Argument At Gun Range Today

[Ed Ames]

But are you willing to bet your life on almost?

You do, every second of every day. Get used to it.

or a empty chamber and locked slide

What sort of BP firearm has a slide? Does it have a swing set too?

I've never run into a problem where it would "take minutes" to fire a BP to clear the range. It doesn't take any longer to fire than any other single action weapon--where did THAT come from?

It doesn't take any longer once it is loaded... but just having powder or a bullet in doesn't make it loaded. Assuming this was a single-barrel gun, it may have been as simple as dropping a cap on an exposed nipple and firing or it may have been fiddling with plastic disks and shotshell primers in awkward little spaces. And that's not counting whatever other odd rituals he may have been observing, e.g. only shooting once every 10-15 minutes to keep the barrel reasonably cool. And he may have been experiencing difficulty ramming the bullet all the way, in which case he may well have been planning to do the smart (and legal in most states, including CA) thing which is case up the gun, load it into his car, and take it home to deal with it. If it was a double barrel, one barrel loaded and the other started could mean even more work. If it wasn't a percussion ignition, then you have a whole additional layer of frizzen charging and so forth. With revolvers it is easy to have the cylinder part-way loaded... to fire out three chambers requires criscoing over the bullets, capping, and depending on the gun perhaps reassembling the cylinder in the frame. That can easily take several minutes...but it can also lead to misfires later in the day. If you accidentally smear a little crisco in an open chamber in your haste, and fail to remove every trace of it, it can leave a layer of fat which protects the powder from igniting later. Inconvenient and very dangerous hang-fires result. None of these issues hold beyond a few minutes, but some ranges (not the case in this thread's argument, but a relevant case) give very short warning before going cold.

If BP guy was following a reasonable loading protocol (waiting after the shot, swabbing the bore, etc) the gun was just as safe as all those pistols in the counter of your local gun store, which are also pointed right at you as you walk past.

If there were racks available, I don't know why he didn't use them... I also don't know why he didn't say "no" in the first place. Maybe he was more worried about this amazing spontaneous ignition firing a bullet in the air where it would be, according to media reports, sure to land in some underprivileged youth's back... maybe he was just lonely and enjoyed the human interaction... but, as someone young enough to know that between paramilitary police yokels and every other kind of yokel out there I'm going to have a lot of actually loaded guns pointed at me over the next 40 years, one partially loaded smoke pole sitting on a table just wouldn't bother me.

issue is etiquette

I agree... and while I don't understand many of the actions reported, it sounds like it was two guys reaching a door at the same time and each arguing that the other should go first.

 

[ZeSpectre]

You should have told the bth of them that loaded or unloaded it doesn't matter ALL rifles should be placed in the rack before anybody goes downrange

+1

 

[Dr. Dickie]

What sort of BP firearm has a slide?

I don't shoot BP. I shoot semi-autos, they have bolts, I meant to say bolt back (1911 on the brain). With the bolt back and open bolt indicator in place, a rifle will not fire (not even almost never). For a BP rifle, that becomes in the rack standing up (at least where I shoot).

You do, every second of every day. Get used to it.

Just because I do in other things, does not mean I to when I do not have to.

In the end, they were both being stupid, as an out was given but not taken.

 

[3fgburner]

Take the shot, spring rammer, end of discussion

In VA, the law during hunting season is that the gun is "unloaded" for car carry if (a) on percussion, there's no cap on the nipple, or (b) on non-percussion, the priming pan is empty. On a range, I don't care. Starting from scratch, it takes less than 30 seconds to load a BP gun. If all you have left to do is prime, that's about 3 seconds.

At North-South Skirmish Association shoots, you snap two caps before loading the first round of a relay. At the end of a relay, the command is "Cease fire. (wait a few seconds). Discharge all loaded muskets into the backstop.". Then you snap two more caps on an empty barrel.

In 56 years, nobody has ever gotten shot at an N-SSA event. Far as I'm concerned, I won't go downrange unless (a) someone springs a rammer on an empty barrel, or (b) the gun's in a rack with nobody near it.

