Armed robbery in pharmacy - what would YOU do?

[Green Lantern]

This is based on a real situation that happened to someone in my line of work (pharmacy tech). I don't have all the details EXACT, but the general idea.

After some feedback, I'll tell "the rest of the story." By all means don't look forward to it as "the RIGHT answer," more like "sometimes DUMB luck is on YOUR side....!"

Okay...you're working the register in a chain pharmacy when a man walks up with a gun. Whether or not to let him have the contents of the register is a moot point - he immediately orders you and your co-workers back into the pharmacy area, and tells you all to get face-down on your knees.

FYI - there are NO alarms, save for some on doors you can't possibly reach. The "powers that be" decree that it's too risky. "You will be murdered if you go for ANY alarm, even a silent alarm to the police you could step on with your foot under the counter, out of his sight."

There are NO cameras either. The same folks that see the highest murder potential in a robber, for some reason refuse to install even $10 FAKE cameras as a deterrent until something happens! And the best you can hope for is only a recording camera - NOT a professionally monitored one.

Armed security, even CCW? "FUH-GEDABOUTIT!"

You're on your own. And he again tells you all to get down on your knees...!

 

[gcerbone]

1) This would never happen to me, because I would never work in such a high risk environment.

2) This is basically what happened at a Wendy's in Brooklyn. Everyone was executed. One guy with a gun? I'd fight like my life depended on it. Which is likely does.

 

[cpileri]

Why a 8-lb kitty cat can kick your a$$...

Ever wonder why people shy away from an agressive, loudly barking... POODLE?
or a hissing, claws flailing kitty cat?
or why you wont reach into the tank where a 2-foot, 2-pound Garter Snake (g. Thamnophis; a commonn non-venemous snake) with a total mouth opening of 1 inch resides?

No real suprise: its because you don't want to get hurt. Also a factor is that the average guy wont do what is necessary to incapacitate the animal with his bare hands:
1. hurt the animal, AND
2. be injured in the process.

Really, the animal is TOUGHER than you, and IS willing to hurt you and get hurt doing it- because it fears for its life. Once you resign yourself to the fact that you have to hurt the animal to defend yourself, and that you are going to 'take a punch' doing so; you will win.

That dog? Once it bites you on the arm or wherever -sure it draws blood, maybe even alot of it- (assume none of these animals gets lucky and blinds you by destroying eyes), you break its front paws and pound its skull open. or you pick it up and hurl it HARD against or into/onto something painful or deadly. Break the snakes neck, or bite it in half (gross, but it works).

You have to get tough.

So back to the unarmed folks in the pharmacy (or Wendy's)...

People comply with the demands of an armed BG because their instinct NOT to get hurt kicks in. "Maybe he wont hurt me", says your unconscious. Even after he starts executing folks, 'Maybe he'll stop'. Your societal programming reinforces compliance even in the face of overwhelming evidence, dead bodies, that the BG is dangerous.

You need to get over that! be the first one to rush the guy: others will follow you. really, that's the problem: you have to trust that you wont be alone. But as the Marines say: someone has to take point and point men get shot. Like that Marine pointman, once the first guy engages the enemy the others have a much higher chance of winning the fight for the group. Then you'll need medical care. Go ahead, get hurt for a chance to live.

Remember: your ALL dead if no one does anything.

C-

 

[Technosavant]

My wife is a pharmacist.

If I saw a guy trying this, my answer is simple: open fire.

 

[mikeb3185]

fight like hell. he is out numbered and in thoery my co-workers would come to my aid

 

[jeepmor]

Yes, you must fight.

Die on your knees giving up or fighting. Choice seems obvious, you may actually have a chance of living if you fight. Very likely not while on your knees.

Give him a prescription of Pb, provided by your CCW, free refills. Here in the Methland of the PNW, I can see this happening and suspect it already has to some degree since the pseudophedrine is now behind the counter.

jeepmor

 

[Spare]

I would need more information that would be available at the time:
Number/condition of co-workers (young, fit or older, etc)
Condition of attacker
Number/type of customers currently in store

Both of my parents are pharmacists, so I have some background knowledge. Most recent pharmacy robberies are commited for the sole purpose of stealing narcotics. Sometimes the robbers are very aware, stable, and competent, but they can also be suffering from withdrawal, dementia, or other conditions due to their drug use. So it would really depend on my impression of the attacker and available resources (co-workers or customers that seem able to help).

