irishlad
Contributing Member
My check weights were the same on both beam scales and my Frankford DS-750 digital scale. Either all the scales are wrong or all the weights
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Best balance scale available?
- Thread starter jski
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FWIW, I never said nor intended to imply that I use one scale to ~check~ another. I said they were all reasonably close to each other, meaning the readout's are reasonably consistent with one another when weighing the same item, whatever that item may be.
LiveLife
Member
- .14 gr
- .10 gr
- .12 gr
- .08 gr
- .10 gr
- .08 gr
- .12 gr
- .08 gr
- .14 gr
- .12 gr
Yes, 10 different sets of 6 different kernels randomly selected out of a bottle of Varget.
Yes, I agree as you can see from above picture that kernel length and cut shape vary under magnification while to our eyes, they may "look same".
Scales with lower resolution of .1 gr may not readily show these variations in "stacked combined" weight of mere 6 kernels of Varget, but scales with higher resolution (Like .02 gr of Gemini-20) will better show the weight variance. While my .1 gr resolution Ohaus 10-10/RCBS 5-0-5/Lee Safety scales will accurately verify down to 10 mg (0.15 gr) check weights, Gemini-20 will keep verifying check weights further down to 5 mg and 2 mg (0.03 gr) when .1 gr resolution scales (Beam scales and FA DS-750) fail to detect and verify check weights.
And those contemplating beam vs digital scales, consider this.
While this thread's OP was focused on best "balance/beam" scale available which I consider to be the Ohaus 10-10 or USA made RCBS 10-10 (now made in Mexico) with .1 gr resolution, even the cheapest $16 WAOAW digital scale verified check weights down to 4 mg (0.06 gr so I consider this to be the actual resolution) so reloaders on a budget or those looking for scales with higher resolution than .1 gr now have options to choose from either $16 WAOAW or $25+ Gemini-20 with .02 gr resolution which detected and verified 2 mg (0.03 gr) check weight.
Even though two scales read exactly same, it does not ensure they are "accurate". Let's say that "same item" happens to be a 9mm 124 gr FMJ and since many jacketed bullets can vary up to around 1.0 gr, let's say bullet weighs 124.5 gr and both scales read over by 0.3 gr. Depending on the powder, some 9mm load data start/max range can be around 0.5 gr and if you are loading near max charge, could overcharge the load, even though both scales read the same. This is same principle as two clocks showing the same time could both be off.
Your comment along with many other beam vs digital scale accuracy and repeatability issues were discussed at length for many years on Handloading and Reloading category of THR which prompted our myth busting thread where THR members who have access to laboratory/analytical scales with .015-.02 gr certified resolutions participated in our testing/myth busting - To the surprise of many, including me.
What we found was that regardless of scale/type used, use of known standards like check weights of highest class you can afford to buy (They could cost upwards of hundred of dollars) with ASTM Class 6 tolerance to be "good enough" for reloading (And for calipers, Class ZZ +/- pin gages) along with these findings - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...tal-scale-accuracy.759750/page-4#post-9591790
- Digital scales can be accurate and consistent to .1 gr and be trusted for reloading
- Price of digital scale may not be as significant as the resolution of the scale (.1 gr vs .02 gr)
- While .015 - .02 gr resolution may detect lower weights, .1 gr resolution is sufficient for reloading
- 1/4"x1/4" pieces of 20 lb paper/post-it note weigh between .04 gr - .06 gr (or around .05 gr average)
- 2-3 pieces of 1/4"x1/4" paper should register .1 gr on any beam or digital scale
- When your digital scale fails to detect smaller weights, you can weigh alongside heavier weights
So what's the "best" beam scale? Most beam scale used by reloaders have .1 gr resolution and the "best" beam scale to me is any beam scale that could detect and verify smallest check weight.
My two Ohaus 10-10s (which are no longer made) and Lee Safety scale (which is slower than 10-10 or 5-0-5) can verify check weights down to 10 mg (0.15 gr) and detect 5 mg (0.077 gr) along with 1-2 pieces of 1/4"x1/4" 20 lb copy paper. IMHO, if you want a scale with higher resolution and greater sensitivity than what could be obtained from beam scales, I would suggest going digital as increasing number of beam scales are now made in China/Mexico and quality is not as good as those that were made in the USA.