[EDIT] The couple times I've gone hunting with a musket, I unloaded it into a hillside before putting it back in the car. As far as I'm concerned, dumping the priming does NOT count as unloading. But then, I shoot matchlocks and medieval hande-gonnes, as well as percussion, wheel, and flint.

 

[R.H. Lee]

I suspect what actually happened is that AR guy had an attitude when he approached BP guy, who got his hackles up. AR people are notoriously snooty. That said, I agree with AR guy; the rifle contained powder and projectile. It was loaded.

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

RH Lee

probably correct, attitude most likely played a role here. However, Standard Operating Procedure around here is no barrel with anything in it pointed downrange when range is COLD. If we pride ourselves on being responsible and safe shooters, and want to uplhold standards for the sake of presenting ourselves to the non shooting world, it's good to have SOP's that are followed if nothing but for the sake of following them. They will save someone.

st

 

[TheDisturbed1]

Childish

from what i see, its all about the old childhood impulse to prove "I'm always right"... AR guy went as far to say that it was loaded, bu then Blackpowder guy went as far to say that he was wrong... Cocky attitude + Cocky attitude = disaster. Its a miracle that nobody tried to disprove the theory on each other.

 

[Deavis]

Its a miracle that nobody tried to disprove the theory on each other

I would hardly call it a miracle. Most rational people will go to extreme lengths to avoid any physical confrontation. People will shout until they are red in the face but actually getting into a physical alteraction normally requires something beyond the normal name calling to cause an everyday Joe to get into a fight. This is why there is no blood running in the streets despite thousands of CHL permit holders getting cut off everyday in traffic, given the bird, or verbally attacked when they have a gun on them.

Normal people don't want to get in a fight and those who do quickly become a guest of the State at one of their fine luxury hotels or they become dead. Those guys may have yelled at each other but the chances of them actually shooting each other, pretty small. Bigger, of course, than the chance that the "loaded" BP weapon would magically go off and shoot someone downrange changing a target adjacent to the BP shooters' bench even though nobody touched it, but still small.

 

[Starter52]

The BP guy was right, the AR guy was wrong.

If your state says an uncapped gun is not loaded, then it's not loaded. BP was correct.

I'm guessing AR has never fired a blackpowder revolver and knows nothing about them.

 

[R.W.Dale]

The BP guy was right, the AR guy was wrong.

If your state says an uncapped gun is not loaded, then it's not loaded. BP was correct.

I'm guessing AR has never fired a blackpowder revolver and knows nothing about them.

I'm sorry but in my book Game and Fish commission regulations have absolutely NO BEARING WHATSOEVER with how guns should be treated at the range.

The gun should have either been fired or racked PERIOD end of discussion.

 

[Deanimator]

Loaded. They're always loaded. I've got the bullet hole in my living room wall to prove it too.

 

[T-Mac]

I'd say you were watching a couple of unfriendly hardheads who were making a stand with their necks bowed and trying to prove how "intelligent" they were to each other.
But .....I'd side with the guy using the AR15.

 

[bogie]

To damn many people need to find some other hobby.

Sheesh. Prop the sucker pointing at the air, and change the damn target already.

 

[Fosbery]

I think some people are way too paranoid about guns. Truth is that you are way WAY more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the range, or by falling down the stairs on your way to the car, than you are to get shot by an unmanned muzzle loader with no ignition source whilst retrieving a target. I'm all for taking sensible precautions but you can go too far. I don't drive my car at 5mph in case I crash, I don't wear a hard hat when using stairs, I don't put my guns on a rack to put up a target. Action open, I'm happy to walk in front of it.

 

[madmike]

to fire out three chambers requires criscoing over the bullets,

I've never used crisco on my BPs.

I supposed I must face some gauntlet of tongue lashing, now.

I don't take offense at the suggestion that AR shooters are snooty...but not nearly 5% as snooty as Garand shooters.

As to what the law defines as loaded...the law defines an AR15 as an "Assault weapon." I'm not likely to take a bureaucrats advice on the subject.

I'd be willing to compromise and say, "If you have the hammer down over the empty nipple, or a block between a half-cocked hammer and an empty nipple, I'll call it safe."

