Automatic press

[twarr1]

More affordable than the Keyence one I was looking at that’s $300. But the Keyence one will easily read inside a 30 cal case

 

[Mark_Mark]

More affordable than the Keyence one I was looking at that’s $300. But the Keyence one will easily read inside a 30 cal case

that measuring tape has everything: laser, receiver, display, power! why over thing it when they already did the work

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'd lean toward one of the Mark 7s for home use.

The nice thing about that lineup is that they have an add-on module for feeding primers. You don't have to fill tubes, you just pour the primers into the module and it correctly orients them and feeds them through the system.

The other reason I prefer the Mark 7 system is that it has 10-stations, so all functions can be separated out...you won't be compromising any operation...that the press is gear driven is just an added plus

 

[lordpaxman]

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/setting-up-my-mark-vii-revolutions.904234

This lucky &&^^%%$$ is setting up two Mk7s. Color me green….

 

[edwardware]

. . . and not have to be sitting there pulling a lever. What should I get?

If you mean, "fully engaged, paying attention, visually verifying the process steps" then a progressive press with all the feeders and an autodrive will do.

If you mean, "set it up and walk away" please stay off my range, because you're going to make an ash of yourself. Automated processes are more work to control and assure (QC and QA) than manual processes, not less.

Safely operating a manual progressive press takes double the concentration of a single stage; moving to an autodrive press will require an order more attention paid to setup and verification.

It sounds to me like you're trying to shortcut paying attention; the only safe shortcut is to buy off the shelf ammo.

 

[jmorris]

Programmable Logic Controller! this brings me back to college!

This is the one I used, they have gone up to $85 now.

https://www.automationdirect.com/ad.../click_plcs_(stackable_micro_brick)/plc_units

Yes. It is. Working on it. That’s why I asked about your homemade powder check. I was thinking more along the lines of a confocal laser.

The Dillon powder check had an arbor that drops inside the case and is fairly sensitive. When stepped cases came along, the powder check would catch the small change in internal case volume.




The only thing I have used laser for is if I am forced to use a bullet dropper vs feed/seat at the same station. If the tip of a bullet isn’t present before it starts the seating operation, the machine stops.

 

[jmorris]

If you mean, "set it up and walk away" please stay off my range, because you're going to make an ash of yourself. Automated processes are more work to control and assure (QC and QA) than manual processes, not less.

More work to construct and maintain but the point is to remove human error. I can count on one hand the number of folks whom I would shoot their reloads but I know what my automated press is allowed to turn out and what will stop it.

That’s like saying an automatic transmission is more work than a manual. We have lots of machines, intended to remove US from the process as much as possible. Almost no one owns wash boards and close lines these days.

It’s not rocket science just a series of processes, that are done in order.

Of course being setup for specific set of variables causes problems if objects outside the window come into play. Garbage in/garbage out.

So my processes start before loading, like this machine I built to eliminate a stray piece of the wrong caliber brass failing to get culled out by hand sorting.




Or this machine that eliminates putting in brass with the incorrect primer pocket into a machine.



Both do a better job than I did, I didn’t miss many but 1 incorrect case puts you at full stop.

 

[Mark_Mark]

This is the one I used, they have gone up to $85 now.

https://www.automationdirect.com/ad.../click_plcs_(stackable_micro_brick)/plc_units



The Dillon powder check had an arbor that drops inside the case and is fairly sensitive. When stepped cases came along, the powder check would catch the small change in internal case volume.




The only thing I have used laser for is if I am forced to use a bullet dropper vs feed/seat at the same station. If the tip of a bullet isn’t present before it starts the seating operation, the machine stops.

cool use of laser! reminds me of a garage door sensor. I want to shove this into a die and see if can measure the powder in the case.

 

[jmorris]

Good luck, +/- 3mm is getting close to a quarter inch. That wouldn’t be sensitive enough for my needs.

 

[edwardware]

That’s like saying an automatic transmission is more work than a manual.

I think that's a bad analogy. . . An auto transmission has fewer user inputs, but an autodrive press has the same number of inputs as a manual, but each is much easier to fail to notice.

A better analogy is driving down the road (the way you drive a car) vs driving in a partially autonomous vehicle that only requires input when something (rarely) starts to go wrong. . . you aren't constantly engaged so you're much more likely to miss it.

 

[The Glockodile]

Interesting...

 

[jmorris]

I think that's a bad analogy. . . An auto transmission has fewer user inputs, but an autodrive press has the same number of inputs as a manual, but each is much easier to fail to notice.

