Bear Protection for Backpacking Suggestions

[Alaska444]

Yeah, well, there is HUGE difference between HUNTING and PROTECTION
shooting any bear that postures is a good way to have F&G make your stuff their stuff and end up with a set of shiny new bracelets.

it's a sound bite, I'm sure there is LOTS more to it, but...
not sound advice.

Actually, it is one of the reasons we are reaping more bear attacks I am sure. Tim Sundles is only espousing the prevailing sentiment that people had decades ago. Think about it, if the aggressive bears were eliminated and the fraidy cat bears were let go, there was a huge selection for bears afraid of man.

Bears are very intelligent creatures and it has been documented that they pass on learned behavior to their cubs. The new tolerance of even aggressive bears forced upon the American population by the Feds I believe, in my opinion is one of the causes of increasing rates of bear attacks. Many other factors involved as well for sure, but that is one factor that is not politically correct to mention.

In such, I respect Tim Sundles for exercising his first amendment rights of free speech in accord with exercising his second amendment rights as well. That is the way it was in the old days.

In addition, he did not state that as a recommendation or advice, he simply was stating the facts that many people did see and view the world of bear control in those terms. There is a saying up here in Idaho, shoot, shovel and shut up. Once again, I am not advocating that in contradistinction to THR rules of conduct, just stating what I have heard from a lot of folks about what other folks state. (I guess that is double or triple hearsay, but just saying if you know what I mean.)

So, bottom line, Tim Sundles is speaking sound advice on what I believe we should do in the woods, but I am not advocating breaking any laws. Just saying, you know what I mean. The new attitude to even aggressive bears will and has come back to bite us. (sorry for the pun)

I believe this is very much in line with the new way of raising kids where you just shouldn't spank them. Well, shucks, I guess I am plain and simply wrong if I were to give anyone that advice. Pretty much the same situation with what Tim Sundles stated about aggressive bears. I think he is correct even though not politically correct.

 

[tomrkba]

So do packs of large dogs work? That hotel up north uses dogs to keep polar bears at distance. Would the same tactic work in the forests of Alaska?

 

[Alaska444]

Down here of course grizzlies are protected.
Our Game and Fish Commission frowns highly on all grizzly shootings.
There's always an in depth investigation.
Rather than get cross threaded with G&F most people if they're having problems with a griz call them and let them trap it if it can work out that way.

Tim Sundles is from Montana, another bear protection zone.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Um, no
they used trained bear dogs, who are trained to do that,
so if you happen to have trained bear dogs, yes, it would work

much like asking if your family poodle is a great sheep dog...

as for 'bear protection zone'
thank a tree hugger, I'm arguing the practical side, that is LEARN basic safety in bear country
bear spray is point and shoot, guns not so much...
and legal etc. etc.

 

[22-rimfire]

You do what you have to do, but ONLY what you have to do relative to defending yourself from a bear. Defending yourself is not hunting nor is it sporting.

 

[Lost Sheep]

So do packs of large dogs work? That hotel up north uses dogs to keep polar bears at distance. Would the same tactic work in the forests of Alaska?

Possibly, but the type of dog you want to take on a hike is not the type of dog that makes a good housepet.

Make no mistake, these dogs are loyal, safe around family and such. So, this type of dog CAN make a good pet, but by nature are outdoors types, require a lot of exercise and often some specialized training. You are talking about taking a working dog and letting it enjoy its nature, satisfy its desire, fulfill its destiny only once in a while. That is just cruel, as it is a recipe for frustration in the dog and possible neuroses.

Lost Sheep

 

[Lost Sheep]

after you have had to shoot an aggressive bear. If you are really worried about having done so, get rid of the gun, simple task, actually. No $400 308 rifle is worth a legal battle costing thousands of $.

Say what?

It is pretty easy to get rid of a gun, true. But getting rid of a bear carcass?

The untracked wilderness is not as unobserved as your post seems to imply and the places the O.P. hikes is, by my estimation of his posts, relatively heavily populated by people, e.g. witnesses.

Think again.

Lost Sheep

 

[CB900F]

The Smitty;

In your situation, rather than the full sized rifle I'd go the combat shotgun route with a Knoxx stock. It's easier to get into position than the long gun. You can practice with relatively inexpensive trap loads & work up to combat bear stuff. The usual gun of choice for this is the 870 Express Home Defense with an 18" barrel & extended magazine. That combined with the recoil cushioning Knoxx stock makes a practical gun that almost anybody in your party should be able to use. Slinging the gun properly is very important, don't be afraid to try different options to find what works best for you.

