Ask a Bounty Hunter

[ilbob]

I don't really care if you are a bail recovery agent or not. if I tell you to bug off and your response is to kick in the door, I will deal with you the same way I would deal with any other home invader.

If you show up with a cop, I'd be inclined to extend some courtesy to the cop because he is, after all, a cop.

 

[ilbob]

Another one wore a REPLICA .45 auto in a shoulder holster! The magazine was a real one, and it had 7 rounds of "live" ammo in it....but the barrel was made of pot iron and had a permanent plug in it. The reason why he carried that replica pistol? He was on parole for ARMED ROBBERY from New York State!

convicted felons cannot have real ammo either. i suspect they were fake rounds.

 

[DMF]

Do bondsmen feel guilty? I only recovery and do not write, but by and large-- they are human beings with consciences (unlike lawyers). But they are businessmen who contribue something to society. Not every that is arrested is guilty, and its also cheaper for the city/county/state to not have to feed and clothe every offender for months until the courts catch up... Bondsmen try to keep a tight leash on their bonds for that reason.

Nice try at rationalizing your role in the bail bonds business.

1st, you help protect the bondsman's money, which is why he is willing to risk someone skipping.

2nd, no one said everyone arrested is guilty. However, when the judge sets a bail that amount is supposed to be large enough that the DEFENDANT, not the bail bondsman, will have an incentive to be in court. The bail bonds business allows those people to get out of jail for a fraction (usually only 10%) of the actual bail, and therefore at a much lower financial risk to themselves. Because the defendant has a much lower financial risk, it increases the chance they will not comply with the conditions of their bail.

3rd, your business contributes nothing to the betterment of society, it only INCREASES the chance the defendant will not comply with conditions of bail, and INCREASES the risk to society that the defendant will hurt more people after he/she skips.

 

[DMF]

Criminals working as recovery agents is mostly a thing of hollywood, at least around here.

Well I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm sure there are some bounty hunters who try to be professional, and are more than just thugs trying to scrape up some money.

However, the vast majority of bounty hunters do have at the least a "shady past," and often have an extensive criminal history themselves.

I will say this, a friend of mine once worked with a bounty hunter to catch several criminals. That bounty hunter was what we call a "cooperating defendant." He provided information on his criminal associates as part of a deal to reduce his own jail time.

Here is a simple checklist that most bounty hunters seem to follow to get into the business:

1- Apply to several LE agencies, and find out you don't qualify.
2- Decide since LE is too difficult to get into, you will try to be a fireman, only to find out it's just as difficult to get in, if not more so.
3- Start applying for corrections jobs only to realize, again, that requirements are just as tough as they were for cops and firemen.
(ALTERNATE: get hired for a job in phase 1,2, or 3, only to get fired, then skip to step 6)
4- Look into becoming a PI until you realize that most states have enough licensing requirements that you don't qualify.
5- Become a bouncer while reading all the crap you can on bounty hunters.
6- Take some "training" from another bounty hunter that will hopefully make you contacts that will get you some work.

 

[DMF]

And for the states that don't even allow that, I use harsh language and idol threats.

"Come out with your hands up or the effing golden calf is gonna get it!" *Slapping knee*

Oh man, I'm glad I'm not the only one to catch that, and your response is hilarious.

 

[S&W 910]

I have no respect for bounty hunters.

The tactics most bounty hunters use and the way they treat family members of their targets should not be allowed.They should be held to the same standards of real law enforcement officers imo


If a bounty hunter knocks on my door i would answer no questions and tell them to __ off

They try to come in,thats what the rock river 223 is for

 

[DMF]

It was a wrong address and we were very polite but the people refused to cooperate. We just wanted to show them our flyer in case it was the wrong address --it was his mothers last known address. We called in the police and the people refused to open the door for the police officer so he told us to kick it in. Our boy was not there and the police officer wished them a nice day with a friendly remind to cooperate with anyone with a warrant. They refused to come to the door, despite our calls of having a warrant and the Sheriff's Deputy demand to at least answer the door and look at the flyer.

Well either this story is a fantasy of your imagination, or the Deputy was a complete idiot, and you're both lucky you didn't get sued and/or prosecuted.

