twarr1
Member
More affordable than the Keyence one I was looking at that’s $300. But the Keyence one will easily read inside a 30 cal case
that measuring tape has everything: laser, receiver, display, power! why over thing it when they already did the workMore affordable than the Keyence one I was looking at that’s $300. But the Keyence one will easily read inside a 30 cal case
If you mean, "fully engaged, paying attention, visually verifying the process steps" then a progressive press with all the feeders and an autodrive will do.. . . and not have to be sitting there pulling a lever. What should I get?
Programmable Logic Controller! this brings me back to college!
Yes. It is. Working on it. That’s why I asked about your homemade powder check. I was thinking more along the lines of a confocal laser.
If you mean, "set it up and walk away" please stay off my range, because you're going to make an ash of yourself. Automated processes are more work to control and assure (QC and QA) than manual processes, not less.
This is the one I used, they have gone up to $85 now.
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad.../click_plcs_(stackable_micro_brick)/plc_units
The Dillon powder check had an arbor that drops inside the case and is fairly sensitive. When stepped cases came along, the powder check would catch the small change in internal case volume.
The only thing I have used laser for is if I am forced to use a bullet dropper vs feed/seat at the same station. If the tip of a bullet isn’t present before it starts the seating operation, the machine stops.
I think that's a bad analogy. . . An auto transmission has fewer user inputs, but an autodrive press has the same number of inputs as a manual, but each is much easier to fail to notice.That’s like saying an automatic transmission is more work than a manual.
I think that's a bad analogy. . . An auto transmission has fewer user inputs, but an autodrive press has the same number of inputs as a manual, but each is much easier to fail to notice.
A better analogy is driving down the road (the way you drive a car) vs driving in a partially autonomous vehicle that only requires input when something (rarely) starts to go wrong. . . you aren't constantly engaged so you're much more likely to miss it.
Ok, hypothetical question, but maybe not:
Let's say I have some disposable income, no limit, and I want to buy an automatic loading press. Not concerned about rds/hr rate, I just want to load it up with brass, bullets, powder, primers, and not have to be sitting there pulling a lever. What should I get?
I appreciate your view and concerns. This will not be an "unattended" process, but he can't sit there with it every minute, so I will have to make sure there are redundant safety and QC controlsI think that's a bad analogy. . . An auto transmission has fewer user inputs, but an autodrive press has the same number of inputs as a manual, but each is much easier to fail to notice.
A better analogy is driving down the road (the way you drive a car) vs driving in a partially autonomous vehicle that only requires input when something (rarely) starts to go wrong. . . you aren't constantly engaged so you're much more likely to miss it.
Lol, I spent an entire year researching this very question before I got brave enough to pull the trigger. I also approached with "Two is one, one is none", which also may not be an overriding factor for you. I posted on multiple forums, and there was very few that were willing to post any type of comparison between the different presses, or had experience with more than one. I did get into a few offline conversations with folks.
First, as others have stated, the more automated, the more complex the set up and tuning, and the more complex it is to change calibers, especially if that requires a primer size changeover too. In addition to that, the absolutely more critical your PM will become. There is no such thing as fire and forget loading. No matter how much money you throw at equipment, somebody needs to be monitoring it. You've got to take care of these machines and be very procedure oriented when starting a run, because at 2 or 3 thousand rounds an hour, when something goes wrong, it goes really wrong really fast. Think in terms of something like this happening (real story from somebody I talked too): Lot started on a press and was running for a while (I don't remember which type of press this was, but I think it was an older Evolution or Revolution). Using the offload configuration so output is into a 5 gallon bucket. Operator keeping powder measure and primer collator full during run. Operator get's called over for something, get's sidetracked......comes back over, press is still running.....powder measure is empty. Operator had not checked that the sensors were enabled. So neither the powder check, nor the powder measure sensor popped and stopped machine. So 5 Gallon bucket with 3 or 4K rounds.......which ones have no powder?
My answer was two Mark Vii Revolutions. Cliff notes on why:
Dillon:
Dillon's don't have enough stations for me.
Automated Dillon has to be built, can't get it as a full supported unit. And when I priced out a drive, controller, all the sensors, it was close enough that it wasn't worth living without those extra stations or support.
Dillons still need primer tubes. I'm soooo done with primer tubes. IDGAF if I can buy a stand alone collator and prefill tubes automatically. Still stuck with tubes, and still stuck on basically a 100 round cycle.
Note: Dillon was my automatic go to, I really really wanted Dillon to work for me. Just couldn't make it work.
Camdex:
Camdex would not guarantee a powder drop variance of .1 grains, which both Dillon and Mark Vii will. In my research and talking to people who owned and ran them, they saw a variance of .4 to .7 depending on powder type, with one guy I talked to claiming .1.
Camdex machines are Twice as expensive, and caliber changes are 3x as expensive. About 30K for the machine, and about 3K for a caliber change. Caliber changes are also far more time consuming.
Ammoland.:
Sent about 10 emails to their customer service, tried to call, etc. Never got a reply or return call. Not as much info in the wild on them, but from what I could gather they are somewhere between the Revolution and Camdex machines in price and capability. Couldn't ever really dial that in though since nobody ever talked to me.
Other:
Random old automated tooling floating around the world exists in surprisingly large numbers. If you are a machinist, and have a shop on hand, this would likely be the way to go. I'm not, so is not feasible for me to buy some of these older machines. Which is a bummer, because if you look hard and search hard, there are some amazing deals.