I live in Montana & have encountered griz close enough to tell you that as a stone fact that they have bad breath. And haven't had to shoot either. Pay attention to the advice that arming yourself with knowledge is critical.

900F

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Wow, how has this thread gone so far off the tracks. The OP asked about recomendations for a handgun for bear defense. I think we've answered that haven't we? It seems if a handgun is going to be the defensive tool should an illtempered bear be encountered, then go with a 10mm or higher powered gun.

We have strayed into philosophy and I kind of can't believes the mods have allowed this one to go on.

AND ONCE AGAIN
equipment will NEVER make up for failing to be bear smart in bear country
MINDSET SKILLSET and then (further down)
EQUIPMENT....

I don't think anyone is diputing this man, so with respect, please relax and stop yelling at everyone. I don't think anyone is arguing that being educated and avoiding the problem is by far the best tactic. It's simply a hardware question in the OP.

these tend to be MUCH too much on 'what gun'
and not on 'don't be an idiot'

Well, it's a gun forum. I'm sure there is a "One with Nature" forum you could join. the OP's question was about a gun, and that makes it an appropriate question for the group.

The Park Service takes a VERY dim view of you shooting their attractions.

I have no doubt of that. But if I have no other option, I couldn't care less what they think or what the penalty is. I'm going to shoot if I need to. I'll take the legal problems, I'll take being put into custody, I'll take any fines................. and I'll also keep my life. Shooting should be a last resort, just like you said. But isn't there merit to thinking about what gun to bring, just in case you do have to shoot? All of your posts imply that even asking the question is wrong. If a person doesn't know the answer or have an education in firearms, isn't it better to ask?

 

[Certaindeaf]

You really only need one of those magich talisman gun tatoos.. flash that and all you'll see is hairy ******* and elbows.

 

[Shadow 7D]

http://www.adn.com/2012/08/10/2582961/man-charged-with-killing-brown.html
they troopers who investigate these things take them VERY seriously
I went to school with the son of one of Federal F&G's top scientists, stuff like DNA evidence and a number of 'forensic techniques' that are now standard were developed by guys like Dr. Espinoza to bring down illegal smugglers.

As for my taking aim at the premise
bring 'enough' gun, that you can hit a saucer hung off a fishing pole, attached to the front end of a VW Bug, coming at you at 30MPH, on a rutted dirt road....
(bear spray goes about 70' -100' in a ever larger cone)

Better not to get there, why do you have 'what gun'
when was the last, "Anybody have some good resources to learn about bears and staying safe in bear country"

Naw, just what type of cannon to blast them away...
edit:
what we need is more knee mortars, that's the solution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knee_mortar

 

[Alaska444]

http://www.adn.com/2012/08/10/2582961/man-charged-with-killing-brown.html
they troopers who investigate these things take them VERY seriously
I went to school with the son of one of Federal F&G's top scientists, stuff like DNA evidence and a number of 'forensic techniques' that are now standard were developed by guys like Dr. Espinoza to bring down illegal smugglers.

As for my taking aim at the premise
bring 'enough' gun, that you can hit a saucer hung off a fishing pole, attached to the front end of a VW Bug, coming at you at 30MPH, on a rutted dirt road....
(bear spray goes about 70' -100' in a ever larger cone)

Better not to get there, why do you have 'what gun'
when was the last, "Anybody have some good resources to learn about bears and staying safe in bear country"

Naw, just what type of cannon to blast them away...
edit:
what we need is more knee mortars, that's the solution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knee_mortar

Not sure if you are directing this at my posts, but that is not my message at all. I readily understand the heavy handed approach of the Feds and F&G, but I believe it is a misguided directive by these folks. That is my opinion. Once again, I am not advocating breaking any laws, but laws have changed in recent years through informed advocacy.

The wolf hunting season and delisting came about through conservative advocacy. I believe that they need to modify the grizzly bear protection now in effect as well in the lower 48. In fact, it has nearly been accomplished in the courts since they have greatly exceeded population goals of the protection program.

The missing equation in the bear attacks in the last couple of decades is how the Bambi generation mentality is increasing the danger for people who wish to enjoy the woods. Tim Sundles summed up that sentiment better than anyone else I have encountered recently. Placing people at the top of the list once again as the most important creatures in the woods is all that he is really stating. I agree with that and I also agree that lack of hunting pressure on these creatures send the wrong message.