An arrest warrant only allows entry into the primary residence of the suspect, and entries into the residence of a third party may only be made based on probable cause to believe the suspect is actually in that residence at the time of entry. Depending on the circumstances a separate search warrant to search for "the body" of the suspect in the residence may be necessary.

You and the real cops cannot legally break down a door just to demand the occupants look at your "flyer."

How do I know? I've actually worked fugitive cases. The most recent being a child molester who got out of jail for a mere 10% of his actual bond. He "skipped" and went on to hurt other kids before the real cops tracked him down and brought him to justice. People like you and your boss enabled him, and other fugitives I've helped arrest, to go out and hurt more people.

 

[brerrabbit]

I gotta go with DMF on pretty much every point he has made. He is much more verbose than I am and has raised some extremely valid points.

You are effectively the reason a bail bondsman can stay in business.

You guys are the reason why bail for most crimes is unreasonable. Removing bail bondsman would force the courts to reduce it to a constitutional level. You are not a required service in the grand scheme of things.

Considering that you have already admitted to working with some folks in the bounty hunter field that have done some bad stuff to innocent people, I am already figuring you for one of them, if not now, but in the probable near future. It sounds like a field already filled with people about a half step away from prison like the people they pursue.

I do have to say that any police department that authorized a dynamic entry for a bounty hunter without a judges warrant or probable cause would be in for a world of hurt. I can guarantee that I would do my best to take away even their birthdays if it happened to me.

 

[Biker]

Okay, let's say that there were no bounty hunters. Guy skips bail and no one really goes after him. Is this better?
BTW, Murdock offered to answer questions - not be attacked. You seem to be a bit irrational and emotional about this subject, DMF.
Unless you're trying to get the thread closed, how about showing a little more courtesy?

Biker

 

[Autolycus]

^^^^

Agree with Biker. The man was trying to be nice but all of you just jumped down his throat and thumped your chest about how if anybody kicks your door in they are in for a world of hurt.

Look at S&W 910's post to prove my point.

 

[ilbob]

2nd, no one said everyone arrested is guilty. However, when the judge sets a bail that amount is supposed to be large enough that the DEFENDANT, not the bail bondsman, will have an incentive to be in court. The bail bonds business allows those people to get out of jail for a fraction (usually only 10%) of the actual bail, and therefore at a much lower financial risk to themselves. Because the defendant has a much lower financial risk, it increases the chance they will not comply with the conditions of their bail.

I am not sure that is true. The bottom line is the bail bondsman is risking his capital. He does not care whether the guy rots in jail or not. He is betting that the people he bonds out will show up for trial, and his profit motive is not going to let him take unnecessary risks with his own money. The defendnats know that if they skip, nasty things will happen to them.

My guess is that for common criminals, it is probably more likely they show up when bonded out through a bail bondsman.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

What I don't understand is...

I don't understand why people say that bounty hunters need a warrant from a judge? If someone was arrested and is on bail, they already had a warrant issued. It's like what if someone is escaping from prison. Do the prison guards just say, "Let him run. We first need to go to the judge to get a second arrest warrant." They then call the police. The police say, "We can't do anything. We first need to talk to the judge and then we can do something." The person on bail also signed legal contracts to get out in the first place, so what the bounty hunter is doing is legal. Maybe if someone came to my house and said that he was a bounty hunter, I wouldn't let him in because anyone could pretend to be doing that. But if he had the police (in uniform) come over to verify, then it would be stupid not to let either of them in. It would be better to just let the LE and bounty hunter come in and bring legal action against them later (if they do it in an unlawful and excessive force way) than getting into a physical confrontation and getting into legal trouble myself.

I also don't understand why some say that they would be legally justified in shooting a bounty hunter, especially in Florida. The laws in most states, even stand your ground, say that you can use deadly force to stop or prevent the "UNLAWFUL" use of deadly force against yourself. If you're a rapist being captured by a bounty hunter with a bench warrant, what the bounty hunter is doing isn't unlawful. If a bounty hunter breaks through your door with a LE in uniform by his side, then coming swiftly into your locked house isn't unlawful if they have exhausted professionalism and exercising LE authority to get in.