But I HAVE fired an "unprimed" cannon with spark ignition. Chances of it happening on the bench? Almost zero. The chances of a .45 on the bench firing with the safety engaged are even closer to zero, but I won't walk in front of one.

There technically is no need for me to check the chamber on an open weapon when the person handing it to me has just done the same, with no magazine in and no ammo open, and weapon pointed downrange. Guess what? I still do it.

I recall the one and only time I made a cursory check on an empty SMLE, closed the bolt and dropped the hammer before casing it...only to find there'd been ONE round inserted. Luckily, I was pointed downrange out of habit, even though it "Wasn't necessary."

If the chamber ain't empty, it ain't safe, if I'm running the range.

And as a courtesy to smokepole shooters, I'm happy to wait five minutes in appreciation of their art, while they take that shot.

 

[ArmedBear]

The AR shooter was "right." He said he'd wait until the other guy had fired the gun. No one who errs on the side of not getting shot is wrong. The BP shooter was wrong, not because the gun was likely to fire, but because it's the other guy's prerogative to play it safe at the range.

 

[Ed Ames]

I've never used crisco on my BPs.

Wax? "Bore Butter"? "Wonder Wads"? I've used all of the above. The idea is to prevent the probably-mythical "chain firing" of multiple loaded chambers due to hot gasses somehow getting around the other bullets and setting off the powder. Frankly I don't think it's a real problem but the fat seems to make the powder residue a little easier to clean up and I guess it's a version of not wanting to walk in front of an unprimed muzzle loader.

chances of a .45 on the bench firing with the safety engaged are even closer to zero, but I won't walk in front of one.

Yet every time you go out in public you are surrounded by people, cops and CCW licensees, who carry "condition 1" ... and those guns often point at you in their holsters. If it bothers you, you should be bothered all the time.



Different people are willing to accept different levels of risk in their lives, and that's fine.

I don't like shooting ranges all that much. I prefer public land. Basically, you drive along these dirt roads, past other people out shooting or sometimes offroading, until you find a clear spot with a good backstop. You find a spot as far as reasonably possible from everyone else and walk out, set up your targets, do your thing, and shoot. On a Saturday morning, first thing, you can pretty much pick your spot and not be within half a mile of anyone else. By afternoon though the distance between these impromptu "ranges" can shrink to a couple hundred yards because a lot of people are shooting. So you'll be out with a handgun trying to bust clays you have scattered along the hillside when someone else shows up and climbs up another part of the same hill to set his own target(s). And then, when you need to set up more targets, you go and set them up while he's shooting at his. If I thought the other people were being unsafe (haven't seen it yet) I'd move, but so far I haven't had any problems.

Of course, I usually carry my gun with me downrange to the target... that way I know where it is pointing at all times. If I have targets set up a good distance off, it is remotely possible that someone could ride up on a dirt bike (or even walk up), grab something, and be off before I even noticed it happening.

I'm sure many people on THR would see that as near-suicidal anarchy and would be extremely uncomfortable in such an environment... just as I see a "standard" shooting range as more dangerous because it forces too many people to share too small a space, and then trusts a few absurdly rigid rules to try and moderate that bad situation.

I still don't understand this case because there were a number of easy solutions available to both parties...but it isn't as though anyone was in any danger from that gun.

 

[10 Ring Tao]

AR boy was being anal and unreasonable.

 

[JP1954]

Defintely to be treated as loaded for the following reasons:


1) A static electric spark can ignite black powder. This was the reason
Alfred Nobel developed Dynamite. Black powder was much more dangerous
to work with because it is so easy to ignite.


2) Disregarding number 1 above, aren't we ALWAYS supposed to keep weapons pointed in a safe direction? Aren't they ALWAYS to be treated as loaded even if empty?


To sum up my 2 cents worth, I think AR man's idea of either firing or putting the firearm in the rack was the right way to treat the firearm. I also think that arguing with an armed or unarmed stranger was the wrong way to treat the stranger. Rather than argue, it would have been better to say " I feel more comfortable waiting until you shoot" and then occupy himself with something else while waiting. As for our hapless witness, they stuck you in an awkward spot. I think you chose the right course in keeping your nose out of it.

