Bear Protection for Backpacking Suggestions

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

The Smitty

Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2
Location
Saint Louis
Hello everyone just joined the forum so please let me know if I'm doing something completely wrong. I am a teenager who enjoys going back packing in the Rockies 1 to 2 times a year. The last few times I have went we hiked in with pepper spray as our primary defense against bears, neither me or my dad or the small group I go with really think that is an adequate defense against bears. I have been given the task of finding a good firearm to bring. The requirements, though pretty vague, are:
1. Preferably semi auto

2. Preferably +10 rounds in the mag

3. Light weight

4. Not overly expensive to plink with (since I only go backpacking max 2 times a year)

5. Full size pistol (most likely be carried in a drop leg or any OSTWB holster)

6. Be able to stop a brown bear (doesn't need to atomize the bear with one shot but be able to stop it a safe manner)


And by the way an suggestion is a good it could meet all six requirements or meet none. I would just like some opinions from people more knowledge than me on this subject.
Thanks in advance


Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android
 
I would keep the bear spray and have the handgun as a backup.

I don't think there is a single handgun that you can easily carry that will provide the protection you seek. As was mentioned, most choose the 10mm in a semi-auto. But they really aren't for plinking. None of the big calibers are plinkers unless you reload or have deep pockets.

I prefer a revolver. But that is me. I would probably choose one of my 41 mags knowing full well if a brown bear wanted to eat me for dinner and surpised me, I'll probably be dinner. You choose a solid bullet that is deep penetrating and practice as much as you can or can afford. From there, apply some common sense and you are in God's hands. It is not practical to prepare for every emergency.
 
Glock 20, LWD extended barrel, and some Buffalo Bore 220grn Hard Cast loads.

To plink, you can get a LWD 10-.40 S&W conversion barrel, and avoid 10mm prices.
 
The Smitty said:
Hello everyone just joined the forum so please let me know if I'm doing something completely wrong. I am a teenager who enjoys going back packing in the Rockies 1 to 2 times a year. The last few times I have went we hiked in with pepper spray as our primary defense against bears, neither me or my dad or the small group I go with really think that is an adequate defense against bears. I have been given the task of finding a good firearm to bring. The requirements, though pretty vague, are:
1. Preferably semi auto

2. Preferably +10 rounds in the mag

3. Light weight

4. Not overly expensive to plink with (since I only go backpacking max 2 times a year)

5. Full size pistol (most likely be carried in a drop leg or any OSTWB holster)

6. Be able to stop a brown bear (doesn't need to atomize the bear with one shot but be able to stop it a safe manner)


And by the way an suggestion is a good it could meet all six requirements or meet none. I would just like some opinions from people more knowledge than me on this subject.
Thanks in advance


Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android
Click to expand...
Great questions.

For griz, NO handgun is truly adequate, but lots of folks have been fortunate to save their lives with one that has enough power to penetrate. For brown bear, many folks start with .44 magnum and go up from there. I am in that club and carry my Ruger SRH here in griz country in northern Idaho.

I would suggest MORE than one person carrying adequate weapons. I prefer revolvers for bear protection, but certainly the 10 mm SA has its place. It is however on the same par as a .357. For black bear, it will suffice, but if you really are in griz country, it is very light.

Most bear defense experts start at 3000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. Not too many hand guns fall into that range.

A combination of bear spray carried by all members of the group as well as handgun as a minimum for each member of the party is the best way to go. There is also safety in numbers to avoid bear attacks and then proper camp cleanup and never bringing food into or near the tents/camping area. Lots of folks have separate food preparation and eating areas from the sleeping areas.
 
There's nothing that meets all your criteria because some of the criteria are contradictory.

No inexpensive plinker will be suitable for a grizzly bear. You'll need to shoot 10mm or .44 mag or greater energy to be of any utility for a grizzly. Discard the "bear gun" idea and you have a chance of meeting the other criteria. Keep it and you'll need to discard most of the others. Your betting your life on the weapon, better have one that will do the most important job you're expecting of it.

Bears are just dangerous animals with habits and behaviors that you can learn so that you can adapt your behavior to avoid dangerous encounters with them. They're not monsters that you need to have an irrational fear of unless you refuse to learn how to prevent running afoul of them. Knowledge of them is vital. Backing that knowledge up with bear spray is a prudent decision. If you're going to be out hunting where the "don't smell like dinner" rule has to be broken while you dress out a kill and pack it out, it can make sense to add a firearm, but then you're already carrying one so it becomes questionable why you'd ignore a big game rifle or shotgun for a big bore pistol.
 