In the case where he kicked down the door, he didn't say that they knew for sure the guy wasn't in there, he said that it was the last known address for his mother. Without having hindsight bias, the loose criminal may or may not have been in there and the homeowner was refusing to verify the fact with the LE present. The greater good had to be accomplished and so the LE officer told him just to kick the door down. There's a difference between unreasonable force and people just being stupid with LE.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

sometimes

cops resent them because they can do things cops can't.
And no real criminal wants to jump . You need the bondsman next time you get caught. Its the amateurs who jump bailand then moms house is toast unless they get brought back. At one time i had such a good relationship with loveless bonding he'd take my check and if someone didn't show my house. i would warn anyone i signed for that i would bring their corpse in if they ran on a bond i secured.
perverse as it sounds there are still professional "crooks" and they conside the bail man part of the buisness

 

[springmom]

ROTFL!!!

And for the states that don't even allow that, I use harsh language and idol threats.

"Come out with your hands up or the effing golden calf is gonna get it!" *Slapping knee*

Hilarious!!!! Thanks for the laugh of the day.

And thanks to the OP for this thread. Interesting info, but I have to say I'm glad I live in Texas where you can't do your thing withough LE. Sorry, but what you're describing just has waaaaaayyyyyy too much leeway in it for too many guys that you yourself describe as being marginal in their ethics and backgrounds.

Springmom

 

[Superpsy]

"Come out with your hands up or the effing golden calf is gonna get it!" *Slapping knee*

.38 special you made my day. My wife is looking at me like I'm crazy cuz of me laughing at the computer screen.

 

[Don Gwinn]

and no real criminal wants to jump you need him next time. its the amateurs who jump and then moms house is toast unless they get brought back. at one time i had such a good relationship with loveless bonding he'd take my check and if someone didn't show my house. i would warn anyone i signed for that i would bring their corpse in if they ran on a bond i secured.
__________________

Uhhhhhhh . . . . OK.
That doesn't . . . you know. . . make any sense.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

sorry don

went back and tried to clear it up my fault trying to multitask at 120% of my limited ability

 

[DMF]

Biker, please step back into the real world.

I've been rational in all my critiques of the bail bonds business, and bounty hunters. Further to claim I'm not being courteous enough and/or trying to get the thread closed is laughable. I've endured MUCH more harsh criticism, and often outright insults, directed at me personally and my profession in general, on threads I merely responded to, not subjects I raised.

So let's not pretend I'm out of line with tone and tenor of discussions on this forum, and let's not pretend the original poster didn't open this topic for discussion, including criticism of his business.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

When we knock on the door and declare we have a warrant, please greet us at the door. A "go away" from your couch isn't gonna help either of us and might result in you needing to replace your front door...

You don't have a warrant for me and there aren't any crimnals or bail skippers here, so if I tell you to go away and you decide to kick in the front door ... your widow is going to be buying me a new door.

I do not have any responsibility whatsoever to help you. I might do so because I feel like it that day, or I might not want to be bothered. There's no law that says I have to give you the time of day.

I don't have any affinity for bail jumpers, and if you choose to earn a living by tracking them down, that's your choice and I wish you the best. But don't make the mistake of thinking that I have any duty to help you, and don't make a mistake in whose door you bust down.

 

[DMF]

. . . and thumped your chest about how if anybody kicks your door in they are in for a world of hurt.

Well that's what many say about cops serving warrants too, so why would you expect a different reaction when talking about bounty hunters?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I don't understand why people say that bounty hunters need a warrant from a judge? If someone was arrested and is on bail, they already had a warrant issued. It's like what if someone is escaping from prison. Do the prison guards just say, "Let him run. We first need to go to the judge to get a second arrest warrant." They then call the police. The police say, "We can't do anything. We first need to talk to the judge and then we can do something." The person on bail also signed legal contracts to get out in the first place, so what the bounty hunter is doing is legal. Maybe if someone came to my house and said that he was a bounty hunter, I wouldn't let him in because anyone could pretend to be doing that. But if he had the police (in uniform) come over to verify, then it would be stupid not to let either of them in. It would be better to just let the LE and bounty hunter come in and bring legal action against them later (if they do it in an unlawful and excessive force way) than getting into a physical confrontation and getting into legal trouble myself.