 

[ArmedBear]

AR boy was being anal and unreasonable.

Maybe true, but that's his prerogative.

It's in the best interest of all of us that no one gets hurt while shooting at a target range, even if that means that someone is being way more than cautious.

No one ever got hurt at a range by refusing to stand in front of a gun with powder and a bullet in it.

 

[madmike]

Wax? "Bore Butter"? "Wonder Wads"?

I have a wad behind the ball, and the balls are snug enough to shear a ring of lead. I don't see any need to put goop on top of those two seals for a third.

I think the only real problem here was the argument over whether or not it was safe. If your neighbor says he'll wait while you shoot, thank him and shoot.

 

[rr4406pak]

The AR guy was in the right. No question.

 

[Antihero]

You do, every second of every day. Get used to it.

This is stupid. Not being safe with guns doesnt make you cool, macho, or better than anyone it just makes you stupid.

I think some people are way too paranoid about guns. Truth is that you are way WAY more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the range, or by falling down the stairs on your way to the car, than you are to get shot by an unmanned muzzle loader with no ignition source whilst retrieving a target. I'm all for taking sensible precautions but you can go too far. I don't drive my car at 5mph in case I crash, I don't wear a hard hat when using stairs, I don't put my guns on a rack to put up a target. Action open, I'm happy to walk in front of it.

At a range with other people your opinion or if you're "happy" doesnt matter, the opinions of the other people that are trying to enjoy their time at the range does. Feel free to put your own life in danger but for christ sakes dont endanger others.

1) A static electric spark can ignite black powder. This was the reason
Alfred Nobel developed Dynamite. Black powder was much more dangerous
to work with because it is so easy to ignite.

Very true.

The couple times I've gone hunting with a musket, I unloaded it into a hillside before putting it back in the car. As far as I'm concerned, dumping the priming does NOT count as unloading. But then, I shoot matchlocks and medieval hande-gonnes, as well as percussion, wheel, and flint.

I agree, and i applaud you for good practice. After all what to you have to lose by really making sure it wont go off? What do you have to win by being "sure" that the gun wont go of without a primer? Nothing except arrogence.


[QUOTEIn addition, iron/steel against iron/steel almost never produces an ignitive spark, and is even less likely when struck head on as would a hammer against a steel nipple. (As opposed to struck at an angle to create a shower of sparks)][/QUOTE]

Almost never I know a guy who carries his blawkhawk in the glovebox of his truck with the hammer cocked. It also "almost never" goes off. Do you feel that its safe?

The problem is people, people like BP guy and AR guy who like to ague for the sake of it.

Thats s very true. Heres something nobody has thought of. What if BP guy had already primed and attempted to fire but it didnt go off? What if he was just starting to reprime it. In that case AR guy was right.


How many here who have fired blackpowder guns has a had a hangfire?? Lets see 1,2,3....yep everyone that has ever fired blackpowder rifles more than a couple of times.

 

[shootallatime]

Attitude makes no difference. The black powder guy had a gun that was fully-partially-maybe-whatever loaded. He should have told the guy where he was in the process, finished, fired, and laid the gun in a safe position.

We have a group of guys from our church who shoot together monthly on every kind of property and range imaginable. When the range is "hot" every gun is considered loaded. We have an appointed range officer who keeps all this in order.

When there is no RO, people have to act responsibly, and that means that every gun is loaded until it is fired, racked, unloaded and pointed in a safe direction. Period.

 

[bogie]

Heh... The 2/3 loaded smokepole isn't a problem... Picture this...

Guy loads a benchrest rifle with a 2 ounce trigger. There's some crud in the chamber/neck area, and the round goes in, but when he rotates the bolt, it comes to a stop. He tries to open it, and the bolt handle breaks off (they're silver-soldered on) He has a rifle with a live round, an ounce and a half trigger, a possible obstruction, and a "maybe in battery, maybe not" situation.

Now _THAT_ is interesting.