Argument At Gun Range Today

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Rustymaggot...

DO you read before you post?

they DEFINITELY talk about a "black powder RIFLE"

first, they are rarely revolvers, (there ARE a few revolving carbines)

second, I REALLY wanna see the holster you keep "on your hip" that holds a rifle...
 
well i couldnt exaclty see from where i was, it was either pointed at the big dirt wall that lines the range, or the parking lot. i just meant not downrange.

i wasnt about to join the pissing match.
 
The black powder rifle was unloaded. Sorry but that is the truth. He should have just rolled his eyes and let the other guy stay dumb. I would have been afraid of the dummy. Might have made a bet and we could have asked an expert or looked it up. Dummy then could be educated and not dummy anymore. No reason to argue. Or could have just answered dummy like my niece would "roll eyes and say WHATEVER".
 
Loaded or unloaded?

O.K. i'll buy the no ignition source.
But if you have ever shot black powder rifles, you know that just about anything can go wrong with one if you are not careful, especially if your using Real "Black Powder" (F or FF or one of its compliments). So was the gun unloaded? NO, it was loaded. Could it fire? Probably not. Are you going to point it in my direction? :scrutiny:??? :eek: NO WAYNO AMIGO! Black Powder rifles make really big holes. Being shot on purpose or by accident sucks. you don't get old by being a fool!

Some of the guys say its stupid to say all guns should be treated as loaded. They need to look up the definitions for "accidents."
 
I'm going to go ahead and side with AR man......he said he would wait!!! I dont blame the guy.....he didnt know the other guy, or have a reason to trust him.
 
and since firing may be minutes away
Click to expand...

I've never run into a problem where it would "take minutes" to fire a BP to clear the range. It doesn't take any longer to fire than any other single action weapon--where did THAT come from?:confused: You should not be loading if people are heading downrange.

Finish the chamber you're futzing with and fire. Or, place the cylinder open end down on the bench. Or, stand the rifle upright. Or, fire it off.

If it's pointed downrange with something in it, it's loaded. If you imagine otherwise, you're wrong. Snap cap, magnum load, BP...doesn't matter. Don't point it downrange.

AR guy should have just started laying out gear, adjusting, loading mags, setting up scope, and waited for BP guy to figure it out.

If BP guy feels a need to make a point enough that he'll refuse to shoot in a timely fashion or point his weapon in a safe direction, because he WANTS people to walk downrange while he's got a loaded chamber, have him politely escorted off the range and tell him not to come back.

But don't argue over it.
 
IF I were an RO these guys both would have been gone real fast. My opinion is that it is no more loaded than any other firearm with somebodies finger off the trigger. I would have been much more comfortable with the rifle in the rack but frankly if it was on the bench and he is not messing with it then I am actually ok with that too.
 
So doesn't the topic of this thread begin to overlap with
this thread about holstered muzzles sweeping people?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=240642


In that thread we scoffed the "dangers" of a holstered gun being inadvertantly pointed at somebody.
In this thread the sentiment that a loaded gun pointed downrange can be dangerous is coming out.

So is it more dangerous to walk behind me downrange when I'm wearing my shoulder holster,
than the fact that my rifle is on the bench, loaded and pointed downrange at us?
 
plenty o' BP factories and grain facilities for that matter have blown up despite fancy countermeasures. Hindenburg?

more power to anyone who feels it perfectly safe to wander around downrange of lead ball with a charge backing it up, I'm guessing from the no primer statement that it was an in-line type BP rifle that uses a shotgun primer, also I might add that a cocked and locked 1911 is perfectly safe too, when there's nobody around. The problem is people, people like BP guy and AR guy who like to ague for the sake of it. People who futz around with there guns in an unsafe manner, that's why there are rules, to accomadate the lowest common denominator, those professional enough.

in my mind game laws don't trump safe practice, wether it's loaded or not, it's certainly not unloaded, might not be loaded either, partialy loaded? Maybe but semantics don't override safety either and the fact that BP guy chose to say what he did also means that subconsiously he felt the gun wasn't unloaded either. He should have busted his cap and be done with it, AR guy was patient enough to wait.

prior to breechloaders people were pretty quick with getting a muzzleloader ready to fire, it isn't as fast as inserting a mag and pulling the charging handle but it isn't slow either.
 
Both of them were being children and unreasonable. So are half the people in the world when it comes to guns saftey at a range. Reasonable people just lose their minds and turn into VPC-like control drones of some sort.

In this specific situation, honestly, who cares if it was loaded or not? Set the gun down on the bench, call cold, change your targets, and come back. If nobody touches a gun which is resting comfortably on a bench, loaded or not, nothing can happen. Guns just don't go off when you walk in front of them.

I don't expect everyone on the range to unload and open their actions because I want to run out and change a target. The only thing they need to do is step back and wait a couple of minutes, nothing more. Just set the gun down and don't touch it like a responsible adult. There were 3 of you who are members of a private club, how could it be so difficult to do this?