The fact that the individual is out on bail gives a recovery agent a right to arrest the jumper ... if/when/where he finds him. It is an arrestwarrant, not a search warrant. It doesn't give the recovery agent any right to enter my house, your house, or the jumper's ex-mother-in-law's house because someone told someone who told the agent that the jumper might have stayed there last week.

I also don't understand why some say that they would be legally justified in shooting a bounty hunter, especially in Florida. The laws in most states, even stand your ground, say that you can use deadly force to stop or prevent the "UNLAWFUL" use of deadly force against yourself. If you're a rapist being captured by a bounty hunter with a bench warrant, what the bounty hunter is doing isn't unlawful.

If the bounty hunter properly identifies him/herself, then you're correct. If they just walk up and grab you, they're just another assailant.

If a bounty hunter breaks through your door with a LE in uniform by his side, then coming swiftly into your locked house isn't unlawful if they have exhausted professionalism and exercising LE authority to get in.

Not unless one of them has a search warrant. And I don't think courts issue search warrants to recovery agents, so the LEO has to have a search warrant specifying the precise premises to be searched and the specific item or items to be searched for, or he has no justification for sticking his big toe through the door.

In the case where he kicked down the door, he didn't say that they knew for sure the guy wasn't in there, he said that it was the last known address for his mother. Without having hindsight bias, the loose criminal may or may not have been in there and the homeowner was refusing to verify the fact with the LE present. The greater good had to be accomplished and so the LE officer told him just to kick the door down. There's a difference between unreasonable force and people just being stupid with LE.

If the story was true, the LEO acted wrongly. No search warrant = no right of entry, even if the homeowner declines to answer the door or even speaks harshly to the person or persons on the outside. Remember that pesky Constitution? "The People shall be secure in their homes and in their persons against unreasonable search and seizure." Your notion of "the greater good" does not provide justification for violating the Constitution. Sorry.

 

[DMF]

In the case where he kicked down the door, he didn't say that they knew for sure the guy wasn't in there, he said that it was the last known address for his mother. Without having hindsight bias, the loose criminal may or may not have been in there and the homeowner was refusing to verify the fact with the LE present. The greater good had to be accomplished and so the LE officer told him just to kick the door down. There's a difference between unreasonable force and people just being stupid with LE.

Again, there must be PROBABLE CAUSE to believe the person is actually in the residence to make a forced entry into the home of a third party to arrest a fugitive. In case you're curious no court in the country will consider the house merely being the last known address of a relative probable cause to believe the fugitive is actually in the residence.

It not a question of knowing "for sure the guy wasn't there." It's about having probable cause to believe he IS there.

As described the forced entry into that residence was NOT legal.

 

[HMMurdock]

Don't Hate the Player. Hate the Game.

First of all, I expected to get verbally attacked. Like police officers, thats an everyday part of my job. Sticks and stones...

second-- the golden calf-- Hilarious. I'm a college educated man and I can't believe I misspelled it... oh well, live and learn.

As for said house that we made entry on, the bench warrant has the person's address on it so we did have legal reason to go in. However, that information was nearing a year old and I don't automatically guess the person still lives there-- especially after skipping. And we have legal right to make no-knock (not a good idea) entry in such circumstances especially when there is probable cause. Refusal to talk to us is probable cause. Fight it all you want, thats how the law reads. At least in many states...

Hate the bail system all you want. Next time you get picked up for having one too many at the bar youll be happy the system is in place. And don't get mad at me, I'm bringing the guys BACK. I'm not the one that released them in the first place. Don't hate the player, hate the game

Everyone keeps threatening to shoot me for doing my job and coming to your door. You know what? If you aren't harboring a fugitive then you have nothing to worry about because I ALWAYS bring in the police at the request of whomever I'm speaking with. I am unaware of a state where you don't first have to warn the person standing on your porch that just knocked on your door before you kill them. At which time I'll gladly show my identification, assuming it isn't already visible (I always wear visible ID when approaching a house). Still want me to leave? Okay, but I'm gonna take two steps off your property and call in the police. I knock on your door and you tell me to f*** off, then you can tell that to the police and see what they say.