A better analogy is driving down the road (the way you drive a car) vs driving in a partially autonomous vehicle that only requires input when something (rarely) starts to go wrong. . . you aren't constantly engaged so you're much more likely to miss it.

I would say I am not engaged with the machine at all. If the machine is stopped, I look at the display. It’s tells me why it stopped. The most common reason is it has used up the primers. I add another 100, scoop of bullets and a scoop of brass and hit the button again.

This part is no different than my manual machines.



The machine itself knows if it moves all the way to the top and bottom of stroke, within the allowable torque limits, if the powder charge is within a very narrow allowable range, primers are available, bullet is correctly in place, etc.

If it is making noise (running), and making ammunition that passes my post loading QC, it doesn’t need my attention to do it’s job. Did you see the video I posted in #19?

I think having the machine “smart” is very important, you can’t just chunk a motor on one and hope for the best.

 

[EricBu]

Ok, hypothetical question, but maybe not:
Let's say I have some disposable income, no limit, and I want to buy an automatic loading press. Not concerned about rds/hr rate, I just want to load it up with brass, bullets, powder, primers, and not have to be sitting there pulling a lever. What should I get?

Lol, I spent an entire year researching this very question before I got brave enough to pull the trigger. I also approached with "Two is one, one is none", which also may not be an overriding factor for you. I posted on multiple forums, and there was very few that were willing to post any type of comparison between the different presses, or had experience with more than one. I did get into a few offline conversations with folks.

First, as others have stated, the more automated, the more complex the set up and tuning, and the more complex it is to change calibers, especially if that requires a primer size changeover too. In addition to that, the absolutely more critical your PM will become. There is no such thing as fire and forget loading. No matter how much money you throw at equipment, somebody needs to be monitoring it. You've got to take care of these machines and be very procedure oriented when starting a run, because at 2 or 3 thousand rounds an hour, when something goes wrong, it goes really wrong really fast. Think in terms of something like this happening (real story from somebody I talked too): Lot started on a press and was running for a while (I don't remember which type of press this was, but I think it was an older Evolution or Revolution). Using the offload configuration so output is into a 5 gallon bucket. Operator keeping powder measure and primer collator full during run. Operator get's called over for something, get's sidetracked......comes back over, press is still running.....powder measure is empty. Operator had not checked that the sensors were enabled. So neither the powder check, nor the powder measure sensor popped and stopped machine. So 5 Gallon bucket with 3 or 4K rounds.......which ones have no powder?

My answer was two Mark Vii Revolutions. Cliff notes on why:

Dillon:
Dillon's don't have enough stations for me.
Automated Dillon has to be built, can't get it as a full supported unit. And when I priced out a drive, controller, all the sensors, it was close enough that it wasn't worth living without those extra stations or support.
Dillons still need primer tubes. I'm soooo done with primer tubes. IDGAF if I can buy a stand alone collator and prefill tubes automatically. Still stuck with tubes, and still stuck on basically a 100 round cycle.
Note: Dillon was my automatic go to, I really really wanted Dillon to work for me. Just couldn't make it work.

Camdex:
Camdex would not guarantee a powder drop variance of .1 grains, which both Dillon and Mark Vii will. In my research and talking to people who owned and ran them, they saw a variance of .4 to .7 depending on powder type, with one guy I talked to claiming .1.
Camdex machines are Twice as expensive, and caliber changes are 3x as expensive. About 30K for the machine, and about 3K for a caliber change. Caliber changes are also far more time consuming.

Ammoland.:
Sent about 10 emails to their customer service, tried to call, etc. Never got a reply or return call. Not as much info in the wild on them, but from what I could gather they are somewhere between the Revolution and Camdex machines in price and capability. Couldn't ever really dial that in though since nobody ever talked to me.

Other:
Random old automated tooling floating around the world exists in surprisingly large numbers. If you are a machinist, and have a shop on hand, this would likely be the way to go. I'm not, so is not feasible for me to buy some of these older machines. Which is a bummer, because if you look hard and search hard, there are some amazing deals.

