Argument At Gun Range Today

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1) A static electric spark can ignite black powder.
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Umm... minor detail here... the chamber of most firarms (including all firearms under current discussion) is made of a special material chosen to have unfilled spaces in the valence energy band, allowing electrons to migrate between unfilled states. This actively disipates any intergranule static charges before ignition is possible.

In other words, the chamber is metal and conducts electricity well enough to prevent sparking. Same as powder flasks, which are either metal or electrically conductive (carbon impregnated) plastic for the same reason.

:rolleyes:

I have a wad behind the ball, and the balls are snug enough to shear a ring of lead. I don't see any need to put goop on top of those two seals for a third.
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Oh, well if you are rich enough to afford wads for every ball... :D Seriously, if you don't have a wad behind the ball you should put some crisco in front. They both do the job. I prefer the crisco because a) it's cheaper, and b) it seems to soften some of the fouling... but no worries either way.
 
bogie, I wouldn't want that no matter what. :what:

I think I'd vote for calling a gunsmith for some on-site work.

As for the BP rifle(I deduced it was a rifle because he ended putting it into a rifle stand, and it was a rifle range), I'd say it was loaded enough for me.

I had enough fun when an emergency cease-fire was called(idiot wandered onto live range), then an unload order and I had a fully loaded lever-action. Wasn't fun sitting there working the action to empty the magazine when everybody else could simply pull the magazine and open their action, and thus were staring at me because I wasn't done yet.

I probably would have prefered to open the action and shake out the released round, then just leave the action open and pointed in a safe direction.
 
Bogie:

Smack it with a hammer and see if it fires. If it don't, smack it with a bigger hammer.

If it still don't, pry it open with tools while pointed in a safe direction.

If that ain't possible, place the barrel over the bench and smack with a sledge until discharge is impossible.

Problem solved:D

Everyone knows the BR guys are the SUV owners of the shooting world anyway.:p
 
My two cents

Due to being brainwashed by Misguided Childern(USMC) All Weapons Are Louded, To Go Down Range All weapons are cleared and Grounded(racked or what ever). Of course, I'm just a FNG at the site.
Semper Fi
Doc:)
 
The muzzleloader should have just shot. I would agree that it is more loaded than unloaded. So its loaded.

I'd say it was loaded....
The way I looked at it, safety is paramount and on a range where anything from lit cigarettes, to smoldering wads floating around or smoldering residue could one in a million set off the black powder somehow, I aint taking the chance with someone else's life down range.
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+1
 
Right or wrong, I personally would not have felt comfortable walking downrange with a black powder rifle pointing down range in that configuration. Perhaps that is due to my ignorance of black powder shooting. Having someone treat me like an ignoramus would not make me feel any safer.

If I were the black powder shooter, I would have either shot the rifle or racked it pointing skyward so the AR guy would feel comfortable. Doing either is so easy, but apparently it was more important to the BP guy to be right than to be courteous. Whether he is right or wrong about the rifle being loaded, he was wrong to engage in an argument over the subject with another shooter.

Arguments at the range are not a good thing. Courtesy is apparently not the black powder guy's strong suit. The lack of common courtesy bothers me more than the rifle. I don't like shooting around know-it-alls.
 
Quote:
"I don't like shooting around know-it-alls"
-----------------------------
Words to live by.
 
Loaded or unloaded is not the issue unless you want to deal with just semantics and legalities- Could it go off?- Yup, black powder is funny stuff- Would it fire, probably not, but I'm not willing to take the chance
 
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In addition, iron/steel against iron/steel almost never produces an ignitive spark, and is even less likely when struck head on as would a hammer against a steel nipple.
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Yeah, if it was cocked and loaded. I did mention that BP pistol is single-action, did i not? As in, if i were an idiot, and cocked it, and pulled the trigger WITH powder AND ball but NO percussion cap, it would not fire. Almost never. Basically, I could try to shoot someone all day long, but without a percussion cap, it will not happen. A BP pistol with no percussion cap is a paperweight. Every states' law that I know of agrees. You might think its loaded, but powder doesnt mean "loaded". You need an ignitive source.

Due to being brainwashed by Misguided Childern(USMC) All Weapons Are Louded [sic], To Go Down Range All weapons are cleared and Grounded(racked or what ever[sic]). Of course, I'm just a FNG at the site.
Semper Fi
Doc
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So? Im a former US Marine also. AR guy was still wrong. And arrogant, besides.

A static electric spark can ignite black powder. This was the reason
Alfred Nobel developed Dynamite. Black powder was much more dangerous
to work with because it is so easy to ignite.
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Very true.
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Get your facts straight. This is completely untrue. Black powder is defined as an insensitive propellant of the low explosive variety. Nobel developed a safe form of Nitroglycerin, which was highly sensitive and prone to spontaneous ignition through shock: Trinitrotoluene (TNT).
 
The ranges I go to make a point of having any loaded but unprimed ML's fired before a CF is called. It's really not a big deal.
 
YOU get YOUR facts straight. Dynamite is not TNT. Nitroglycerine C3H5N3O9 in Diatomaceous earth is dynamite. TNT C7H5N3O6 is considerably more stable and not quite as powerful.

Gee, I'm arrogant if I don't want to walk in front of someone else's weapon.

At that point, I think I'd pack up, leave, and find a better place to shoot.

