Beta testing Lee Precision stepped "M" style powder through expander

[Bartojc]

t has been awhile, any news about the possibility of "M" inserts for our powder through expander dies?
Now we have inline bullet feeder dies it makes the question come up.

Id be interested in the insert as well as an alternative to the standard insert that I have with all my PTX pistol dies.

-Jeff

 

[LiveLife]

No update yet on R&D of "M" style powder through expander since March email - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...powder-through-expander.916523/#post-12578646

My guess is they are likely very busy launching SPP/Pro 6000 on global basis along with launch support for inline bullet feeder/rotary magazine and 2023 update of Pro 1000.

I got an email reply from Calvin and sounds like efforts will be made to reduce "scraping" of brass for the stepped "M" style PTX R&D:​

Hello John,

Thank you for the update! We are taking a couple steps to try to help minimize the visual "scrape" also.​

Calvin Katzfey
Lee Precision​

 

[LiveLife]

UPDATE: R&D of "M" style powder through expander (PTX)

Hello John,

Thank you for the update! We are taking a couple steps to try to help minimize the visual "scrape" also.

Calvin Katzfey
Lee Precision

BTW, this was the "scrape" concern from initial R&D sample of powder through expander stress tested 10 times with measurement of case wall for thinning from post #20 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...powder-through-expander.916523/#post-12574281

Blazer, .FC., R-P"." and WIN headstamp cases expanded with initial R&D PTX

Calvin sent me a revised R&D sample to "beta test" and I plan on field testing on the production model of Lee bullet feed die and rotary magazine kit. Initial drop test with RMR FMJ and JHP/MPR is promising with almost no scrape mark inside the case neck.

On the left is the revised R&D PTX showing smooth transition compared to initial R&D PTX with sharp transition in the middle (Regular 9mm PTX shown on the right)



Blazer, WIN and R-P/R-P"." cases were used along with brand new RMR cases - https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/cas...parabellum/9mm-luger-new-brass-rmr-cases-new/



Blazer, 2 WIN and R-P/R-P"." cases expanded with revised R&D PTX



Brand new RMR cases expanded with revised R&D PTX

 

[Walkalong]

On the left is the revised R&D PTX showing smooth transition compared to initial R&D PTX with sharp transition in the middle (

Nice!

 

[drband]

UPDATE: R&D of "M" style powder through expander (PTX)


BTW, this was the "scrape" concern from initial R&D sample of powder through expander stress tested 10 times with measurement of case wall for thinning from post #20 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...powder-through-expander.916523/#post-12574281

Blazer, .FC., R-P"." and WIN headstamp cases expanded with initial R&D PTX

Calvin sent me a revised R&D sample to "beta test" and I plan on field testing on the production model of Lee bullet feed die and rotary magazine kit. Initial drop test with RMR FMJ and JHP/MPR is promising with almost no scrape mark inside the case neck.

On the left is the revised R&D PTX showing smooth transition compared to initial R&D PTX with sharp transition in the middle (Regular 9mm PTX shown on the right)

View attachment 1169916

Blazer, WIN and R-P cases were used along with brand new RMR cases

View attachment 1169914

Blazer, 2 WIN and 2 R-P cases expanded with revised R&D PTX

View attachment 1169915

Brand new RMR cases expanded with revised R&D PTX

View attachment 1169917

Looks like a win!

 

[GW Staar]

UPDATE: R&D of "M" style powder through expander (PTX)


BTW, this was the "scrape" concern from initial R&D sample of powder through expander stress tested 10 times with measurement of case wall for thinning from post #20 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...powder-through-expander.916523/#post-12574281

Blazer, .FC., R-P"." and WIN headstamp cases expanded with initial R&D PTX

Calvin sent me a revised R&D sample to "beta test" and I plan on field testing on the production model of Lee bullet feed die and rotary magazine kit. Initial drop test with RMR FMJ and JHP/MPR is promising with almost no scrape mark inside the case neck.

On the left is the revised R&D PTX showing smooth transition compared to initial R&D PTX with sharp transition in the middle (Regular 9mm PTX shown on the right)

View attachment 1169916

Blazer, WIN and R-P cases were used along with brand new RMR cases

View attachment 1169914

Blazer, 2 WIN and 2 R-P cases expanded with revised R&D PTX

View attachment 1169915

Brand new RMR cases expanded with revised R&D PTX

View attachment 1169917

Looks very good! Now.......we will see how they do at speed on your progressive merry-go-round. Cool!

