Beta testing Lee Precision stepped "M" style powder through expander

9mmepiphany said:
Don't feel bad, took me a while to even come up with something plausible. I'm guessing...really just guessing...that it refers to the "square" shoulder they added (to form the cup) to the prior straight angle of the expanding plug.
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The ironic part of that name is when Lee initially made that square edge/step it scraped brass off the inside of the case...oops.
They had to slightly taper the transition for it not to scrape, not a big deal though, just a few lines of G code.
But Lee still calls it the square starting plug???
Why not the "M type" expanding plug, I can't see anyone owning naming rights to the letter M, but that's the name everyone uses.
jmo,
.
 
9mmepiphany said:
Don't feel bad, took me a while to even come up with something plausible. I'm guessing...really just guessing...that it refers to the "square" shoulder they added (to form the cup) to the prior straight angle of the expanding plug
Click to expand...

Okay.....now that makes sense, square so the bullet sits square.
Tilos said:
The ironic part of that name is when Lee initially made that square edge/step it scraped brass off the inside of the case...oops.
They had to slightly taper the transition for it not to scrape, not a big deal though, just a few lines of G code.
But Lee still calls it the square starting plug???
Why not the "M type" expanding plug, I can't see anyone owning naming rights to the letter M, but that's the name everyone uses.
jmo,
.
Click to expand...
I can see why not "M". Lyman may not like that...."M" is generic until you add it to "die". If I was naming it, it would be "Square Pocket Expander Die"and "Square Pocket Expander Plug".
 
9mmepiphany said:
I do go out of my way to either credit Lyman with Lyman M-die or go with M-profile die. I did like the original description of Stepped die
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I have a feeling these reloading companies have a little barter and sharing going on. None of them could get to first base without that. take RCBS and Hornady Powder measures for example. They are so dang close that there's no way there's not patent infringement going on. The Uniflow came first by years with their uniflow, so Hornady had to license it. But then RCBS had a real crappy case activated linkage for their first progressives....then Hornady came out with their much better idea and suddenly RCBS copied it almost exact. So I figure that made it a wash. Hornady uses the Uniflow design and RCBS uses the Hornady case activated linkage......wash. Maybe the same thing with the "M" dies and something Lyman uses that belongs to another company. They sure seem to share and share a like in that industry.
 
GW Staar said:
Okay.....now that makes sense, square so the bullet sits square.

I can see why not "M". Lyman may not like that...."M" is generic until you add it to "die". If I was naming it, it would be "Square Pocket Expander Die"and "Square Pocket Expander Plug".
Click to expand...
Or even just simply "stepped expander" would be a more descriptive name.
I consider a "die" to be something hollow or has a cavity, that's a diemaker's terminology.
So, I'm not sure why it's called an M die as that term describes the threaded part, not the expander.
Sorry for the hair/shaving/cutting right there,
jmo,
.
.
 
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Tradition is a lot of it......correctness obviously secondary. Die head......so anything screwed in to it must be a die.....;)
 
It's nice to see that Lee is already putting these out, I thought we would have to wait for a 2024 release.
Will Lee be making these for bottle necked cartridges as well?
 
vepr12 said:
It's nice to see that Lee is already putting these out, I thought we would have to wait for a 2024 release.
Will Lee be making these for bottle necked cartridges as well?
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I checked and they said a powder thru wont work with case neck as small as on the .223. The powder wont flow thru the tiny hole. For the 30 cal an expander plug from the 30 m1 would give work.
 
I contated Lee a couple of weeks ago to get all the upgraded parts for my Lee Pro 6000. CS was nice enough to transfer me to a Tech Guy who helped my with part numbers.

While I had him on the phone, as asked about the Square Starting Plug...he had no idea what I was asking for. I had to explain what it was, what it did, and what it was going to replace, before he figured it out and added it to my order.

Got it the other day, but haven't had time to add all the parts yet. Examining the part, in .45ACP, and was happy to find that it was indeed the neww stepped expander insert. It looks great and nicely machined and finished
 
Very cool!!......I think that may be too tall an order to ask my brain to figure out.......dang I hate getting old. You could probably "sell" those part numbers that bring new updated parts!

I just got new hearing aids yesterday, so my old age is official now! Wondering how I will do trying to talk to a Lee tech on the phone with them. Not looking forward to the experience.....it may not work out as well as yours! :)

Too bad Lee didn't just make new serial numbers.....or use the same ones with and "M" suffix......and actually ADD them to the catalog! I need.....simple.....
 