Mark Vii:
Early on, during the height of Covid, I had a hard time getting ahold of someone. Not a big deal, every single company in America was experiencing that. Then too save money I inititally considered getting two Apex presses. I did get a lot of feedback on the Apex from a few boards, and for my purposes, the priming system was just not yet there. As Covid starting winding down, I got contacted by folks from Mark Vii, and were able to get a good understanding of their Revolutions. Between offline conversations I had with other Revolution owners, and Mark Vii's sales pitch, I was convinced enough to drop the coin. I am not regretting it at all. These machines are magnificent to behold. The fit and finish is top notch, all CNC machined billet, just beautiful. I'm still getting them set up, time is a factor for me with this, not Mark Vii. These machines are about the closest you can get to "dump in bullets, brass, powder, and primers...GO!" at their price point.

One hint though: If you order one, and want to do 9mm, 38/357, or .380, request that they include the small output assembly in addition to the standard output assembly. That will save you a couple of hours of "***" messing with the Mr. Bullet Feeder. The reason: the smaller bullets in those calibers (110 JHP, 90 FN, stuff like that, some folks call them "square bullets") flip sideways and jam in the standard output assembly.

 

[Hugger-4641]

I think that's a bad analogy. . . An auto transmission has fewer user inputs, but an autodrive press has the same number of inputs as a manual, but each is much easier to fail to notice.

A better analogy is driving down the road (the way you drive a car) vs driving in a partially autonomous vehicle that only requires input when something (rarely) starts to go wrong. . . you aren't constantly engaged so you're much more likely to miss it.

I appreciate your view and concerns. This will not be an "unattended" process, but he can't sit there with it every minute, so I will have to make sure there are redundant safety and QC controls
I've been working with automated equipment all my life, you might even be driving a car or using a gun that I had a part in the manufacturing and quality control.
I have no intention of turning over a machine to someone that is going to make handgrenades.
I have enough experience with redundant systems and intrinsically safe components and design that I think I can fill in any gaps with my own improvements and QC methods.
As far as rifle rounds, especially the two he wants to load, I've never seen a powder/bullet combo that would even allow much of any overcharge without being compressed, and I've already got some ideas for QC of powder charge.
Pistol rounds are a different matter, but the solutions will probably be similar. We'll see where it goes.


Thank you Jmorris for your replies and suggestions.
I happen to be proficient installing and programming all series of Allen Bradley, Mitsubishi, and Quantum/Modicon PLC and have some experience with a couple others like Omron, Siemens, and Toyopuc. Accordingly, I am also experienced with lasers, encoders, resolvers, ultrasonic, linear transducers, and just about any other field I/O device you can think of.
I like your idea of a laser for checking case fill and seating depth. I think that I could also add a pre- and post-process scale system and part tracking logic as a redundant QC control. If he can swing the $, I've got a few ideas for adding a small six axis Fanuc or Yaskawa.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Lol, I spent an entire year researching this very question before I got brave enough to pull the trigger. I also approached with "Two is one, one is none", which also may not be an overriding factor for you. I posted on multiple forums, and there was very few that were willing to post any type of comparison between the different presses, or had experience with more than one. I did get into a few offline conversations with folks.

First, as others have stated, the more automated, the more complex the set up and tuning, and the more complex it is to change calibers, especially if that requires a primer size changeover too. In addition to that, the absolutely more critical your PM will become. There is no such thing as fire and forget loading. No matter how much money you throw at equipment, somebody needs to be monitoring it. You've got to take care of these machines and be very procedure oriented when starting a run, because at 2 or 3 thousand rounds an hour, when something goes wrong, it goes really wrong really fast. Think in terms of something like this happening (real story from somebody I talked too): Lot started on a press and was running for a while (I don't remember which type of press this was, but I think it was an older Evolution or Revolution). Using the offload configuration so output is into a 5 gallon bucket. Operator keeping powder measure and primer collator full during run. Operator get's called over for something, get's sidetracked......comes back over, press is still running.....powder measure is empty. Operator had not checked that the sensors were enabled. So neither the powder check, nor the powder measure sensor popped and stopped machine. So 5 Gallon bucket with 3 or 4K rounds.......which ones have no powder?

My answer was two Mark Vii Revolutions. Cliff notes on why:

Dillon:
Dillon's don't have enough stations for me.
Automated Dillon has to be built, can't get it as a full supported unit. And when I priced out a drive, controller, all the sensors, it was close enough that it wasn't worth living without those extra stations or support.
Dillons still need primer tubes. I'm soooo done with primer tubes. IDGAF if I can buy a stand alone collator and prefill tubes automatically. Still stuck with tubes, and still stuck on basically a 100 round cycle.
Note: Dillon was my automatic go to, I really really wanted Dillon to work for me. Just couldn't make it work.