 

[LiveLife]

Looks very good! Now.......we will see how they do at speed on your progressive merry-go-round. Cool!

I am planning to put the revised R&D sample PTX through its paces with the production model of bullet feed die and rotary magazine kit - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...6000-beta-testing.913099/page-6#post-12709588

 

[9mmepiphany]

I am planning to put the revised R&D sample PTX through its paces with the production model of bullet feed die and rotary magazine kit

While you're doing that, would you share any insights into how to stabilize the rotary magazine atop the die.

The bolt going through the hole in the die collar is a bit smaller than the hole's diameter and allows quite a bit of wobble. I ended up loosely tying it to the powder measure with a length of para cord...it hasn't fallen, I'm just envisioning it toppling over and raining 230gr bullets all over the bench.

I have several hacks in mind, but thought I'd defer to my more learned enablers

 

[GW Staar]

While you're doing that, would you share any insights into how to stabilize the rotary magazine atop the die.

The bolt going through the hole in the die collar is a bit smaller than the hole's diameter and allows quite a bit of wobble. I ended up loosely tying it to the powder measure with a length of para cord...it hasn't fallen, I'm just envisioning it toppling over and raining 230gr bullets all over the bench.

I have several hacks in mind, but thought I'd defer to my more learned enablers

Yes that is would be annoying to me if I had one, too. It was easy to fix on the Pro 6000 using a single stack to a collator because of the hole in the front of the casting topside. But other presses, like the App for example, has nothing so easy to brace to. Share your ideas (hacks) with us.....you're as smart we are.....the more heads the better! Of course a 3D printed brace could be an answer, maybe even slipped over the die.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I use lee's tapered ex-pander sometimes. It's also good for fixing necks that someone stepped on.

 

[ReloaderNoob]

Yes that is would be annoying to me if I had one, too. It was easy to fix on the Pro 6000 using a single stack to a collator because of the hole in the front of the casting topside. But other presses, like the App for example, has nothing so easy to brace to. Share your ideas (hacks) with us.....you're as smart we are.....the more heads the better! Of course a 3D printed brace could be an answer, maybe even slipped over the die.

Not sure what you are describing to stabilize the magazine.

 

[GW Staar]

When we are talking about these new Lee products it's hard to stay focused. "M" dies, go with case Feeding not bullet Feeding. But both have stability problems when using the multi-tube feeders that are sooo similar and have similar strengths & weaknesses. Then to make matters worse, Lee changed and complicated their website......for me it's getting hard to keep it all sorted out.
Then LiveLive posted the link in his reply to my post.....

I am planning to put the revised R&D sample PTX through its paces with the production model of bullet feed die and rotary magazine kit - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...6000-beta-testing.913099/page-6#post-12709588

And away I went.......So play like I never posted what I originally wrote in this and the last post......I'll wait for the next thread coming Livelive posted about below......then I'll comment on tall heavy unstable tubes......

 

[CQB45ACP]

Nice job @LiveLife

 

[RashQuestion]

While you're doing that, would you share any insights into how to stabilize the rotary magazine atop the die.

Yes please, and +1, 2, 3 on quote above and THANKS!

I know you always share your testing but I couldn't resist re-quoting what @9mmepiphany said!!!

Thanks again for all your contributions here and God Bless!!!

 

[LiveLife]

Nice job @LiveLife

Thanks again for all your contributions

Thank you.

I am planning to put the revised R&D sample PTX through its paces with the production model of bullet feed die and rotary magazine kit - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...6000-beta-testing.913099/page-6#post-12709588

While you're doing that, would you share any insights into how to stabilize the rotary magazine atop the die.

Will do.

Not sure what you are describing to stabilize the magazine.

Bullet Feed Cap ... It screws into the top of the bullet feed die ... it appears to handle it fine ... How to stabilize it all is the problem.....if it were easy and cheap Lee would have already done it. But they know the law of "more heads" too, which is why a certain prominent member here, has been singled out to beta test

During beta testing of the pre-production 3D printed sample, I disassembled all the parts and looked for points of failure (I figured that was the proper approach for beta testing, to push and test R&D/pre-production samples to the point of failure so these could be addressed to resolution in production model).