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GW Staar said:
I just got new hearing aids yesterday, so my old age is official now! Wondering how I will do trying to talk to a Lee tech on the phone with them. Not looking forward to the experience.....it may not work out as well as yours!
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I just moved up from battery powered one to rechargeable ones earlier this year. It is really interesting how your hearing , without the aids in, actually becomes less sensitive to sounds...they are relaxing after years of having to strain to hear.

For me, using the phone on speaker works best. The CS gal wasn't very helpful at all (wanted pictures of the parts I wanted replaced), luckily she transferred me to the tech guy. Of course, he had to transfer me back to her to get the parts ordered...I also ordered the Soft Rotation rod for the SSP and an kit to upgrade my ACP to a Deluxe APP (changes the primer feed system to one "similar" to the SSP)
 
My wife was telling me recently that I might need a brake job on my Four Runner. Couldn't hear that frequency.....now I'm afraid I can.....:uhoh:

I too, was changing aids....from one removable battery model to two chargeable battery ones.....from Costco. Got smart.....two for less than the price of one from't a local practitioner made by the same company no less.

Too many unprotected shots from a .357mag when I was young. Stuuppiiid....You younger guys at least know better....back in the 60's I didn't.

I'll take your advice about calling on speaker.

Do you have a line item list from the invoice, (minus the private stuff) to show me what you got? Curious what all you changed....ACP I get and the 6000 you mentioned already, anything for that besides the soft rotation rod? Will be interested to hear how you like that. I haven't got my first "M" die expander yet, so maybe my first one I order will come with the Square starting plug.....don't know where they are on that.

I don't care about the APP wood handle, as my hands are on the smaller side and the old handle doesn't bother me at all....and it's more out of the way of the incoming case and bullet tubes. But know that TylerR has offset adapters that work well with problem insert interference needs with the wood handle and its reversed levers.
 
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R44 flyer said:
I checked and they said a powder thru wont work with case neck as small as on the .223. The powder wont flow thru the tiny hole. For the 30 cal an expander plug from the 30 m1 would give work.
Click to expand...
Yes, powder thru expanders as you explained won't work with bottle necks, but separate neck expanders from Lyman or RCBS do. I don't know what the Lyman rifle choices with "M" dies are, but RCBS sells a Tube Rifle Bullet Feeder that has an "M" expander in addition to the Feed die, in both .223 and .308. But they are $120 plus for each kit. I bought both and they work great, on my ProChucker 7 and Lee 6000......but that's another station required so not so easy with 5 stations, and even with the Lee's six, I still have to size/deprime off press......which is preferable anyway, since I size without the expander plug on a single station press, and trim brass off-press first.

So then feeding brass and expanding necks in station one with the "M" expander, station 2 charges powder only, 3 powder cop, 4 bullet feed, 5 seat. And on the Lee 6 Pack you have another station still to crimp......what's not to like. :)

Below a picture of the parts in the RCBS Rifle Tube Feeder Kit.....that has worked great for me in the Six Pack.

IMG-2811.jpg

"M" expander on the left....feeder on the right. Maybe Lee will add such a thing, (the expander) to their line as well! To go with their rifle feeder.
 
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GW Staar said:
Do you have a line item list from the invoice, (minus the private stuff) to show me what you got?
Click to expand...
Since you asked so nicely 😊
All upgrades for the Six Pack Pro (SPP)

1. Gold Primer Pin for SPP - SKU: 91912

2. SPP Primer Trough Assembled - SKU: 92020

3. Carrier Cover - SKU: BP5073

4. Bottom Cover for SPP - SKU: BP5075

5. SPP Slide & Retainer Ring - SKU: BP5353

6. SSP Primer Feed Spring - SKU: PR5343

The above parts were all comp'd. Then I added:

7. SPP Soft Twist Index Rod - SKU: 91917

8. PM Expand PLG 45ACP - SKU: SE2411
 
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Thank you sir! That will save a lot of time. I'm not having many problems at all with my SPP, but I am certainly interested in testing the new parts to see how they work. I've used other "m" style PTX's so far, but Lee's are certainly worth checking out and comparing. Will need to add the Universal PT die to go with it. Price is always the best part where it comes to using Lee products. The soft twist index rod is interesting, and will be worth it if it works......would be surprised, knowing Lee, if it doesn't. ;) Funny, how something so simple.......and the indexing design is what makes it so.
 
vepr12 said:
It looks like NOE has figured out how to do .223 with Lee's dies. Maybe a drop tube extension would help aerate the powder before binding up.