Camdex:
Camdex would not guarantee a powder drop variance of .1 grains, which both Dillon and Mark Vii will. In my research and talking to people who owned and ran them, they saw a variance of .4 to .7 depending on powder type, with one guy I talked to claiming .1.
Camdex machines are Twice as expensive, and caliber changes are 3x as expensive. About 30K for the machine, and about 3K for a caliber change. Caliber changes are also far more time consuming.

Ammoland.:
Sent about 10 emails to their customer service, tried to call, etc. Never got a reply or return call. Not as much info in the wild on them, but from what I could gather they are somewhere between the Revolution and Camdex machines in price and capability. Couldn't ever really dial that in though since nobody ever talked to me.

Other:
Random old automated tooling floating around the world exists in surprisingly large numbers. If you are a machinist, and have a shop on hand, this would likely be the way to go. I'm not, so is not feasible for me to buy some of these older machines. Which is a bummer, because if you look hard and search hard, there are some amazing deals.

Mark Vii:
Early on, during the height of Covid, I had a hard time getting ahold of someone. Not a big deal, every single company in America was experiencing that. Then too save money I inititally considered getting two Apex presses. I did get a lot of feedback on the Apex from a few boards, and for my purposes, the priming system was just not yet there. As Covid starting winding down, I got contacted by folks from Mark Vii, and were able to get a good understanding of their Revolutions. Between offline conversations I had with other Revolution owners, and Mark Vii's sales pitch, I was convinced enough to drop the coin. I am not regretting it at all. These machines are magnificent to behold. The fit and finish is top notch, all CNC machined billet, just beautiful. I'm still getting them set up, time is a factor for me with this, not Mark Vii. These machines are about the closest you can get to "dump in bullets, brass, powder, and primers...GO!" at their price point.

One hint though: If you order one, and want to do 9mm, 38/357, or .380, request that they include the small output assembly in addition to the standard output assembly. That will save you a couple of hours of "***" messing with the Mr. Bullet Feeder. The reason: the smaller bullets in those calibers (110 JHP, 90 FN, stuff like that, some folks call them "square bullets") flip sideways and jam in the standard output assembly.

Thanks for the response Ericbu !
As long as he has the $, I'm in for the simplest route.
But I'm also a fairly proficient machinist, so making old or obsolete equipment work again is in my wheelhouse.
I know nothing of this equipment though, do you have any preference or suggestions for older equipment sources?

 

[Mark_Mark]

I appreciate your view and concerns. This will not be an "unattended" process, but he can't sit there with it every minute, so I will have to make sure there are redundant safety and QC controls
I've been working with automated equipment all my life, you might even be driving a car or using a gun that I had a part in the manufacturing and quality control.
I have no intention of turning over a machine to someone that is going to make handgrenades.
I have enough experience with redundant systems and intrinsically safe components and design that I think I can fill in any gaps with my own improvements and QC methods.
As far as rifle rounds, especially the two he wants to load, I've never seen a powder/bullet combo that would even allow much of any overcharge without being compressed, and I've already got some ideas for QC of powder charge.
Pistol rounds are a different matter, but the solutions will probably be similar. We'll see where it goes.


Thank you Jmorris for your replies and suggestions.
I happen to be proficient installing and programming all series of Allen Bradley, Mitsubishi, and Quantum/Modicon PLC and have some experience with a couple others like Omron, Siemens, and Toyopuc. Accordingly, I am also experienced with lasers, encoders, resolvers, ultrasonic, linear transducers, and just about any other field I/O device you can think of.
I like your idea of a laser for checking case fill and seating depth. I think that I could also add a pre- and post-process scale system and part tracking logic as a redundant QC control. If he can swing the $, I've got a few ideas for adding small a six axis Fanuc or Yaskawa.

LASER! I win

 

[jmorris]

Operator get's called over for something, get's sidetracked......comes back over, press is still running.....powder measure is empty. Operator had not checked that the sensors were enabled.

That sounds like a great reason to not allow them to be disabled, maybe a momentary push button “override” would be a better choice as it could not inadvertently disable a safety system.

Even on my manual machines, I always check the systems that alert me to problems before I start. Or one could have the same issue as automated equipment with no functional systems.

 

[EricBu]

Thanks for the response Ericbu !
As long as he has the $, I'm in for the simplest route.
But I'm also a fairly proficient machinist, so making old or obsolete equipment work again is in my wheelhouse.
I know nothing of this equipment though, do you have any preference or suggestions for older equipment sources?