The only time a gun is dangerous, under normal range conditions (I don't want to hear about the freak lightning strike that causes the BP to ignite without a primer), is when it is in someones hand. Otherwise, the gun is just a paperweight. I'm not advocating unsafe gun handling but rather a little logic when there is no handling involved. This isn't a public range with 50 people on it, this is a private club with 3 shooters on the line. The lack of logical compromise caused this argument.
 
I don't think it matters whether it was technically loaded or not. The AR guy did not want to walk in front of the gun. Maybe that's illogical, maybe it's not, but he wasn't asking for something unreasonable: either the muzzle loader guy could take his shot, or he could put his gun on the rack for a few moments whilst he put up his target. The AR guy said he would wait, so that should have ended it. no need to argue semantics.

On a side not: guns are NOT always loaded. Guns are always loaded until they are proved unloaded.
 
i cant believe some of you.

sorry, but if people cant, or are unwilling to unload and clear chambers during a cease fire to set up targets then they are morons.

guns are mechanical, mechanisms fail. in the event of a mechanical failure, would you rather have a live round in chamber pointed at you or a empty chamber and locked slide? which would you rather have fall off a table and land pointed at you?
 
Guns are alway loaded until you verify that it is empty and cannot fire. However common sense dictates in this case at the range with black powder. No primer no way to shoot = verified.
 
Fow what its worth, in Michigan it would have legally been considered unloaded.

From the DNR website:

"A percussion cap muzzleloading longarm is considered unloaded if the percussion cap is removed. A flintlock muzzleloading longarm is considered unloaded if the cock is left down and the pan is open. Black powder handguns must be transported as stated above."

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_37141_37706-31578--,00.html
 
Loaded. Mr AR-15 was right except, I would have made the guy fire off the ball. I'm and RSO at club and this would not fly with any member. NOBODY goes down range with this configuration. We have people step back from the shooting tables and depending on who is there put the rifles in the rack. Safety is not optional equipment. ALL GUNS ARE LOADED and should be TREATED that way. No sweeping muzzles period.
 
Loaded or unloaded, two adults should have been able to work it out without a pi$$ing contest. I got tired just reading about it. Both probably did the same thing with the 'ol lady in the morning and the result produced said range behavior. joe
 
Childish behavior

Just to inject a little humor...
In the words of "Tuco the Rat" my favorite character in Good/bad/ugly

"When its time to shoot, Shoot, don't talk"

and for what its worth, at our range in Virginia, no percussion cap = not fully loaded. So I can have a cylinder on the bench with powder and ball, but I do leave it out of the frame just to allay any fears, but that's my BP revolver.

I just don't understand why these two idiots couldn't resolve the issue like grown-ups and would have had a tough time in your place keeping my mouth shut and not mubling something like "Just touch it off Man but saying to Mr. AR, technically, it ain't loaded, but lets get on with it here. That way your tossing two dogs a bone each.

KKKKFL
 
No primer, action open = unloaded and safe.

Guns don't "just go off". They need a primer, powder and charge. The AR guy was just being a pencil neck jerk. The ML guy shouldn't have to clear, swab and reload to satisfy another's paranoia.
 
Unloaded.

guns are mechanical, mechanisms fail.
Click to expand...

Single action BP pistols with no primer on them do not "fail" and fire on their own.

In addition, iron/steel against iron/steel almost never produces an ignitive spark, and is even less likely when struck head on as would a hammer against a steel nipple. (As opposed to struck at an angle to create a shower of sparks)
 
In addition, iron/steel against iron/steel almost never produces an ignitive spark, and is even less likely when struck head on as would a hammer against a steel nipple.
Click to expand...

But are you willing to bet your life on almost?
I know when my rifle is there, bolt open, bolt flag inserted, it WILL NOT fire, ever.
Not, "almost never" fires.
 
Loaded. Mr AR-15 was right except, I would have made the guy fire off the ball. I'm and RSO at club and this would not fly with any member. NOBODY goes down range with this configuration. We have people step back from the shooting tables and depending on who is there put the rifles in the rack. Safety is not optional equipment. ALL GUNS ARE LOADED and should be TREATED that way. No sweeping muzzles period.
Click to expand...

At our club its loaded, the BP range is next to the rifle range, we have to co-ordinate, target changes. If there is powder and a ball in the gun, folks on the rifle range will wait for the BP guy to fire the gun. There is exactly zero chance a modern firearm with rounds in the chamber and safety on will fire on its own, however we still clear all guns before we go down range.
You dont geta a Mulligan with a bullet, and someone could end up dead, so why take a chance???
 
In Utah, that is considered legally unloaded. However-

Why didn't the black powder guy just put a cap on it and take his shot?
 
issue is etiquette, not definition of loaded

The issue is Range Etiquette, not whether the BP rifle was loaded or unloaded.

If AR guy is uncomfortable with BP guy's rifle being charged but not primed, then he could voice his concern politely, and BP guy could easily accommodate AR guy.

Range Etiquette requires that both be polite, and that both be concerned about the other's safety, whether real or perceived.

After BP guy apologized and agreed to comply with AR guy's polite request, AR guy should have thanked BP guy kindly, and they should have become buddies.
 
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