I found several concerns with one point of failure and forwarded my findings to Calvin. One of the concerns was how the rotary magazine cylinder cap (#BF5383) was attached to the feed plate (#BF5384) with round head screw (#FT2283) over O-ring. Challenge to Lee engineers/technicians was to allow the rotation of the magazine but also hold/apply tension on the loaded rotary magazine during press operation. There was some discussion to include tube length to maximize stability of the loaded magazine.

I have concluded the "beta testing" thread for bullet feed die and rotary magazine as product line has finalized and went into production - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...6000-beta-testing.913099/page-6#post-12709588

I am planning to start a new thread to discuss/review the production sample as this thread is about R&D of "M" style powder through expander so we should continue our discussion in the new thread.

 

[2 Horse]

New style “M” powder through expanders are in production now. Not all calibers are in stock at this point.
I picked up 380acp, 9mm, 357 Sig and 45acp.
Was told that they are adding new calibers as future production runs are required.
When ordering you may get the old style as part numbers have not changed.

 

[LiveLife]

New style “M” powder through expanders are in production now. Not all calibers are in stock at this point.

That is correct and good news.

I inquired and got this email reply from Calvin:

Hi John,​

​

We went back and forth on our decision to introduce the new powder through expanding plug. Ultimately, we felt that if it was an improvement over the previous version we should transition to the new version.​

​

So, the new square starting plug will replace the previous version under the same part number. At this point, we have many of the new plugs produced, but we are exhausting the previous version before producing the square style plug.​

​

Once, all sizes have been run and updated, we will begin to announce the change. For those that already are looking for the new plugs, we can still sell them as parts if requested, if available.​

​

Calvin Katzfey​

Lee Precision​

​

So those wanting "square starting plug" ("M" style powder through expander) can order them now under same part number after verifying availability.

For the record, this new product development and production was initiated by THR requesting Lee Precision fulfill this need - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...p-pro-6000-beta-testing.913099/#post-12477166

... when Lee Precision offered for me to beta test their new inline bullet feed die/rotary magazine, I immediately emailed back with forward to Stephanie (Vice President) insisting Lee Precision consider offering stepped "M" style powder through expander and subsequently when I talked to Calvin on the phone, I explained this and he took the request to John Lee, president of Lee Precision who immediately committed to R&D of stepped powder through expanders to be offered ...​

​

And now the entire product line of die sets will have the "square starting" plugs ...

 

[GW Staar]

I've been in the reloading game for a long time, but only started on a progressive the January after Obama's first win.....so not nearly as long. I have always felt feeding bullets on a merry-go-round was the weak link. Then Lyman created the "M" step.....DAA, RCBS, and later others copied......because it works. Glad to see Lee climbing aboard. They won't regret it. "M" step PTX's for pistols are great.

But for small-mouthed bottleneck rifle, not so great.....that's why RCBS created their separate "M" expander for their Tube Rifle Bullet feeder dies. That works great for rifle.....but it requires another station....no problem with their PC7, but harder to do on a 5 station. On my new Pro 6000 I can do it one of two ways: 1 size; 2 "M" neck expand and prime; 3 charge; 4 bullet feeder; 5 seat; and 6 taper crimp........but you noticed there's no powder check unless you do what I did and make a camera/display ............ or ........ make a feed N seat station coupling feeder and seater in one station. I've shared both options on THR. Betting Lee could make a Feed N Seat coupler even better. I've given what I did (.stls are on THR) to just encourage ideas, patent-free.

FeedNSeat: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/feednseat-in-one-save-a-station.917972/

 

[Bartojc]

And now the entire product line of die sets will have the "square starting" plugs ..

This is really nice to see. Good to see listening to the customer actually works once in a while.

I was just wondering about this the other day as a bullet fell off the merry-go-round. I've mostly taken summer off from reloading and probably only loaded 500-600 rounds or so. Now I've got something I "need" to buy.

-Jeff

 

[LiveLife]

This is really nice to see. Good to see listening to the customer actually works once in a while.

Yes. This going to production will help avoid tilted bullets moving forward for more consistent finished rounds.

I was just wondering about this the other day as a bullet fell off the merry-go-round ... Now I've got something I "need" to buy.