Unlike many other beam scales that are now made outside of US, Dillon Eliminator scale AFAIK is still being made in the USA by Ohaus with same 5-0-5 features - https://www.dillonprecision.com/eliminator-balance-beam-scale_8_7_25215.html
The reason why this category of THR is called "Handloading and Reloading" is for the most part, information needed to "Reload" everyday range blasting/practice ammunition require "good enough" consistency in reloading variables but for those who shoot matches and hunt long range, more precise information is needed to "Handload" rounds with greater consistency in reloading variables.Atta Boy Look at you go now!OK, since .1 gr resolution is good enough for reloading, if beam scale is reading "around" .1 gr with 6 kernels of Varget ... I guess we could call the scale "good enough".
And in "High Road" spirit, for those who require/want to reduce/eliminate as many reloading variables as possible, instead of guessing/theorizing, we sweat the details to focus on measurable and repeatable objective facts to verify or myth bust ongoing reloading notions - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...endence-from-work.853305/page-4#post-11386385
- Bullet sizing/diameter difference (keep in mind lot to lot variation exists) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-sized-the-same.818806/page-2#post-10567453
- Neck tension and bullet setback - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4
- Residual lube affect on neck tension/bullet setback - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-tension-bullet-setback.834035/#post-10787026
- Accuracy of digital/beam scales verified by Ohaus ASTM Class 6 check weights - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/revisited-myth-busting-digital-scales.821449/
- Accuracy of calipers verified by Vermont Class ZZ +/- pin gages - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ks-for-digital-calibers.821135/#post-10545265
- Long vs short OAL (greater neck tension for more efficient powder burn/chamber pressure build vs gas leakage) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...g-oal-col-long-vs-short.819257/#post-10511700
- Reducing OAL variance on progressive press (mixed range brass vs pre-resized brass) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...progressive-press.833604/page-2#post-10779806
- Powder charge variance - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/c-h-502-micrometer-powder-measure-10-drops.834894/
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JFrank
Member
I’ve no personal experience with Dillon but heard good things about it.
Redding #2 my pal swears by his.
1010 scales with the barrel micro poise can get some backlash causing tuning errors. ( personal experience talking not conjecture)
My Lyman D-5 is tuned to a single kernel by Scott Parker It is ridiculously accurate
My Lyman M-5 is VERY accurate like 2 kernel of Varget
More to follow
Redding #2 my pal swears by his.
1010 scales with the barrel micro poise can get some backlash causing tuning errors. ( personal experience talking not conjecture)
My Lyman D-5 is tuned to a single kernel by Scott Parker It is ridiculously accurate
My Lyman M-5 is VERY accurate like 2 kernel of Varget
More to follow
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You mentioned that before. What kind of problems do you have. I know they don't make that one anymore but if you contact them maybe they can help you. I've got a 250 and a $19 Frankford Arsenal that both work well, but I think electronic scales you can always get a dud.
Dave
It drifts horribly. I calibrate the scale using the linear method with 20 gram and 50 gram weights. It comes with a 20 gram weight but I bought an additional 50 gram weight to see if that gave me greater accuracy.
I press "tare" at the end of the calibration, at which point the scale reads 0.000. Then I change the units to grains.
If I simply do nothing and watch the scale, the readings begin to change. 0.00 => 0.03 then 0.03 => 0.07 then 0.11 then 0.11 => 0.19 then ... Sometimes this process continues upwards and sometimes it fluctuates, up then down then back up.
In addition, I can throw a charge, weigh it and get whatever then weigh the same change again and get a different value, off by as much a 0.3 grains.
I spoke to some lab guys (chemists) who tell me a balance scale will give me far greater accuracy than any sub $1,000 digital scale. Of course, these guys have some very nice balance scales.
I'm sorry to hear that. Sounds like we have the same starting routine. I set up my scale first and then leave a known accurate check weight on it while I get the rest of my stuff set up. Has never drifted in the three years I've been using it.
I worked with Ohaus scales for quite a few years in the wood working industry. The quality was great and so was the price. Can't speak to the current 10-10, but I'm sure you can get the accuracy you're looking for once you set it up right. Good luck, and let us know what you end up with.
