn't, so anything beyond "no" was too much information.

On the broader scale... I sympathize with BP guy... there are a lot of ignorant people who think cartridge rules apply to non-cartridge firearms. An unprimed BP gun is NOT loaded. It it can't just go off, and it may be minutes away from "ready to fire". At the same time it is also not clearable without tools and a bunch of headache, so you can't unload it without firing, and since firing may be minutes away you can end up in situations where you must leave what the ignorant cartridge-only shooters think is a loaded gun on the bench. I've had "experts" at ranges throw hissy fits about "loaded" (but uncapped) cylinders that I removed from the frame of my revolver because the range only called a 3-minute warning before going cold and I didn't think that was enough time to crisco, cap, and fire off all the shots. I did the best and safest thing available in the time allowed and had a moron of a range "officer" shouting at me without having any clue as to what else I should have done. That sort of situation can cause BP shooters to wish to educate the unwashed... which is probably what this guy was trying to do with mr. AR. Sadly, it isn't worth it... ignorant people who don't seek knowledge deserve to keep their ignorance. What I do is pocket uncapped cylinders (ignoring the "don't handle gun parts while range is cold" rules), or in the case of long guns simply answer "no" (even as I'm pulling a ram-rod out of the barrel) and that's what I suggest other BP shooters do as well.
 
Hot/Cold

When I'm at the range and it comes time to do housekeeping, we drop mags and lock actions open.

With single shot, the action is opened, leaving no round in chamber.

Lever guns are empty, lever open.

Rifles are laid down on tables, pointing downrange.

Walk out, manage targets, do scoring, whatever.

No weapon has any ammo. No blanks. Nothing.

Each weapon has been physically verified as unloaded. While Rule #1 is acknowledged, this is that designated time when we have agreed to trust that the weapons are indeed empty, and anyone remaining at the bench has agreed to keep clear of the weapons.

I would have to say that, even though a muzzle-loader might be "deemed safe" by some official, if I felt I had to declare the powder+bullet, I would not, on principle, lay an "almost loaded" BP rifle down, pointed downrange, with personnel in front of the line.

This would abridge the Rule #1 agreement. I would either shoot the rifle or remove it.

If, in truth, the BP rifle is actually BY DEFINITION unloaded with no primer, then it would be a mistake to declare the powder+bullet, as this confuses the issue and makes other personnel uncomfortable. Just say no.

If you have to explain why the rifle isn't "really" loaded, then you should remove the need for the explanation.

Did I miss anything?
 
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