That is now openly confirmed by the F&G in Alaska and the Chugach wilderness areas. For 30 years, no hunting has resulted in animals over running Anchorage and bear attacks increasingly common. Now, the F&G is once again opening limited hunting of that population that surrounds the city. If even the Anchorage wild life managers now recognize that truth, it must be worse than what the press reports.

 

[Alaska444]

As for my taking aim at the premise
bring 'enough' gun, that you can hit a saucer hung off a fishing pole, attached to the front end of a VW Bug, coming at you at 30MPH, on a rutted dirt road....
(bear spray goes about 70' -100' in a ever larger cone)

I believe you should evaluate the efficacy of bear studies closer. The greatest utility of bear defense is at 3 meters and the stopping distance on average of an aborted attack is 1 meter. I don't have the reference on the tip of my fingers right now, but if pressed, I can find it fairly quickly. But that is what the studies show. The efficacy of this truly mythical cone of bear protection at 70-100 feet is a pure myth. Read the studies on which distance the spray truly aborts an attack. It is not at 70-100 feet in the majority of instances.

 

[22-rimfire]

One meter, that would sure raise the old hackles and I don't think that person would ever think of a wild bear as a cuddly animal again.

 

[skidder]

Don't rely on bear spray alone unless you can predict the weather. I fired some into a light breeze and became defenseless. Bear spray to compliment your 44?..... Yah, I can live with that.

I've encountered several bears while hunting and hiking. Most of the time they just run off. However, there were a couple standoffs that were kinda spooky. One ended when my buddy pulled his 357 from his holster and cocked the hammer. The other one lasted about a minute long. I tried yelling and waving my arm, but he just stood there staring and would not leave the trail. I finally opened and closed the bolt on my 30-06 and he took off.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Don't rely on bear spray alone unless you can predict the weather. I fired some into a light breeze and became defenseless. Bear spray to compliment your 44?..... Yah, I can live with that.

Curious, I am wondering what brand of spray was defeated by a light breeze and how old it was? (Beyond expiration date?)

Spray velocity of the better brands is around 60 MPH, so they should be good even against a headwind of 30. Of course, one would be well advised to be moving sideways while deploying the spray in that circumstance.

I've encountered several bears while hunting and hiking. Most of the time they just run off. However, there were a couple standoffs that were kinda spooky. One ended when my buddy pulled his 357 from his holster and cocked the hammer. The other one lasted about a minute long. I tried yelling and waving my arm, but he just stood there staring and would not leave the trail. I finally opened and closed the bolt on my 30-06 and he took off.

Yep, bears are smart. Unpredictable, and smart.

Lost Sheep

 

[Lost Sheep]

Wow, how has this thread gone so far off the tracks.

I think that, while the thread has gone off the track of the specific question in the original post, it has stayed on the point of the O.P.'s larger question. That is, how to maintain greatest safety for my hiking companions and myself. The O.P. seems to agree that the wanderings of the thread have proved useful (see post #24).

For the information presented here, shared in a civil manner, this is a very useful thread for a wide audience and I intend to link to it as a resource for similar threads in the future. It is no wonder to me that the moderators are leaving the thread open.

Your post (partially quoted here) is no less valuable, for it is reasoned and reasonable for which I thank you.

Respectfully,

Lost Sheep

 

[Alaska444]

Interesting details in the famous, perhaps infamous, bear spray study most often cited.

Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska

. . .In 67 spray incidents for which distance was reported, the mean distance between user and bear at the time of spraying was 4 m (range 1–15 m). One user commented that he had ‘‘squarely hit the bear’’ at 10 m, although at distances 5 m success was variable. When bears were sprayed at 3 m (33 cases), the spray always enveloped the bear, with only one resulting in a failure to deter the attacking bear. . .

. . . In 64% (9 of 14) of these close encounters, brown bears charged the person(s) before being sprayed. In 85% (12 of 14; G1 ¼ 7.9, P ¼ 0.019) of aggressive encounters with brown bears, bear spray stopped the bear’s aggressive behavior; in 12% (1 of 14) the person spraying the bear was not injured, but the bear charged through the fog, halting 1 m from the person before moving off. In 12% (1 of 14) of aggressive encounters the bear contacted and slightly injured the person in the interaction (i.e., deep scratches requiring stitches). . .

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/bear_cougar/bear/files/JWM_BearSprayAlaska.pdf

Pepper spray is not very effective greater than 5 meters out. Many of the bears will not stop until 1 meter and some will still hit the person rendering modest injury. This whole notion that a bear will stop in a cone of pepper spray 70-100 feet away is not what the researchers have found analyzing the cases retrospectively. 3 meters is only about 10 feet. that is not much room for error.