Dave
I worked with Ohaus scales for quite a few years in the wood working industry. The quality was great and so was the price. Can't speak to the current 10-10, but I'm sure you can get the accuracy you're looking for once you set it up right. Good luck, and let us know what you end up with.
Dave
Oh yeah, for awhile I blamed my RCBS Uniflow for this. Replaced the large cylinder with the smaller cylinder. Got a baffle for the powder hopper. And, of course, the same erratic results continued.
Got out my old trusty RCBS 5-0-5 balance beam scale and consistency returned to my life. It wasn’t the Uniflow.
Got out my old trusty RCBS 5-0-5 balance beam scale and consistency returned to my life. It wasn’t the Uniflow.
JFrank
Member
Deleted
Blue68f100
Member
My original GP250 started doing that after 7 yrs. I contacted them and got a RMA. In 3 weeks I was sent a NEW GP250 that has worked flawlessly for 4 yrs now. You will need to have the warranty card and proof of purchase. Which than can provide to you if you purchased it directly from them. Since it has been discontinued you will probably get a different model.
I didn’t purchase it directly from them and I don’t have a warranty card. So I guess, game over.
BTW, this behavior started when I first started using it.
Scott Parker?
LiveLife
Member
To those touting the accuracy of various "tuned" beam scales, I have a question for you.
For "how to tune" a beam scale, see below videos.
My thought is any beam scale that does not zero repeatedly and verify check weights to .1 gr exactly (Do you even have check weights that go down to .1 gr?) is not as accurate or repeatable as when it left the factory. By "tuning" to get it to zero repeatedly and verify check weights down to .1 gr is only getting back to the design resolution of .1 gr.
Think about it.
To me beam vs digital scales is like comparing carburetor to fuel injection. There's a limit to the efficiency best of carburetors can produce but even the average fuel injection, even on cheaper commuter cars, will far surpass the efficiency of best of carburetors and one of many reasons why none of new car manufacturers use carburetors. With advancement and mass production of digital scales (And thanks to proliferating legalization of cannabis/marijuana industry that requires precise weighing of products), availability of digital scales even down to around $20 with higher resolution than .1 gr is increasingly becoming common as indicated in our myth busting thread.
So when .02 gr resolution digital scale that costs around $30 can verify check weights down to .03 gr (Yes, 1 mg check weight is .015 gr and 2 mg check weight is .03 gr) and $16 digital scale can verify check weights down to .06 gr consistently, are these "cheap" digital scales more accurate and repeatable than .1 gr resolution beam scales?
Think about that.
Regardless which scale you use, either beam or digital, I believe use of known standards like check weights to verify accuracy of scale in the weight range you are using is important. And if you want to verify whether your scale is accurate and repeatable down to .1 gr, get check weights that go down that low.
Here's an aluminum check weight set that will go down to 10 mg (.15 gr) for $11 - https://www.amazon.com/Calibration-...d-search-10&pf_rd_t=BROWSE&pf_rd_i=4989308011
And Ohaus ASTM Class 6 stainless steel check weight set that will go down to 1 mg (.015 gr) for $72 - https://www.zoro.com/ohaus-weight-kit-cylndr-500mg-to-1mg-ss-class6-80850110/i/G0843236/
As to mystical "tuning" of a beam scale, here's a video on tuning and enhanced use of Dillon Eliminator beam scale (AFAIK still made by Ohaus in the USA to 5-0-5 specs which uses free floating agate stone bearings on posts for knife edge to center and pivot on like below picture of my Ohaus 10-10)
So am I "tuning" my scales every time I verify with my check weights?
Video on Redding No 2 service and tune
Video on tuning RCBS 5-0-2
Video on tuning RCBS 10-10
Can anyone tune a beam scale so as to increase the design resolution of .1 gr?
And since many beam scale companies moved manufacturing to China/Mexico, different forums are reporting that accuracy and repeatability have gone down compared to USA made beam scales. So "tuning" a Chinese/Mexican made beam scale could still result with less accurate and repeatable beam scale.
For "how to tune" a beam scale, see below videos.
My thought is any beam scale that does not zero repeatedly and verify check weights to .1 gr exactly (Do you even have check weights that go down to .1 gr?) is not as accurate or repeatable as when it left the factory. By "tuning" to get it to zero repeatedly and verify check weights down to .1 gr is only getting back to the design resolution of .1 gr.