I live in bear country. Hiking with a handgun capable of defense against bears means a heavy revolver. Stick with the bear mace and count yourself privileged if you see one. Grizzly...? You'll need more than a pistol.
 
hso said:
There's nothing that meets all your criteria because some of the criteria are contradictory.

No inexpensive plinker will be suitable for a grizzly bear. You'll need to shoot 10mm or .44 mag or greater energy to be of any utility for a grizzly. Discard the "bear gun" idea and you have a chance of meeting the other criteria. Keep it and you'll need to discard most of the others. Your betting your life on the weapon, better have one that will do the most important job you're expecting of it.

Bears are just dangerous animals with habits and behaviors that you can learn so that you can adapt your behavior to avoid dangerous encounters with them. They're not monsters that you need to have an irrational fear of unless you refuse to learn how to prevent running afoul of them. Knowledge of them is vital. Backing that knowledge up with bear spray is a prudent decision. If you're going to be out hunting where the "don't smell like dinner" rule has to be broken while you dress out a kill and pack it out, it can make sense to add a firearm, but then you're already carrying one so it becomes questionable why you'd ignore a big game rifle or shotgun for a big bore pistol.
Click to expand...
+1, HSO. great points.:D
 
Furncliff said:
I live in bear country. Hiking with a handgun capable of defense against bears means a heavy revolver. Stick with the bear mace and count yourself privileged if you see one. Grizzly...? You'll need more than a pistol.
Click to expand...
Exactly. if it wasn't for the possible accusation of poaching, I would always carry my Marlin .444. Even that is at the low end of acceptable griz defense guns.
 
sub-moa said:
TW3_254.gif
Click to expand...

No doubt that advertisement started the first "Is a .25ACP enough gun for bear?" debate.

Imagine if Al Gore had already invented the internet when that came out.


We wouldn't have anything to talk about. :uhoh:
 
I think that bear just scratched his last itch when hit with the 25ACP and was just amazed that he fell asleep and died. There was a bear attack in my area a couple of years ago and he was indeed shot with a 25 ACP (along with some other calibers).

Things would have been different if Al Gore had invented the internet when that ad had run.
 
22-rimfire said:
I think that bear just scratched his last itch when hit with the 25ACP and was just amazed that he fell asleep and died. There was a bear attack in my area a couple of years ago and he was indeed shot with a 25 ACP (along with some other calibers).

Things would have been different if Al Gore had invented the internet when that ad had run.
Click to expand...
Why go with a .25 caliber when you can just sneak up and put a .22 LR in his ear. EASY.:eek:
 
1) Bear Sense 2) Good Woodscraft 3) Spray 4) Firearm

Keeping yourself safe from bears is mostly a matter of knowing about them. Where they are, what they are doing at various times of day and seasons of year and adjusting your behavior accordingly. Maintain good woodscraft skills, keep a clean camp, if you find a bear kill or really good berry patch, don't camp nearby, common sense stuff like that.

Across the northern tier (Alaska, Canada, most of the northern U.S.) the injury rate among users of pepper spray (and now the newer UDAP) is much lower than those using firearms. Check out this article:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.2193/2006-452/abstract

While the authors of this article are considered by some to be apologists for spray, the facts remain that spray is largely effective, easy to aim and cheap to own (everyone in your party can have a can).

Then there are the legal considerations. In Alaska, if you shoot a bear in defense of life or property (DLP) you are responsible for preserving the carcass, hide and skull, which you then have to turn over to the State. You go through all that work and you don't even get to keep the cape! If you only wound the bear and chase it off, you have left an angry, injured animal who is a danger to other people in the area and probably suffering badly. And you have to notify the authorities. You have just ruined a nice hike (at best). If you spray a bear, you may or may not have to report the encounter (depending on legal jurisdiction) and have taught the animal that people are not a convenient source of food and best avoided (a good thing).

Then there is the requirement that you be accurate and fast. Here's a drill for you.

Find a backstop made of a hill with crest about 40 yards away. Mark a spot about 10 yards away. Set up a soccer ball just short of the crest propped up with a block of wood. Shoot the block of wood with your first shot (or have a buddy do it with a 22).

When the soccer ball passes the 10 yard mark (the point at which you can tell the difference between a real threat and a bluff charge), see how many times you can put holes in it before it reaches you. Bears can run, over broken ground, more than 30 mph. You have 1.5 seconds to deliver as many aimed shots as you can.

For extra points, count only the holes you put in the black spots and deduct one point for holes in the white spots (just kidding about the deduction).