 

[skidder]

Curious, I am wondering what brand of spray was defeated by a light breeze and how old it was?

I believe it was UDAP. The problem was not the initial speed that it left the can, but how it just lingered in the air. I sprayed it off the trail into a canyon and I coughed for three switchbacks up the canyon (not just from the initial blast). It doesn't just burn, but it feels like the oxygen is sucked from your lungs and it leaves you gasping and coughing. I don't doubt it's effectiveness or the speed at which it leaves the can, but how far before the speed dissipates and gets blown back. It's not a thick mist that just falls to the ground, but it's more like a pollen or powder that lingures. Imagine a baseball pitcher throwing a baseball over 90 mph into the wind (no big deal right). Now replace the ball with a handful of dust or powder. It won't be long before the dust/powder is right back on him.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Skidder, thanks for the speedy and candid reply. I suppose that since a person is more likely to surprise a bear approaching from DOWNWIND, this lends less support to spray preference.

Again, thanks.

Lost Sheep

 

[AKMtnRunner]

Alaska 444 and Skidder are right. Anyone planning on carrying spray needs to buy a second canister or use an older one about to expire for testing. While it may be sensed by someone 70-100 feet away, it won't have a serious effect on a bear.

I don't know why you'd want to use the spray on a bear that far away anyways. Usually when i see a bear, We don't notice each other until we're about that range apart and neither want to get closer. Panicly shooting the spray (or firearm) at that range is irresponsible and stupid as you'd end up with an empty canister and likely as much pepper in your eyes and respiratory system as the bear. The bear is probably just going about their day. Or if it is aggressive, wait till it's 10 meters so it can get a real strong dose. Of course there are exceptions like if a bruin is repeatedly harassing a camp, then that long gun may be in order.

Still, when I read the Buffalo Bore owners's comments, I got the sense that he's a little out of touch with the wild. Maybe the only times he gets out are to hunt so his impression of bear encounters are a bit skewed towards the "life or death" frame of mind. If we all behaved as the ammo company owner suggests, that of dispatching any bear that doesn't immediately run away, our wilderness will lose a great deal. That's another reason to prefer using spray; which will also deter aggressive bear behavior. Wonderful if momma bear has a spicy experience with humans and then teaches her cubs to not charge other humans.

Having an itchy trigger finger just isn't necessary with the right bear sense.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Alaska 444 and Skidder are right. Anyone planning on carrying spray needs to buy a second canister or use an older one about to expire for testing. While it may be sensed by someone 70-100 feet away, it won't have a serious effect on a bear.

I don't know why you'd want to use the spray on a bear that far away anyways. Usually when i see a bear, We don't notice each other until we're about that range apart and neither want to get closer. Panicly shooting the spray (or firearm) at that range is irresponsible and stupid as you'd end up with an empty canister and likely as much pepper in your eyes and respiratory system as the bear. The bear is probably just going about their day. Or if it is aggressive, wait till it's 10 meters so it can get a real strong dose. Of course there are exceptions like if a bruin is repeatedly harassing a camp, then that long gun may be in order.

Still, when I read the Buffalo Bore owners's comments, I got the sense that he's a little out of touch with the wild. Maybe the only times he gets out are to hunt so his impression of bear encounters are a bit skewed towards the "life or death" frame of mind. If we all behaved as the ammo company owner suggests, that of dispatching any bear that doesn't immediately run away, our wilderness will lose a great deal. That's another reason to prefer using spray; which will also deter aggressive bear behavior. Wonderful if momma bear has a spicy experience with humans and then teaches her cubs to not charge other humans.

Having an itchy trigger finger just isn't necessary with the right bear sense.

Exactly

 

[22-rimfire]

One thing to consider about Buffalo Bore (comments) is that it is in his self interest for people to buy his products in substantial quantities. I am not saying that is the case, because I lean toward MtnRunner's comments on this topic.

We saw what happened in terms of gun buying starting just prior to the 2008 presidential elections (about now actually month-wise) and that resulted in substantial money spent on firearms and ammunition. The buying has continued especially in terms of firearms.

What actually happens when bear spray becomes out of date? Potency decrease? Propellent decrease?

 

[j1]

It is not that hard to kill a brown bear. The trick is to stop him from killing you, and that is not easy

 

[j1]

It is not that hard to kill a brown bear. The trick is to stop him from killing you, and that is not easy.