This scenario actually strikes close to home. Right after graduating from college (1960s), my father worked at a pharmacy chain in downtown Buffalo. One day a man came in with something pointing from a jacket pocket. He claimed to have a gun, and he wanted all of the narcotics that were in the safe. My father had access to a 'silent alarm' button that would ring in the diner next door, and said diner's employees had been instructed to act when hearing the alarm. My father also knew that LEOs were often in said diner.

He made the decision to not press the button and comply. He was working with two female techs, and the store was empty except for a few older customers. The robber took the narcotics that were offered, locked them in a back room, and left.

After calling the police, they decided to test the 'silent alarm'. They pressed the button and immediately heard a loud ringing sound. It turns out that the person who installed the alarm had it ringing in the diner AND the pharmacy. Who knows what would've happened if the alarm was tripped while the robber was present.

Two weeks later (and with the same alarm setup, management was slow to act), my father is working again. Same man comes into store with same demand. My father once again complies. Robber is caught soon after leaving pharmacy, narcotics are recovered. Fortunately he stopped working there soon after.

Another scenario: a few months ago, my mother is working in a pharmacy in very rural upstate NY. She is working with another pharmacist, a 70-something man, veteran, maybe 5 feet tall. Young man comes into pharmacy with backpack, claims he has a bomb and he wants their narcotics. Old pharmacist comes out from behind counter, says "Show me." Young man says something about how he better not try anything, he's real serious. Old man says "I don't believe you. Get out of my store." Old man pushes young guy out the door, he runs off. Cops catch him a few blocks away.


Sorry if this is hijacking your thread, but that scenario really got me goin'.
Also, this is my first post, although I've been lurking here for a while

 

[Shweboner]

My wife is a pharmacy tech @ riteaid. Not a likely scenario at here location as it is in a nicer area and open 24/7 and busy all the time.

However, knowing some of the people who work there, I think our BG will have a fight on his hands.

Or maybe if it goes on at a time when I happen to pop in to say hello... well lets just say that the only call to 911 will be for an ambulance. And then someone will have to sweep up all of the brass.

 

[Geno]

#1 Highest Risk Business = Pharmacy

I refuse ever to go to a pharmacy without my CCW. From what I have read at various sites, and according to my shooting instructors, pharmacies are usually targeted by heavily-armed gangs, more frequently than they are targeted by some random drug-head seeking a fix.

When I'm at a pharmacy, I remain extra-alert of who is around me, and where I am in relation to the exit. I almost never take my daughter to the pharmacy with me, and when my family needs a script, I pick it up for them (wife doesn't have a CCW).

Doc2005

 

[ZeSpectre]

I think most robberies are based on the notion that the average joe won't fight back. I really wish we could change this socitial programming.

Now I'm not saying just go berserker right off the bat, review the situation as best you can (and make sure there aren't other bad guys just out of sight or something) and then act.

Also, in a pharmacy I'd plot out in advance what you could use/keep handy for this sort of situation.

Something that would blind like some menthol or something. Hell, 99% rubbing alcohol and a match might work (splash the alcohol on him and tell him if he fires the gun the alcohol will catch fire and go up like gasoline. (not exactly true but most criminals won't know that).

I don't know, I'm just brainstorming.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

YOU FIGHT AS IF YOUR LIFE DEPENDED UPON IT.

Period.

Me, I believe that if a gun is pointed at you in said situation, your life DOES depend on it. However, the question is one of tactics. When is your best choice to mount said counter assault? People like to talk about things like whether you will die on your knees or die fighting, but being placed on your knees doesn't mean you will be executed and where you are in relation to the bad guy when so ordered may preclude you from being able to effect any realistic responses. It may be in your favor, if armed, to be the first to comply. Then when the guy turns his attention to the slower moving bystandars, you may then have an opportunity to at least be well into your draw or fully drawn before he realizes what you are doing. In other words, you capitulate so long as it serves to better your situation, then respond. If capitulation does not serve to better your situation, you respond immediately. It just depends on the specific circumstances.