Yeah, I see you obviously got some skills with sensor programming, and automation, if you have machinist skills too, you are a god amongst men and have far more options than mere mortals. My own automation is something I considered cobbling a Pi w/ breadboard to the various modules, and cobbling my own sensors and controller base. Did help a buddy many eons ago build an automated brewing system that used linux on a tower with multiple serial ports to run the solenoids for all the valving, the burner, and such for each step of the brew process, and of course back in college I built the obligatory linux mr. coffee. A reloading press would actually be simpler now I think, but my problem is time (well that and I'd have to relearn about a million things). Time is killing me. Anywhoooo, to your question...there is no real rhyme or reason to what you find out there. There is a lot of stuff that was fabricated for a specific company that went defunct.....or things taken offline by big companies that ended up on Ebay. I came across a complete machine that was built by Winchester I believe, in the 70s. Taken off line, and stored in a garage for years, that was the equivalent of a Camdex machine right there, even complete and functioning. It was like a thousand bucks or something ridiculous. Lot of old police depart loading machines floating around too. It's really about how much time you want to spend searching for these kind of things. If you are interested in finding an old commercial machine that you can ressurect and modify, I'd search Ebay, GB, GI, and GA. And keep your eyes out at local equipment auctions. I think the most I came across was either word of mouth and Ebay.

 

[jmorris]

I know nothing of this equipment though, do you have any preference or suggestions for older equipment sources?

Two things I feel are important are a swage station to ensure all pockets are ready for a primer and positive depth primer seating. Most all of the inexpensive presses are “seat by feel” for primers the Loadmaster being the only exception, I know of, but it has no swage station and otherwise a poor choice for automation.

If you are talking about machines like the Camdex/Ammoload, I know people employed, full time, to keep them running as are the operators that use them all day, everyday.

 

[EricBu]

That sounds like a great reason to not allow them to be disabled, maybe a momentary push button “override” would be a better choice as it could not inadvertently disable a safety system.

Even on my manual machines, I always check the systems that alert me to problems before I start. Or one could have the same issue as automated equipment with no functional systems.

Yes, and I verify too. But in this case......was an employee (so in my mind, bad leadership and a task/condition/standard training failure by leadership, but that's just me). I am not yet familiar with the interface on my Revolution to know if you can permanently set it keeping the sensors on with "one time" over ride. But then again, it's a droid based tablet. I wonder if their app has a functional API, this stuff could be managed that way if so.

 

[jmorris]

I don’t have their latest update but in my Mark 7 software the features are “toggled” on or off. Placing the burden of remembering on the human.

On the one I built, I must manually override the powder check sensor that is trying to stop the machine, each cycle until a case reaches that station, for example, when starting from an empty shell plate.

On the Mark 7, you disable the sensor and must enable it again once ready.

 

[EricBu]

I don’t have their latest update but in my Mark 7 software the features are “toggled” on or off. Placing the burden of remembering on the human. I must manually override the one I built, each cycle until the shell plate is full.

Yep, that's exactly what I'm doing right now while I'm getting mine set up. I think once I have both mine up and running, and things settle down, I'm going to buy a replacement tablet controller from them and poke at it a bit. Would be nice if their app has a functional API. Put that sucker on the network with some cams on the equipment, and cobble up some notifications to phone and such. Then we can go even further with other mods. Build a support rack around it with big drums of brass, powder, bullets, and primers. Pull round count from the API to control simple solenoids on those to refill the machine hoppers. Your limit would be the size of the container your offload dumps into.

 

[Hugger-4641]

, if you have machinist skills too, you are a god amongst men and have far more options than mere mortals.

Lol , not quite, I like to tell people I'm a " jack of all trades, master of some".

I remember playing with breadboard and making 555's years ago! These days we don't do much at the board level, but I think I could still hook up my O'scope and make a board if I needed to

 

[edwardware]

I've been working with automated equipment all my life. . . I have enough experience with redundant systems and intrinsically safe components and design. . .

Outstanding! I withdraw my previous tone.

This question is often posed by people who have no concept of Design for Reliability and process control. That you do puts you in the small group of well prepared users.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Lol , not quite, I like to tell people I'm a " jack of all trades, master of some".

I remember playing with breadboard and making 555's years ago! These days we don't do much at the board level, but I think I could still hook up my O'scope and make a board if I needed to

bunch of nerds! lol