I do know of a couple of people who swear by 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs (hard enough not to deform on its way through the bear). One guy has the round in the chamber with buckshot with follow-up shots the hard slugs. The buckshot to the face is to make the bear turn sideways. A shoulder/spine shot is generally sufficient after that. A spine shot will immediatly stop any creature. A shoulder shot that breaks bone will at least slow the bear down so you can keep your distance and take a humane kill shot safely.

The current consensus is that a bullet with a wide meplate with minimal deformation and 100% weight retention is best. I like to say, "Energy shreds flesh, but momentum breaks bone."

There is no plinking ammunition good enough for bear.


Here are thoughts and experiences from others on the subject:

Read this thread, especially post #18 It doesn't get much dicier than surprizing a Grizzly Bear Sow with a cub.

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=54852
or if the link does not work, paste this into your web browser
forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=54852


Then read this newspaper story from 4/18/08, Anchorage Daily News,

http://www.adn.com/bearattacks/story/147318.html
or if the link does not work, paste this into your web browser
adn.com/bearattacks/story/147318.html

"Bear spray stops charging sow .. SAVED: Couple hiking Peters Creek Trail used Counter Assault."

This was not an advertisement. Craig Medred is an outdoor writer on staff and the Anchorage Daily News.

A followup story ran on 4/20/08
http://www.adn.com/bearattacks/story/381252.html
or
adn.com/bearattacks/story/381252.html

On the other hand, there is this story. Spray may not have helped. The bear was starving and desperate. He did OK with a firearm, but then he was also a professional outdoorsman, fishing guide.

http://www.adn.com/2009/08/13/897940/twig-snap-alerts-dog-walker-to.html

and this fellow, a rancher in Montana who has had several encounters with bears.
See the post by windwalker, about 2/3 of the way down the page
http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=51538&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

Oops. The link appears to be dead, but here is the quoted passage
Here's another testimonial for bear spray. The last paragraph, however is most telling. The author is not known to me, except through the internet
windwalker from Eureka said:
First a few pointer about bear spray. Make sure you use bear spray not mace or some other product, I like counter assault . I use the 8 oz cans, they are good for about 5 one second bursts. Maximum range is 30 feet, 20 feet is way better. Always carry it in a holster on your strong side. If it's in your pack, it might just as well be at home.

I have sprayed three grizz and one black bear over the course of 14 years. I also spend a lot of time in country with lots of bears. (just north of Glacier Park, Montana).

Grizzly number one stole a goat hide out of my tack room, I followed the salt trail into the woods about 40 yards and surprized a two or three year old bear at about 50 feet. He (bluff?) charged and I sprayed him in the face at about 25 feet, he turned 90 degrees and ran off. end of story.

JGrizz number chased me and the dog up on top of my trailer loaded with hay I sprayed him in the face about 6 feet below me. He ran head first into the trailer two or three times then ran off.

Grizz number three was in the garbage at camp at night. I thought it was a black bear saw i walked to within about 15 feet a yelled, not a good idea.He stood up took one step tward me a I sprayed him. He flipped over backward and rolled around on the ground for what seened like a lont time then left. This was a big bear, maybe 8 1/5 feet and 700 pounds.

The black bear sow with one cub stepped out in front of my horse and caused me to be bucked off. I landed on my bear spray and punched a small hole that started to hssssssss...which further annoyed my horse. I pulled the can out and threw it at the bear and hit baby bear, mama picked up the can and bit into it setting off the rest of the spray. They both ran off with mama almost running over the top of me. NOw this is very important...never ever have a **** with bear spray on your fingers.

It has always worked for me but I still take the shotgun if I have to go after a wounded bear.
Dave
Click to expand...
Lost Sheep
 
Last edited:
Welcome to the forum and thanks for asking our advice

Welcome to the forum and thanks for asking our advice

I forgot to greet you properly in my earlier post.

You are planning ahead and considering your options. That is good.

Use the "Search" function to search for other threads on Bear Defense, Spray and other terms applicable to your question. There are many, since the question crops up regularly.

Enjoy your time in the woods and your time on the forum.

Lost Sheep
 
I use a Glock 29 with heavy DT loads, but that's for blackies. For Grizzly, I always said I'd feel safest only with my FAL, or better yet, not being there. First and foremost I'd want bear spray. Then probably a .460 S&W for a handgun and a short shotgun with heavy slugs. And I'd still be worried.
 
Great comments Lost Sheep. The bottom line is that there is no absolute method of bear protection that works 100% of the time. Layered bear defense including both guns and pepper spray along with bear sense in the woods goes a long way.