 

[shappy0869]

What I am going to say is going to probably ruffle a few feathers, but then again, facts tend to do that.

Looking at the FBI's crime statistics, in 2005 there were 14,860 murders. Of those, 965 were attributed to robbery and rape. This means that if you are the victim of a rape or robbery, there is an approximate 6.5% chance that you will be killed. Also, according to the Department of Justice, of the victims of nonfatal violent crime who faced an assailant armed with a firearm, 3%
suffered gunshot wounds.

My point is that the odds are overwhelmingly good that if you do nothing, you will survive. It is the (well publicized) exception to the rule that you will die. Sort of like plane crashes, the odds of your plane crashing are fairly remote, but people still fear it (though the odds are better for plane crashes than murders, I will admit).

However, if you CCW, you are much more likely to use it in such a situation, greatly increasing the odds that you or an innocent bystander will get shot.

I am not trying to preach or dictate an action. It is up to the individual to decide if they like the odds I have presented.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Let the debate begin.

What I am going to say is going to probably ruffle a few feathers, but then again, facts tend to do that.

You should make sure you have the facts before you make a statement like that. Also if you are going to quote "facts" and numbers you should post the sources so others can review for themselves. No offense but I don't know you from Adam and I'm not about to just take your word for something.

Looking at the FBI's crime statistics, in 2005 there were 14,860 murders. Of those, 965 were attributed to robbery and rape. This means that if you are the victim of a rape or robbery, there is an approximate 6.5% chance that you will be killed. Also, according to the Department of Justice, of the victims of nonfatal violent crime who faced an assailant armed with a firearm, 3% suffered gunshot wounds.

Where are you getting these numbers? The FBI site shows some pretty different figures for 2005.

1,390,695 violent crimes reported/investigated
16,692 "murder and non-negligent manslaughter"
93,934 "forceable rapes"
417,122 Robberies

But the whole point you are trying to make is rendered completely null by the unrecorded statistic which is "number of attempted crimes aborted by victim resistance (in whatever form that takes)" along with a breakdown of the % aborted by attitude, pepper spray, marshal arts training, CCW, knives, cell phones, etc.

Most of these "aborted" crimes never get recorded and probably a lot of them never even get reported in the first place but I think you can be pretty sure that the planned crime wasn't "aborted" by the intended victim doing nothing.

My point is that the odds are overwhelmingly good that if you do nothing, you will survive. It is the (well publicized) exception to the rule that you will die. Sort of like plane crashes, the odds of your plane crashing are fairly remote, but people still fear it (though the odds are better for plane crashes than murders, I will admit).

I think your logic is based on a very flawed set of information.

 

[shappy0869]

Attached are the numbers I got from the FBI site.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Shappy,
thanks for posting the info source. This could be a good discussion as well but I just realized we've hijacked Green Lantern's thread somewhat and our debate (should we wish to continue it) is probably more correctly carried out in it's own thread. If you start another PM me and let me know so I can join in.

 

[Green Lantern]

Thanks for the feedback.

Glad to see at least I think I had the right answer. Even if "get down on your knees" does not ALWAYS mean "I'm gonna execute you," I sure didn't intend to take that risk!

However...shappy may actually be onto something. As promised, here's how the "real" situation ended.

All employees did as the BG said, and he went to the shelves to clean out what he wanted.

Meanwhile, there was one employee, male, a talented artist. The floor was tile...while on his knees, he proceeds to start making a drawing of the robber's face for future reference on the floor! :banghead:

Luckily the BG just intended to take the drugs and leave. DANG luckily, he did not notice the would-be Picasso's work on the floor and change his mind. He got away, but I hear the police actually took that tile with them for the police artist to use! And in the end the BG was caught.

So...again, while this teaches me that not all bad guys are out to liquidate the witness...

Since most OTHER "non-violents" I've heard of simply order the STAFF to hand over the goods...

I would probably still fight. There is usually at least one other man on duty (though one is semi-disabled), and a female ex-parole officer among other able-bodied ladies!

Not saying any would-be robber is doomed, but hopefully I wouldn't be going it alone...!

 

[jzimm9mm]

Sorry if this consititues a hijack....