Mark Vii:
Early on, during the height of Covid, I had a hard time getting ahold of someone. Not a big deal, every single company in America was experiencing that. Then too save money I inititally considered getting two Apex presses. I did get a lot of feedback on the Apex from a few boards, and for my purposes, the priming system was just not yet there. As Covid starting winding down, I got contacted by folks from Mark Vii, and were able to get a good understanding of their Revolutions. Between offline conversations I had with other Revolution owners, and Mark Vii's sales pitch, I was convinced enough to drop the coin. I am not regretting it at all. These machines are magnificent to behold. The fit and finish is top notch, all CNC machined billet, just beautiful. I'm still getting them set up, time is a factor for me with this, not Mark Vii. These machines are about the closest you can get to "dump in bullets, brass, powder, and primers...GO!" at their price point.
One hint though: If you order one, and want to do 9mm, 38/357, or .380, request that they include the small output assembly in addition to the standard output assembly. That will save you a couple of hours of "***" messing with the Mr. Bullet Feeder. The reason: the smaller bullets in those calibers (110 JHP, 90 FN, stuff like that, some folks call them "square bullets") flip sideways and jam in the standard output assembly.
LASER! I winI appreciate your view and concerns. This will not be an "unattended" process, but he can't sit there with it every minute, so I will have to make sure there are redundant safety and QC controls
I've been working with automated equipment all my life, you might even be driving a car or using a gun that I had a part in the manufacturing and quality control.
I have no intention of turning over a machine to someone that is going to make handgrenades.
I have enough experience with redundant systems and intrinsically safe components and design that I think I can fill in any gaps with my own improvements and QC methods.
As far as rifle rounds, especially the two he wants to load, I've never seen a powder/bullet combo that would even allow much of any overcharge without being compressed, and I've already got some ideas for QC of powder charge.
Pistol rounds are a different matter, but the solutions will probably be similar. We'll see where it goes.
Thank you Jmorris for your replies and suggestions.
I happen to be proficient installing and programming all series of Allen Bradley, Mitsubishi, and Quantum/Modicon PLC and have some experience with a couple others like Omron, Siemens, and Toyopuc. Accordingly, I am also experienced with lasers, encoders, resolvers, ultrasonic, linear transducers, and just about any other field I/O device you can think of.
I like your idea of a laser for checking case fill and seating depth. I think that I could also add a pre- and post-process scale system and part tracking logic as a redundant QC control. If he can swing the $, I've got a few ideas for adding small a six axis Fanuc or Yaskawa.
Operator get's called over for something, get's sidetracked......comes back over, press is still running.....powder measure is empty. Operator had not checked that the sensors were enabled.
Yeah, I see you obviously got some skills with sensor programming, and automation, if you have machinist skills too, you are a god amongst men and have far more options than mere mortals. My own automation is something I considered cobbling a Pi w/ breadboard to the various modules, and cobbling my own sensors and controller base. Did help a buddy many eons ago build an automated brewing system that used linux on a tower with multiple serial ports to run the solenoids for all the valving, the burner, and such for each step of the brew process, and of course back in college I built the obligatory linux mr. coffee. A reloading press would actually be simpler now I think, but my problem is time (well that and I'd have to relearn about a million things). Time is killing me. Anywhoooo, to your question...there is no real rhyme or reason to what you find out there. There is a lot of stuff that was fabricated for a specific company that went defunct.....or things taken offline by big companies that ended up on Ebay. I came across a complete machine that was built by Winchester I believe, in the 70s. Taken off line, and stored in a garage for years, that was the equivalent of a Camdex machine right there, even complete and functioning. It was like a thousand bucks or something ridiculous. Lot of old police depart loading machines floating around too. It's really about how much time you want to spend searching for these kind of things. If you are interested in finding an old commercial machine that you can ressurect and modify, I'd search Ebay, GB, GI, and GA. And keep your eyes out at local equipment auctions. I think the most I came across was either word of mouth and Ebay.Thanks for the response Ericbu !
As long as he has the $, I'm in for the simplest route.
But I'm also a fairly proficient machinist, so making old or obsolete equipment work again is in my wheelhouse.
I know nothing of this equipment though, do you have any preference or suggestions for older equipment sources?
I know nothing of this equipment though, do you have any preference or suggestions for older equipment sources?
That sounds like a great reason to not allow them to be disabled, maybe a momentary push button “override” would be a better choice as it could not inadvertently disable a safety system.
Even on my manual machines, I always check the systems that alert me to problems before I start. Or one could have the same issue as automated equipment with no functional systems.
I don’t have their latest update but in my Mark 7 software the features are “toggled” on or off. Placing the burden of remembering on the human. I must manually override the one I built, each cycle until the shell plate is full.
Lol , not quite, I like to tell people I'm a " jack of all trades, master of some"., if you have machinist skills too, you are a god amongst men and have far more options than mere mortals.
Outstanding! I withdraw my previous tone.I've been working with automated equipment all my life. . . I have enough experience with redundant systems and intrinsically safe components and design. . .
bunch of nerds! lolLol , not quite, I like to tell people I'm a " jack of all trades, master of some".
I remember playing with breadboard and making 555's years ago! These days we don't do much at the board level, but I think I could still hook up my O'scope and make a board if I needed to