.223 Remington Powder Through Expander Kit w/Die | NOE Bullet Moulds

noebulletmolds.com noebulletmolds.com
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Yes, was aware of that, and it might work with ball powder. But be careful and watch, because those necks are small, and minus the PTX walls....even smaller. Bridging is almost guaranteed with stick powders....may have to vibrate it in to be sure you have a complete fill. Then again, even without a ptx.....that can happen......and is why my favorite .223 powder is TAC.

My motto in reloading is, "Pay atttention to details". :)
 
I got my hands on some CFE BLK and tried loading some cases tonight with the NOE PTX and wow! The powder was falling out of the die and Auto-drum leaked like a sift. I don't think I will be using either for ball powders again.
 
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Thanks, I wasn't ready to examine the problem factors and try to tweaking things, but I did get out Lee classic cast powder measure and charge about 100 cases on the Classic cast press. The accuracy with that was impressive, about 1/10th of the time I'd get .1 gr. variance, if that. I was really hoping to do do all this on the pro6k, but I don't see me using fine ball powders with it after this.
 
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I love the sidebar discussions regarding Lee’s hard to use website and why didn’t Lee do this or that. Beggars can’t be choosers comes to mind.

Oh stop it, it’s only a joke. Besides folks, but for @LiveLife we wouldn’t even know this development was happening.

But if you really want confusing go to Redding’s website and/or their printed catalog—both dizzying.

Closer to topic, I still use Lee’s original PTX for 9mm (switched to Redding’s M style for 45acp couple years ago) and am anxiously waiting to buy a new insert instead of buying another brand.
 
higgite said:
LiveLife said:
Lee Deluxe PPM has elastomer drum powder wiper and prevents leakage even with fine granule powders like No 2, H335 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ct-powder-measure.922834/page-2#post-12712439
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All of the Lee drum measures have wipers. Their purpose is to prevent powder shearing, not to stop leaks. The drum-to-body fit is supposed to stop leaks when tightened properly.
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Ooops, that's what I get for posting close to bedtime with sleepy brain.

I should have better clarified that wiper needs to be "conditioned" by running a pound of powder through the measure to better seal with cone surface around the plunger hole to prevent leakage as posted in this thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/lee-six-pack-pro-parts.923193/#post-12723920

I have always "lubricated" the elastomer wiper on Pro Auto Disk with graphite powders or finely shaved No. 2 pencil lead ground on paper until black which allowed the disks to glide smoothly without binding and provided more consistent drops. For this reason, over the years, I have recommended running coated powders like W231/HP-38 to better "condition" the wiper surface.

With the elastomer wiper on Auto Drum/Deluxe PPM, I experienced the same as I ran through a pound of W231/HP-38, I saw the wiper surface blacken and cycle more smoothly.

R44 flyer said:
[Lee Precision] say something about conditioning the powder measure with a pound of powder perhaps this breaks in the wiper?
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Yes, that's what Calvin (My "beta test" contact at Lee Precision) said about breaking in the wiper to "condition" the measure for more consistent drops

Good morning,

... results get better as the drum continues to be conditioned and break in. We often see the best results after a pound has been ran through any powder measure ...

Calvin Katzfey
Lee Precision​


Here's new clean wiper out of the box.

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Wiper surface after running one hopper full of W231/HP-38 (Black powder smear around plunger hole was wiped off cone surface on the right but wiper surface was not wiped clean and left to "condition")

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Wiper surface after several hopper full of W231/HP-38. Wiper is not fully "conditioned" as cone surface around plunger hole shows black powder smear which indicates further "conditioning" of wiper is needed.

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Running additional powders (Titegroup, No. 2 and H335) conditioning the wiper further and black powder smear on cone surface around plunger hole getting less and less.

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Wiper continuing to "condition" as less and less black powder smear shows on cone surface around plunger hole

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And here we are, after about a pound of powder (W231/HP-38, Titegroup, No. 2 and H335) ran through the measure, wiper was conditioned enough to not show any black powder smear on cone surface around plunger hole.

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I have an extra Auto Drum that came with 2023 Breech Lock head Pro 1000 so I am planning to lubricate the wiper to expedite the "conditioning" ... Stay tuned for a new thread.
 
I'll be looking forward to that thread. Would the Lee auto disk be better for this powder, I hear for many it's preferred for pistol loads.
 
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