Think about it.
To me beam vs digital scales is like comparing carburetor to fuel injection. There's a limit to the efficiency best of carburetors can produce but even the average fuel injection, even on cheaper commuter cars, will far surpass the efficiency of best of carburetors and one of many reasons why none of new car manufacturers use carburetors. With advancement and mass production of digital scales (And thanks to proliferating legalization of cannabis/marijuana industry that requires precise weighing of products), availability of digital scales even down to around $20 with higher resolution than .1 gr is increasingly becoming common as indicated in our myth busting thread.
So when .02 gr resolution digital scale that costs around $30 can verify check weights down to .03 gr (Yes, 1 mg check weight is .015 gr and 2 mg check weight is .03 gr) and $16 digital scale can verify check weights down to .06 gr consistently, are these "cheap" digital scales more accurate and repeatable than .1 gr resolution beam scales?
Think about that.
Regardless which scale you use, either beam or digital, I believe use of known standards like check weights to verify accuracy of scale in the weight range you are using is important. And if you want to verify whether your scale is accurate and repeatable down to .1 gr, get check weights that go down that low.
Here's an aluminum check weight set that will go down to 10 mg (.15 gr) for $11 - https://www.amazon.com/Calibration-...d-search-10&pf_rd_t=BROWSE&pf_rd_i=4989308011
And Ohaus ASTM Class 6 stainless steel check weight set that will go down to 1 mg (.015 gr) for $72 - https://www.zoro.com/ohaus-weight-kit-cylndr-500mg-to-1mg-ss-class6-80850110/i/G0843236/
As to mystical "tuning" of a beam scale, here's a video on tuning and enhanced use of Dillon Eliminator beam scale (AFAIK still made by Ohaus in the USA to 5-0-5 specs which uses free floating agate stone bearings on posts for knife edge to center and pivot on like below picture of my Ohaus 10-10)
So am I "tuning" my scales every time I verify with my check weights?
Video on Redding No 2 service and tune
Video on tuning RCBS 5-0-2
Video on tuning RCBS 10-10
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whughett
Member
I use the check weights, nearest to the actual weight of my desired powder charge to “zero” the beam. For
A desired weight of 5.8 grains I’d use weights equaling 5.5 or 6.0 grains. Lyman balance beam dates to the 70’s. Old technology old methods I suppose. Works for me.
A desired weight of 5.8 grains I’d use weights equaling 5.5 or 6.0 grains. Lyman balance beam dates to the 70’s. Old technology old methods I suppose. Works for me.
I think most of us using "old" balance beams will continue to do so. If the bearings and knives are kept clean, they should remain accurate and repeatable. And in my case, with an old Bonanza balance that is not damped, I find the bouncing of the beam pointer to be somewhat hypnotic. It settles pretty fast anyway, just not as fast as a magnetically damped model-- and it's accurate and repeatable!
It settles pretty fast anyway, just not as fast as a magnetically damped model-- and it's accurate and repeatable!
JFrank
Member
I
Scott Parker is a gentleman in Bakersfield cal that shoots long range, as a hobby he tunes beam scales to a single kernel, his process /mo is painfully slow so be prepared to WAIT...
This is not conjecture rather a fact.
I’m a bit of a scale snob myself with a fetish for the older Ohaus such as the one I’m tuning at the moment with direct attention to the zero V notch, I’ll be spending a small amount of time cleaning and adjusting the main poise washer. Cleaning agates is a simple process as well as ensuring the copper vane flows freely centered in the magnet housing and sharpening knifes, which is best for another thread. I have a few secret tricks I save up my sleeve as well. ( always inspect the V grooves) - this scale resolves a single kernel
Ah yes
Scott Parker is a gentleman in Bakersfield cal that shoots long range, as a hobby he tunes beam scales to a single kernel, his process /mo is painfully slow so be prepared to WAIT...
This is not conjecture rather a fact.
