Argument At Gun Range Today

[GoSlash27]

I try really hard to not argue in these circumstances.
Just stand back and wait 'til the guy has fired. Or if I'm the guy with the muzzleloader, I go ahead and fire it.

 

[XavierBreath]

RENDER YOUR FIREARM INOPERABLE WHENEVER YOU ARE NOT SHOOTING. Never place the percussion cap on the nipple until just before firing and remove it immediately if you do not fire. Never carry or store a loaded firearm in a building or a vehicle. Unload it by firing it into a suitable backstop before returning to your vehicle, entering a building, crossing or climbing up or down any obstacle that may prevent you from keeping full control over the firearm, such as a fallen tree, fence, treestand or slippery area. Failure to follow this rule may cause serious injury or death to the shooter or bystanders.

http://www.remington.com/safety/safety_center/muzzleloader_safety_rules.asp

I've posted these links to show there is meat to both sides of this argument. Therefore, it boils down to respect for your fellow shooters, and refusal to remain where this respect is lacking.

 

[madmike]

I'll accept the NRA's definition. You can't really expect me to take MA's

But I'd rather err on the side of caution.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

In MI, a BP rifle with no cap or primer is considered unloaded by the Department of Natural Resources who manage hunting. So, you can transport it in your trunk with powder and ball in place, just no primer. And, you can walk with it in that condition even before the hunting period starts for the day. Once you put the cap on or insert the primer, it's loaded, and you're considered to be "hunting" so it better be after sunrise (as described in published time charts).


At a DNR range, however, a BP rifle with powder, ball, and no cap or primer is considered to be loaded. So, nobody goes downrange until that gun is fired.

As far as the argument goes, once a BP rifle has powder and ball in it, it takes only a few seconds to put a cap on in and shoot an aimed shot. Not worth an argument.

 

[3fgburner]

Remington's Lawyers weigh in

(Quoting Remington's page) Unload it by firing it into a suitable backstop before returning to your vehicle, entering a building, crossing or climbing up or down any obstacle that may prevent you from keeping full control over the firearm, such as a fallen tree, fence, ... etc

That one is definitely lawyerspeak. Dumping into a backstop, and reloading, to cross a fence, is IMO overly-anal. De-cap, lean up against the fence, and cross the fence. For one thing, firing every time you cross a fence is going to spook whatever you're hunting.

Of course, we're also talking about a Remington inline, which IMO is an abomination on the face of the earth. A Remington 700 with a ramrod is still a Remington 700.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Yes he was being overly anal and Yes being overly anal is better than having a .50 caliber hole in your back. He loaded the stupid thing to shoot it. He should have shot the round and made a cold range. When the range is cold the gun should be UNLOADED. Mags removed. No rounds in the weapon. Having a hot round in the chamber wether it was primed or not isn't a smart practice. Thats like saying I took the mag out, the hammer isn't cocked. It's unloaded, but there is one in the chamber.

I would be willing to bet he doesn't consider that "unloaded" when he cleans it, or puts it away in that condition when he gets home.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

In Cowboy Action Shooting, where they run a cold range, the C&B guys are allowed to load chambers (because of the amount of time it takes to do so)and are considered unloaded until they have capped the nipples.

 

[3fgburner]

would be willing to bet he doesn't consider that "unloaded" when he cleans it, or puts it away in that condition when he gets home.

I've seen people get bit in the @$$ by that "cap off = unloaded" hunting law. Back a few posts, I mentioned that the N-SSA has shooters snap a few caps at the beginning of a relay, to make sure their bores and nipples were clear.

When I had safety duty, I would ALWAYS yell, "First cap downrange, please!".

Typically, you'd pop a couple downrange, then one into the ground and make sure it moved the grass in front of the muzzle. There were a couple of times where someone would pop his first cap into the ground, and blow a trench in front of his feet. This, of course, resulted in the offender catching all kinds of merciless kidding and derision from the whole line.