And you seem to be suspecting we aren't armed. And empty your AR-15 all you want, you're going to have to face the police when the shooting is over and your goose is fried if your brother that was visiting from out of town has his face on our warrant and you didnt know it. Take my life and you better bury my body. That is assuming you get me first.

I always notify the police before I serve a warrant on a house. So if youre accosted by recovery agents-- feel free to call in the police. I don't mind and neither should they. I'm a recovery agent and even I would request the presence of police. Although I'll warn you, they almost always have us do the work and they "supervise".

I had a guy in a house that claimed to be armed once and he refused to come out. We called in the police and said it was our warrant so we should serve it (I kid you not). We did. No shots were fired. I have yet to seriously hurt anyone in my business and I hope I don't have to.

I agree there should be more regulations on who gets licensed. I would happily subject myself to any certifications I need and any additional training. I train with police officers all the time and I could use a few more formal things on my resume, anyway...

We enforce laws but we are not law enforcement officers. And anyone in the business even semi-professional wears identification like reflective raid jackets when raiding a house and clearly announces their presence before, during, and even after the arrest has been made.

Hate us all you want, we are gonna be here as long as the bail system is around. Don't like it? Call a congressman. --Then regret it when you get picked up for something minor and have to spend a month in County.

If anyone is not put off by the disrespect we get and wants to look into it, contact a local bondsman and ask what they require. It varies from bondsman to bondsman and especially state to state.

And enough with the threats, guys (Watch-- they'll keep rolling in, I'm sure...). Unless you are harboring a fugitive, a simple "I don't know the guy" is all it takes. If we have proof --PROOF-- you are lying, we might ask nicely at first but we and/or the police will make entry, whichever you prefer. If he isn't there and you were cooperative with us and the police, then you have yourself a nice lawsuit so congratulations.

Laws vary state to state, so I am only speaking on my experience with the few states I've been in, mostly Indiana. Some states give us incredible leeway and others are very restrictive. And we don't operate the same in every state, so "well if you come into my house" sounds ignorant and it is. It is our responsibility to know the law and we usually do. So, if we break the law, stick it to us. :banghead:

Indiana is more restrictive than some. Some states just require resonable suspicison for us to make entry. You might take our lives in the process, but bury us before the cops get there or you're going away for a long time. So it might be a good idea to figure out who you are shooting at before you pull a Jed Clampett and shoot your shotgun at the first movement outside. I am somewhat appauled by the wanton taking of life you people are claiming to endorse... an armed robber and a recovery agent with a warrant might be hard to identify, but legally you have to. To make it easier for you we usually wear badges and proper identification and declare our presence... I'm not aware of too many crack heads that afford the same. And if you aren't harboring anyone and your address isn't on a warrent, then don't worry. But you never know if your best friend at the dinner table has skipped and forgot to tel you. Legally, you are harboring a fugitive and legally, it is our responsibility to arrest him.

Don't blame me for the politically correct world we live in...

TRL

 

[HMMurdock]

Post Script

No charges were filed against us or the Sheriff Deupty that helped serve the warrant because it was legal in that state because we had a warrant for that address, specifically, and she was refusing command of the law enforcement officer. I have no hard feelings against the homeowner for being scared and legally, we were cleared. End of story.

It may be a gray area and yes, I do regret that night but there is nothing I can do about it now.

And a "thank you" to those of you giving me an opportunity to explain my profession and those chiming in with their own experience. And to those threatening my life, what can I say? I'm just trying to do my job. Would you prefer these people stay on the street?

TRL

 

[tellner]

It's not so much the bail recovery business that scares people. It's the idea that someone other than a law enforcement officer can invade their castle and offer violence to them because someone's paying him to recover two-legged property.

The bail system is one of the country's fundamental strengths. It's good that we have it. There must be people who enforce it or it will be abused. We could certainly argue how much regulation and oversight there needs to be. Obviously, if people are authorized to use force against others the safeguards for the innocent need to be stringent.

Those of us who do not harbor fugitives are a little upset at the idea of people breaking into their homes to make a day's pay. So we react with a tad of hostility to the concept. Most seem to be saying "It's a dirty job. I'm glad someone else is doing it. If you break into my house with guns and aren't a cop I'll assume you're just another criminal no matter who you say signs your paychecks." This isn't an unreasonable philosophy.