The 6.5% sited earlier is actually the likelyhood that if you were murdured it was during a robbery or rape, not the likelyhood that you will be murdured during a robbery or rape.

Combining ZeSpectre and Shappy's data for 2005 we can get the correct probability:

murdurs associated with robbery & rape = 965 (thanks Shappy)
total robberies & rapes = 511056 (thanks ZeSpec)

Likelyhood of being murdured during a robbery or rape (in 2005) = 0.19%

Glad the situation worked out for the best. That was some quick thinking under stress for the guy to sketch the perp.

Jer..

 

[Grayrock]

I work in a pharmacy. The "powers that be" have decreed that I am to be unarmed. However, there is no such provision for customers (no 30.06 sign here in Texas). I have thought several times of sneaking in my CCW- but I kinda need my job. I can understand the suits not wanting to have a BG sue us because this turned out to be the one pharmacy this BG couldn't trust! We have been instructed to comply with any and all demands a BG gives during a robbery. Comply- but observe. I'm a sheeple! :banghead:

 

[Powderman]

Gun in hand?

Tells everyone to kneel on the floor?

What would I do?

FIGHT. RIGHT NOW.

I would first accept the fact that it would be VERY likely that I would take a hit. I would pray that it would not instantly incapacitate me.

Then, I would draw my weapon and fix with firm resolve my intent to dump the whole mag center mass into the BG.

If the BG was arm's length or less, a good firm IMMEDIATE shove, as hard as you can, will disorient and buy you a second or so. That's all you need. Draw from concealment, and engage in what we used to call in the Infantry "walking fire". In short, shoot the BG to the ground, RIGHT NOW.
Then immediately seek cover.
If the BG still has the weapon in hand, then the "pons" shot is in order. Right at the bridge of the nose to shut down the nervous system.

In short, I will NOT go gently into that good night.

 

[ezypikns]

Sorry to be a spoilsport, but I believe most of this is horse dung.

You MAY fight like the devil. You MAY beg for your life. You MAY lie quietly on the floor and pray. You MAY wet yourself.
Someone said something like: "He can't shoot all of us." True, but he probably WILL shoot one of you. Who will it be? You MAY be willing to take that chance.
You'll do what you will IF it ever happens, and I pray it never happens to any of us. Trying to find the proper mindset for a bad scenario should be productive, but if someone is holding you at gunpoint you're basically toast anyway.
Please understand, I'm not accusing anyone of cowardice. Some of you may have been in life threatening situations before and acquitted themselves very well. I'm just wondering if a little sober realism isn't called for here.

 

[strambo]

What would I do when robbed in a Pharmacy? Take a Valium of course!

Seriously, that's why I've been training "reality based" H2H/Combatives for 11+ years. It's not so much that we are stuck in there with him...it's that he is stuck in there with me.

As soon as he gets within arms reach to order me down, I will kill him. I know that sounds arrogant or overconfident, but if you are professionally trained, a guy with a gun in arms reach won't stand a chance. That's why professionals who understand this don't hold people at gunpoint within arms reach of them. Action beats reaction every time.

The real danger is of an errant shot hitting a bystander, gotta know the arc of the muzzle during the disarm. You usually can go a few different ways depending on the angles. If he is like 10ft away, well you can run away or close distance and go for it. Sucks either way, but your odds of survival are good even if he gets one shot in you. The closer he is the better. Contact range is easiest of all to disarm.

On the confidence thing, in training you need to understand the reality, the odds and what a person with or without weapon can and can't do. You need to know at what ranges you will be most successful and what kind of situations you can handle. In the situation, there is no reason to be anything other than 100% confident. Uncertainty isn't a survival trait, not when action is called for. So, in training I keep myself grounded to reality, in combat...it's his tough luck he decided to rob me. Maybe he'll get lucky and figure out his own solution to what to do when your robbing a store and someone breaks your elbow and is 1 second away from crushing your throat.

Multiple armed robbers will really complicate things...again, if your sure they are gonna kill you, nothing to lose. Take one out, keep his body between you and the others as a shield. Get his gun or close distance and take out the next one, until either you, or all of them are non-functional.