The last few years, there have been many studies "proving" bear spray is better than firearms. Not so fast, take a look at a study on DLP's in the Kenai peninsula that shows some very successful uses of firearms against grizzly mainly.

http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin/tpl/Downloads/URSUS/Vol_13/Suring_13.pdf

Very interesting study on DLP's in the Kenai Peninsula of Alaska. From 1961-1999, there were 71 DLP's recorded in this time period. Once again, this ONLY for the Kenai Peninsula, not the entire state of Alaska.

Of those 71 DLPs, there was only 1 recorded injury. The majority of these were away from the residence, the majority were from aggressive acting bears. Only 13 of the 71 were to protect property. 55% were an immediate threat and 27% were thought to be a danger.
 
Alaska 444 has good input.

I routinely encounter black and a brown here and there in the mountains behind Anchorage. I count myself lucky for being able to view them so frequently and luckier that things never escalated. I've read and researched probably more than I like to admit on this topic. I've bought and become halfway proficient with a few options. This is the boiled down version of what I've learned.

Assess your risk level and understand that you're searching for the most appropriate compromise for your situation. Know that no matter what you choose, most firearm folks will suggest something else. You'll just have to decide for yourself after learning what is out there and how you can prepare yourself to react and apply those tools.

The best defense we'll ever have is our using our head. Travel in groups, make noise, and pay attention.

When it comes to firearms:

1. You need to have it with you when you need it. If you don't like carrying a long gun, you probably won't so a handgun is probably the first compromise you'll make.

2. Shot placement. If not a high power rifle, you'll need to break a lot of bone to immobilize it or penetrate the CNS. The bear can end you before it bleeds out from any other vital organ shot. You'll need to be very good with your aim AND very lucky. Hitting the brain while it's charging will be like trying to hit a football bouncing down a steep hill coming at you at 30 mph.

3. The best back up you can have is someone else with a firearm. Nevermind the statistics that say that bears are much less aggressive towards groups of 5 people or more.

4. Bear spray works. It's a great companion to a firearm.

5. For simplicity, I divide firearm power against larger bears into three classes. I divide these by how small a target is required to stop the bear.

I. First, high power rifle and perhaps a shotgun slug going very fast. These stand a decent chance to create huge enough damage with one shot to immediately incapacitate with a center of mass shot.
II. The second class is a large bullet or slower slug with enough momentum to crash through enough bone like a shoulder or penetrate the skull or reach the spinal cord. 357 mag is probably the minimum.
III. The third class is anything else that you can get through the eyeball or ear to reach the brain without having to break bone. Hardly noteworthy, but it has been done before.

There's no question that if given more than 5 seconds to respond to a bear intent on mauling you that you'd want to shoulder and aim a high powered rifle that you had in your hands and turn the bear's insides to mush. But that amount of warning and that scenario may not be likely. Besides hunters in the act, I don't know anyone that walks in the woods ready to take a shot like that. It's just not how we hike because that is crazy. We might as well put on body armour and a full faced helmet everytime we ride in a car.

However, it must be said that the absolute best way to fight off a bear is with multiple high powered rifles or shotguns. If one person is down, another should be able to take an effective shot.

The largest handguns are still limited to second class but handguns are also much more convenient to tote around with you and more likely to not be next to that tree that you leaned it up against. In addition, by the time you realize the bear's charge was not a bluff, you're being played around like a ragdoll and a handgun will be easier to hang onto, point, and discharge.

Remember that these are worst case scenarios of encountering a bear. Chances are slim that we encounter them, and much much more slimmer that they will be agressive. In every 30-40 of my encounters, the bear wanted to get away from me more than I wanted to get away from it. Whatever you choose, put a lot of thought into it and then a lot of rehearsal.
 
Last edited:
Thanks everyone for the responses. This has made me rethink the idea of a pistol for bear Protection. Might put some iron sights on my Savage 30-06 synthetic stock but I was wondering if anyone has heard of the Glock 20 cal.50 GI conversion. Thanks
Wyatt


Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

ECVMatt
  • Locked
Could this possible end the bear pistol/revolver threads forever?
2
Replies
32
Views
2K
ugaarguy
ugaarguy
9
  • Locked
Underpowered for backpacking in brown bear country?
2 3
Replies
58
Views
4K
Mandolin
M
4
  • Locked
Best Gun for Black Bear Defense
2 3 4
Replies
85
Views
15K
dmazur
D
J
  • Locked
Protection from Bear and Moose...should I even bother?
2
Replies
38
Views
7K
gmh1013
G
C
  • Locked
Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska
Replies
9
Views
1K
Karl Hungus
K
Back
Top