At a National, this meant getting sarcastic applause from about 1,000 shooters at once.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

That being said, I would respect the person who does not wish to walk in front of it. If he is not going to shoot, it shouldn't be much of an inconvenience to point it elsewhere SAFE, such as staging it in a rack until you are ready to go or after the person has placed targets.

 

[ir3e971]

I used to do a lot of black powder shooting when I was younger. The matches I attended were all black powder, and I was taught all rounds had to be expended downrange before the range was clear.

No one tried to remove percussion caps, because occasionally they would get seated to well on the nipple, and removing them involved pliars. It wasn't really worth the effort, better to fire it downrange.

Now, these were traditional muzzleloaders, not these newer BP rifles that you see in Gander Mountain.

I would not have felt real comfortable going downrange, because it is definately different than I was taught.

Just my thought.

 

[COPATCH]

Loaded vs Unloaded

BENCH IT (in a safe direction of course) OR RACK IT. Period.
I can't tell you how may times I've heard stories about "Don't worry it's not loaded" and then BOOM! I'm not gonna check for caps or primers on another persons gun. I suspect the range rules were violated by Mr. Black Powder.....

 

[deanf]

any thoughts on what i should have done

You should have fired up your cell phone video camera and circumspectly taped the whole thing. Who knows, maybe you could be the next youtube star.

"All guns are always loaded." So if the guy had sent the load downrange, the gun would still be loaded after the shot? If all guns are always loaded, then the argument about whether it was loaded is moot. It should be treated the same no matter what.

 

[madmike]

This is the thread that doesn't end! Yes, it goes on and on my friend. Some people started arguing not knowing what it was, and they'll continue arguing forever just because this is the thread that doesn't end! Yes, it goes on and on my friend. Some people started arguing not knowing what it was, and they'll continue arguing forever just because this is the thread that doesn't end! Yes, it goes on and on my friend. Some people started arguing not knowing what it was, and they'll continue arguing forever just because

 

[XavierBreath]

I agree madmike.



Madmike and I agree?



Can we end it now? Shall I?

 

[madmike]

Both sides have a point. Everyone rational agrees the AR shooter shouldn't have to walk in front of a gun he's not comfortable with. Some say he overreacted, some say the other guy did, most people think it's not worth arguing over, just take your shot and be done...

am I missing anything?

 

[XavierBreath]

I don't think so.
Nice synopsis madmike.

 

[Remander]

The guy with the muzzleloader was there to shoot it I presume? If so why didn't he just shoot his load and let the guy hang a target, thus avoiding the problem.

Because both of them were like so many macho morons that would prefer arguing over actual shooting.

Both could have easily avoided the issue by AR guy saying, "Go ahead and shoot your next target, and I'll go downrange then. Take your time."

Blackpowder (rather than arguing over whether his gun was loaded) responds, "Thanks, I'll just be a couple of minutes."

Problem solved. But likely impossible, given that it requires the congruence of two polite, rational thinking folks encountering each other. There will almost always be one ***hole as part of the equation. Sad but true.

 

[JWarren]

This thread just made me HIGHLY appreciative of the fact that My family has a few hundred acres of wooded, undeveloped land...

The only time these discussions come up is with the voices in my head...





John

 

[jon_in_wv]

I think they should have just thumb wrestled and settled it once and for all.

 

[Rachen]

Sometimes, people always get into stupid arguments.

I went to a pub less than a year ago, and witnessed a pretty nasty brawl where at least 3 men were injured. How did it start? Well I overheard a bunch of guys, one of them who took out I think was a Playboy or some entertainment magazine, and talked about the "prettiest girl" in the whole magazine. The heat quickly got started when they began to argue about who was "the prettiest". It all ended in fists, feet, glasses and the police showed up about 15 minutes later. I doubt they were even drunk, they all made sense when speaking. Sometimes, all it took was the right time to start a silly fight.

 

[Super Trucker]

The AR guy was willing to wait quietly? Than the black powder guy was wrong. He should have finished what he was doing taken the shot and everybody done their thing.