Example of a pretty effective disarm and action vs reaction is Robert Deniro in the hotel hallway in "HEAT". The only critique is he backs up to feel the gun on his neck/head (I don't remember which and it doesn't matter)...good way to get shot. He knew where the gun holder had to be based on the hallway width, should have went for it, not backed up 1st.

 

[strambo]

but if someone is holding you at gunpoint you're basically toast anyway.

If that is "your reality", then no one else can change it. I can't teach firearms disarmament over the internet, so I won't try. There have been many people, not trained in disarmament who just fought and overcame them anyway. A recent story about a woman who struggled with a home invader, eventually got his gun and shot him. I doubt she was professionally trained, no training was mentioned or even hinted at in the article.

You aren't basically "toast" even if untrained. If trained, the odds are tipped well in your favor actually. I hate putting numbers to this because it they are made up like Brady Center stastitics. I've traditionally heard MA instructors say 50/50 chance at a gun disarm. Well, if their techniques are only 50/50 run, don't walk somewhere else.

You can prove the viability (mostly) of a disarm with airsoft or simunition. This is a worse case scenario physically, the opponent knows you are going to try something in the next few seconds and is ready (if a real BG thought you were gonna try something, they'd have shot you already or be way further back). The missing element is high stress, but paintball or simunition will add some of that pucker factor. It proves the action/reaction and the angles though.

 

[ezypikns]

You sir would definitely NOT be "toast"

However:

but if you are professionally trained, a guy with a gun in arms reach won't stand a chance.

Most of us aren't professionally trained by someone like yourself. I wish we were. I'd like to think I would be one of those who would take quick, decisive action, but I can't be sure until I'm in such a situation.

And I hope I never have to find out.

 

[strambo]

Most of us aren't professionally trained by someone like yourself. I wish we were.

My military training and background, starting out in an elite unit...is circumstancial to this subject (will look good in ads). I learned H2H on my own from sources available to any civilian, using my own time and $$ because I didn't feel I was getting what I needed from the military.

In the military, I learned a lot about how to close with and destroy the enemy with all available weapons and small unit tactics...etc. Other than bayonet training though, H2H is only given a passing exposure. Elite units often contract out to get the H2H training they need. I just "contracted out" for myself. There is a growing "Reality Based" training movement for civilians. With no endorsment for any, or in any order: Krav Maga, Target Focus Training, Jim Wagner, Tony Blauer, Haganah (FIGHT), SCARS, Vladimir Vaseliev (SYSTEMA), RMCAT, Kelly McKann, "SouthNarc" and many others.

There likely won't be someone local. Have to order some DVDs and find a good training partner. Then after awhile go to a live training course. Sample DVDs from other systems/instructors that look good. Although I train one of the above almost exclusively, I have a very large library of training videos from many different instructors, so I've seen a lot of what is out there. I try to stay objective because it is my life. Blind devotion to a "style" isn't gonna impress a BG. When I get home, I'm gonna get instructor certified and open a business...hopefully without starving. A cert. in the main system I train takes about 3 years. There is another good one that I can do quickly, so I'll start with that.

There is a gap in the market for reality based training at a local level. There are CCW classes for guns and shooting classes perhaps. MA for fitness and discipline with some self defense carry over and Mixed Martial Arts training for sport with some self defense carryover. There is no place I've heard of that (at a local level) teaches awareness and avoidance, pre-post incident considerations, H2H and firearms instruction all focused on self protection. A number of organizations above will teach all that if you pay thousands and go to them. Most just teach some topics, not others. None are known to, or accessable to the average working person who wants to protect their family.

How big is the market for this at a local level? I hope big enough that I don't starve...most people not into guns or MA don't think about protection though. They are however, most at risk. A lot of reality based trainers get civilian students AFTER they have been victimized...kinda late.

 

[Green Lantern]

I think what they mean by "you are toast anyway" is that if things have gone so far south that the BG is marching you all to the "execution position," what have you got to LOSE by fighting back???

Of course, you stand a better than good chance of "lead poisoning" if you attack if you're untrained like me...

If he just says Gimme the Oxy, by heck he's gonna GET his Oxy. But in a situation like in the OP...? I think I'm NOT gonna trust his "good will."