If you are using mixed range brass, resized case length could vary quite a bit. When setting the flare amount, if you measure the resized case lengths and use shorter average, you are likely to avoid cases that did not receive sufficient flare and tip the bullet.

 

[GW Staar]

Now see if you can convince Lee to find someone who can design a website that someone beside computer programmers can use. I can't find anything there anymore. Go ahead, try entering Square Starting Plugs in their search engine and see where you get. Or powder through expanders.......!

I can find no reference to these "M" expanders anywhere. Very frustrating......I thought RCBS web site people were bad..... their customers are NOT just computer programmers.....

And where do I go to find out what "And now the entire product line of die sets will have the "square starting" plugs" means ? Square starting plugs? Picture?

 

[LiveLife]

I can't find anything there anymore. Go ahead, try entering Square Starting Plugs in their search engine and see where you get. Or powder through expanders.......!

Because it's super secret.

As Calvin indicated in the email, no announcement has been made and won't until "all sizes have been run and updated".

If you are looking to buy the new "square starting plug", same part number is used but likely have to verify with customer service whether new "powder through expanding plug" has been made for the caliber. Here's one for 9mm - https://www.leeprecision.com/pm-exp-plug-9mm

"new square starting plug will replace the previous version under the same part number. At this point, we have many of the new plugs produced, but we are exhausting the previous version before producing the square style plug.

​

Once, all sizes have been run and updated, we will begin to announce the change. For those that already are looking for the new plugs, we can still sell them as parts if requested, if available.

​

Calvin Katzfey
Lee Precision"

 

[9mmepiphany]

Now see if you can convince Lee to find someone who can design a website that someone beside computer programmers can use. I can't find anything there anymore. Go ahead, try entering Square Starting Plugs in their search engine and see where you get. Or powder through expanders.......!

I called Lee today to get all the upgraded parts for my SPP and the CS gal transferred my over to the tech because she had no idea what I was asking and started asking for pictures of my press

He knew what I was talking about and looked up all the part numbers for me. He did pause a bit when I asked about the "square starting plug" , but relaxed when I described it and how they were going to roll it out after they used up their stock on hand...hopefully I get the right one when it arrives. I also got the ACP upgrade to add the SPP style priming system.

My only irritation is that their shipping was $20...very minor irritation all things (help) considered

 

[GW Staar]

I get all that, and I'm happy I was entertaining to 9mmepiphany! But my gosh the site is complicated! Me and a whole bunch of customers liked the old site where you could logically find something fast. Hope they fix it.....and their "new" search thing? Okay we won't go into that can of worms.....but now I know I can add LiveLife to the programmers......he obviously can navigate.

So I clicked LiveLife's link.....it went to Parts/Reloading Dies/Handgun Dies/3 Die Steel Pistol Sets/3 Die Set 357 Sig Steel Parts!!!/PM Exp Plug 9mm! Hold it I'm outa breath!

Then just for fun I went back a few to 3 Die Steel Pistol Sets......then clicked on 9mm and I found the PM Exp Plug 9mm again....least that made sense. Not trying to make fun.....but wow! Must be my age.

Okay....back to serious. I still don't know what "square starting plug" refers to.......your pictures of the "M" PTX look round to me. Another secret? I feel dumb enough already.

A good thought is this........replacing every PTX with "M" styled ones is just flat awesome. So the PTX die these plugs go into doesn't change, right?

I called Lee today to get all the upgraded parts for my SPP and the CS gal transferred my over to the tech because she had no idea what I was asking and started asking for pictures of my press

He knew what I was talking about and looked up all the part numbers for me. He did pause a bit when I asked about the "square starting plug" , but relaxed when I described it and how they were going to roll it out after they used up their stock on hand...hopefully I get the right one when it arrives. I also got the ACP upgrade to add the SPP style priming system.

My only irritation is that their shipping was $20...very minor irritation all things (help) considered

You know, 9mm, you need to report to us when you get those goodies! Unfortunately, Shipping is never free...you either pay higher product prices to get free shipping, or pay the damned shipping.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Okay....back to serious. I still don't know what "square starting plug" refers to.......your pictures of the "M" PTX look round to me. Another secret? I feel dumb enough already.

Don't feel bad, took me a while to even come up with something plausible. I'm guessing...really just guessing...that it refers to the "square" shoulder they added (to form the cup) to the prior straight angle of the expanding plug