I’m a bit of a scale snob myself with a fetish for the older Ohaus such as the one I’m tuning at the moment with direct attention to the zero V notch, I’ll be spending a small amount of time cleaning and adjusting the main poise washer. Cleaning agates is a simple process as well as ensuring the copper vane flows freely centered in the magnet housing and sharpening knifes, which is best for another thread. I have a few secret tricks I save up my sleeve as well. ( always inspect the V grooves) - this scale resolves a single kernel
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The question really boils down to this: How much do I have to pay for a digital scale that is a accurate and reliable as the analog scale (i.e., balance beam scale)? I strongly suspect that any sub $500 digital scale, even though it might have 2 or 3 digits to the right of the decimal point, is truly only accurate to the first digit to the right of the decimal point, 1/10th of a grain.To those touting the accuracy of various "tuned" beam scales, I have a question for you.
Can anyone tune a beam scale so as to increase the design resolution of .1 gr?And since many beam scale companies moved manufacturing to China/Mexico, different forums are reporting that accuracy and repeatability have gone down compared to USA made beam scales. So "tuning" a Chinese/Mexican made beam scale could still result with less accurate and repeatable beam scale.
For "how to tune" a beam scale, see below videos.
My thought is any beam scale that does not zero repeatedly and verify check weights to .1 gr exactly (Do you even have check weights that go down to .1 gr?) is not as accurate or repeatable as when it left the factory. By "tuning" to get it to zero repeatedly and verify check weights down to .1 gr is only getting back to the design resolution of .1 gr.
JFrank
Member
A&D fx120i run around $500 other than that look for a scot parker for $200
Gravity doesn’t drift ....
JFrank
Member
To those touting the accuracy of various "tuned" beam scales, I have a question for you.
Can anyone tune a beam scale so as to increase the design resolution of .1 gr?And since many beam scale companies moved manufacturing to China/Mexico, different forums are reporting that accuracy and repeatability have gone down compared to USA made beam scales. So "tuning" a Chinese/Mexican made beam scale could still result with less accurate and repeatable beam scale.
For "how to tune" a beam scale, see below videos.
My thought is any beam scale that does not zero repeatedly and verify check weights to .1 gr exactly (Do you even have check weights that go down to .1 gr?) is not as accurate or repeatable as when it left the factory. By "tuning" to get it to zero repeatedly and verify check weights down to .1 gr is only getting back to the design resolution of .1 gr.
Think about it.
To me beam vs digital scales is like comparing carburetor to fuel injection. There's a limit to the efficiency best of carburetors can produce but even the average fuel injection, even on cheaper commuter cars, will far surpass the efficiency of best of carburetors and one of many reasons why none of new car manufacturers use carburetors. With advancement and mass production of digital scales (And thanks to proliferating legalization of cannabis/marijuana industry that requires precise weighing of products), availability of digital scales even down to around $20 with higher resolution than .1 gr is increasingly becoming common as indicated in our myth busting thread.
So when .02 gr resolution digital scale that costs around $30 can verify check weights down to .03 gr (Yes, 1 mg check weight is .015 gr and 2 mg check weight is .03 gr) and $16 digital scale can verify check weights down to .06 gr consistently, are these "cheap" digital scales more accurate and repeatable than .1 gr resolution beam scales?
Think about that.
Regardless which scale you use, either beam or digital, I believe use of known standards like check weights to verify accuracy of scale in the weight range you are using is important. And if you want to verify whether your scale is accurate and repeatable down to .1 gr, get check weights that go down that low.
Here's an aluminum check weight set that will go down to 10 mg (.15 gr) for $11 - https://www.amazon.com/Calibration-...d-search-10&pf_rd_t=BROWSE&pf_rd_i=4989308011
And Ohaus ASTM Class 6 stainless steel check weight set that will go down to 1 mg (.015 gr) for $72 - https://www.zoro.com/ohaus-weight-kit-cylndr-500mg-to-1mg-ss-class6-80850110/i/G0843236/
As to mystical "tuning" of a beam scale, here's a video on tuning and enhanced use of Dillon Eliminator beam scale (AFAIK still made by Ohaus in the USA to 5-0-5 specs which uses free floating agate stone bearings on posts for knife edge to center and pivot on like below picture of my Ohaus 10-10)
So am I "tuning" my scales every time I verify with my check weights?
Video on Redding No 2 service and tune
Video on tuning RCBS 5-0-2
Video on tuning RCBS 10-10
The South Africa guy is just working with his check weights up to 120 grains which is far greater than most reloader would require.
He is not revealing any of the actual tuning techniques.
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