I must meet a lot of arrogant people. No one I know likes having a muzzle pointed at them, even when the weapon is empty. It's like they don't trust people.
 
Please note that I never called TNT dynamite. I simply quoted a previous poster.

But of course, since both terms were in the same post, you probably made the assumption that i did.
 
Get your facts straight. This is completely untrue. Black powder is defined as an insensitive propellant of the low explosive variety. Nobel developed a safe form of Nitroglycerin, which was highly sensitive and prone to spontaneous ignition through shock: Trinitrotoluene (TNT).
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That looks like your post and your statements. If I misunderstood, I apologize. It seems to state that TNT is a "Safe form of nitroglycerin," which it is not.
 
I'll make a couple of observations........
Would is [sic] fire, probably not, but I'm not willing to take the chance.
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The sad thing is, the BP man is so confident that he is willing to take the chance with someone's life rather than simply place his rifle in the rack behind him. That's arrogant. Requesting that he do so is not.

Let's not have this thread degenerate into an argument filled with attacks. The real issue is courtesy between shooters and making everyone involved feel safe when they go downrange. If that means racking rifles, it means racking rifles, not arguing about it. Even if you feel your firearm is safe to leave pointed down range, if another shooter feels it is unsafe to do so, simply show some courtesy and rack the darned thing. There are few feelings more sobering than being down range and hearing a bullet go flying past you, or seeing a hole get punched in the target beside the one you are changing and then hearing the report of the shot.

Personally, I go with actions open, nobody touching the weapons, but on some guns, such as AK variants that will not lock an action open, I rack them......I don't want to be the guy who cripples or kills another person because I failed to do everything I could to make a safe range. It doesn't take much to be safe, and it doesn't take much to show courtesy. Right or wrong, if another shooter felt unsafe with muzzles pointed downrange, no matter what kind of rifle it was, the rifles should be racked first. That's why the racks are there.
 
Re: Wads / Crisco / Bore butter vs chainfires

Madmike, I generally do the same thing you do with my Rogers & Spencer. Powder, Wonder Wad soaked in bullet lube (Crisco/paraffin mix), and ball. I've used Crisco, Bore Butter, and minie' lube as well.

Ed, chainfires ain't mythical. My brother had 5 chambers of a Remington go off at once. Fortunately, the one under the rammer didn't go. Left some interesting lead smears on the sides of the frame, heading downrange. Also caused my bro to need a change of underwear.

Now, HERE's the scary one:
54342837.pistol5.jpg

The above was a blank. It also shoots ball.

54342838.proof1.jpg
 
I'm not a black powder shooter, but I recently took the NRA Range Safety Officer course, and passed it. At one point during the course, there was a section specifically discussing blackpowder rifles. And, according to the latest NRA RSO instructional material, a BP rifle lacking the cap is considered unloaded for range purposes. Disagree with the NRA if you wish, that's entirely up to you, but according to the de facto source of firearms safety information, the blackpowder guy was correct. Maybe he was arrogant, or maybe the other shooter started the argument.

Personally I don't have an intuitive grasp of the functioning aspects of a blackpowder weapon (other than basic principles). But I'm figuring that if the NRA, the bastion of hyper-safety-mindedness that they are, considers it to be acceptable, then the risk is probably pretty much nonexistent.
 
How do I unload my rifle ... ?
The easiest way to unload a muzzleloader is to shoot the charge and bullet out of the rifle at the end of the range session or the hunting day. Inline rifles can be unloaded by removing the breech, dumping the powder out, and pushing the bullet out through the barrel.

http://www.mlhunter.com/muzzleloadingfaqinfo.htm#HowUnload

Granted, I don't know if this is directly applicable, but dissenting opinions are interesting. If citing a source, let's all post a link to that source, OK?
 
How do I unload it? I mean, other than by firing it.
That depends on the firearm. Some allow their breeches to be dissasmbled, so that the charge may be pushed through the bore. Others may not be disassembled, and therefore would require a bullet puller be screwed into the bullet to withdraw it.

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIIF2a.html
 
Mass Chapter 269: Section 12D
For purposes of this section, "loaded shotgun or loaded rifle'' shall mean any shotgun or rifle having ammunition in either the magazine or chamber thereof, such ammunition including a live cartridge, primer (igniter), bullet or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm, rifle or shotgun and, in the case of a muzzle loading or black powder shotgun or rifle, containing powder in the flash pan, a percussion cap and shot or ball; but the term "loaded shotgun or loaded rifle'' shall not include a shotgun or rifle loaded with a blank cartridge, which contains no projectile within such blank or within the bore or chamber of such shotgun or rifle.

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/269-12d.htm
 
It is basic, fundamental gun handling to understand that a muzzleloader is considered unloaded when the ignition source is removed AND the powder and projectile are removed from the barrel. Though you might think it common sense, it is still loudly recommended by every muzzleloading manufacturer and powder manufacturer.

It is more difficult to double-load a muzzleloader than is not already loaded. Leaving a muzzleloader loaded makes you responsible for that condition, and for whatever transpires as a result. There is no guarantee that your gun will misfire, nor is their any guarantee that an idle powder charge will rot your barrel. Nor can any specific velocity loss be guaranteed; there are too many variables.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/leave_muzzleloader_loaded.htm
 
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