BG and baby killed in crossfire (merged threads)

[Preacherman]

BG and baby killed in crossfire

From CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/11/la.shootout/index.html):

L.A. police kill gunman holding baby; child also dies

Monday, July 11, 2005; Posted: 4:02 a.m. EDT (08:02 GMT)

LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- Police shot and killed a man involved in an hours-long standoff in a South Los Angeles neighborhood after he wounded an officer, police said. A baby he was holding died in the exchange of gunfire.

At 3:50 p.m. (6:50 p.m. EDT), police responded to a report of the man, Jose Raul Lemos, behaving aggressively and erratically -- he was initially barricaded in a house with a number of weapons.

According to police, Lemos fired at police several times over the next several hours before he ran out of the house -- first firing indiscriminately, then directly at officers, hitting one in the shoulder.

At that point, police opened fire on the man, believed to be in his mid-30s.

"We did everything we could to hold our fire. We showed a tremendous amount of restraint, but unfortunately the suspect's actions dictated this," said Los Angeles Assistant Police Chief Jim McDonnell. "It's a true tragedy."

Although the 19-month-old baby died of a gunshot wound, police did not immediately know if the bullet came from police or the man holding her.

"The officers are taking it very hard," McDonnell said. "Anytime you have a baby killed, it takes its toll."

The wounded officer is in stable condition, police said.

 

[griz]

Just damn. That is one sad story. For the sake of the officers, I hope they find the BG killed the baby first.

 

[RavenVT100]

I have an infant son. What a rotten story.

There is never any reason for a completely innocent child to die in one of these incidents. Whoever did it needs to be held accountable.

 

[armoredman]

Gotta be untrue - we all know Cali's gun laws would have stopped this from happening.

 

[Old Fuff]

I would have hoped that a sniper could have taken out the father (if he was indeed the father) and missed the child. But what works in theory doesn't always come out in practice. There is only one person that is responsible for what happened. I will let God sort out the rest.

 

[El Rojo]

This is just a tough one. In our perfect shooting worlds, we would have shot the guy in the head and never hit the baby and the world would be a nice and safe place. In reality, this guy was an imminient threat to everyone in the area and unfortunately he had to be stopped. Could they have taken cover and waited until he ran out of ammo? Maybe. We weren't there. Should we hold the officers accountable for murder? I wouldn't think so. And save the "if this happened to a civilian they would be charged with murder" line. Civilians are not expected to surround and negotiate with hostage takers. The facts are we expect police officers to do this difficult job and sometimes mistakes happen. Did these officers intend to kill this child? Lets not forget the man placed that baby in that situation. He is the one to blame.

 

[foghornl]

Anyone that would put a (their) child in Harms Way like this (using the child as a shield) deserves only to go down hard and fast.

Is is just me, or is the "Criminal Element" of our society sliding further toward absolute disregard of life? They [The Bad Guys] appear to me to be going towards "No Breathing Witness Left Behind".

 

[Missashot]

What a very sad and tragic story. I absolutly hate to read about these cowardly people that use innocent people especially children for hostages. I do wish that the stand off would have ended on a better note.(that being the
bad guy getting what he deserved without the death of a child) Or even better, there would have been no stand off to start with.

 

[Lennyjoe]

I too think a sniper would of been able to take him out. Unless he was a moving target that the sniper couldn't of gotten a clear shot. Maybe the cops should of taken cover until the perp emptied his weapon and then tried to take him out.

Too many variables and I wasn't there to know for sure.

Sad to see that the young child didn't come out of it alive.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Snipers should/could/would, but things still go wrong. There is some tough footage of an ABQ police sniper killing a hostage held by a suspect.

Ideally, everybody does the best they can, but sometimes that just is not good enough.

 

[powerstrk]

Very Sad for all Involved!

L.A. Police Kill Gunman, Child in Shootout By ANDREW DALTON, Associated Press Writer
36 minutes ago



LOS ANGELES - A toddler was shot and killed when her father used her as a shield in a gunbattle with police following an hours-long standoff, officials said. The man also died and an officer was wounded.

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The man killed Sunday night after an hours-long standoff was identified as Jose Raul Lemos, and the girl, about 17 months old, was his daughter, police said. The officer, who was not immediately identified, was shot in the shoulder and was expected to recover.

"He was using the baby as a shield," Assistant Police Chief Jim McDonnell said.

"We showed a tremendous amount of restraint, but unfortunately the suspect's actions dictated this," he said. "It's a true tragedy."

The child's mother, Lorena Lopez, said she pleaded with officers to hold their fire.

"He had problems with depression, his business was not doing well," Lopez told KNBC-TV. "I told them that he needed help, he needs a psychologist, but please don't shoot. They didn't understand, and the police fired, like, 300 shots."

It was unclear who fired the shot that hit the girl, but officers were struggling with the thought that they killed a baby, McDonnell said.

"The officers are taking it very hard," he said. "Anytime you have a baby killed, it takes its toll."

The standoff began at around 3:50 p.m. when officers responded to an area in South Los Angeles west of Watts after residents reported an armed man standing near an intersection with a toddler and behaving erratically and aggressively.

There were three exchanges of gunfire between police and Lemos, who was about 35, McDonnell told reporters. In the final exchange, at around 6:20 p.m., Lemos held the girl as he shot.

"We did everything we could to hold our fire," McDonnell said.

At one point, Lemos retreated into an apartment building, where police said he held the girl hostage.

Police called in a SWAT team and tried to speak with the man; when they at one point attempted to help a neighbor escape the area, he fired at them and they fired back, McDonnell said.

Under police regulations, officers may only fire "when it reasonably appears necessary" to protect themselves or others from death or serious injury.

The man had a 9 mm handgun and a shotgun and was intoxicated on drugs and alcohol, police said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050711/ap_on_re_us/police_shooting

 

[hillbilly]

The guy came running out of the house firing his weapon and using the baby as a shield.

Even a highly trained sniper would have found that an incredibly difficult target to cope with under those situations.

And this is the type of thing that police have to deal with as their friggin' jobs.

Damn........just damn...........

hillbilly

 

[HighVelocity]

LAPD officers kill man holding toddler when he opens fire; girl dies

Very sad story.

LOS ANGELES -- A toddler was shot and killed when her father used her as a shield in a gunbattle with police following an hours-long standoff, officials said. The man also died, and an officer was wounded.

The man killed Sunday night after the standoff was identified as Jose Raul Lemos, and the girl, about 17 months old, was his daughter, police said. The officer, who was not immediately identified, was shot in the shoulder and was expected to recover.

"He was using the baby as a shield," Assistant Police Chief Jim McDonnell said.

"We showed a tremendous amount of restraint, but unfortunately the suspect's actions dictated this," he said. "It's a true tragedy."

The child's mother, Lorena Lopez, said she pleaded with officers to hold their fire.

"He had problems with depression, his business was not doing well," Lopez told KNBC-TV. "I told them that he needed help, he needs a psychologist, but please don't shoot. They didn't understand, and the police fired, like, 300 shots."

It was unclear who fired the shot that hit the girl, but officers were struggling with the thought that they killed a baby, McDonnell said.

"The officers are taking it very hard," he said. "Anytime you have a baby killed, it takes its toll."

The standoff began at around 3:50 p.m. when officers responded to an area in South Los Angeles west of Watts after residents reported an armed man standing near an intersection with a toddler and behaving erratically and aggressively.

There were three exchanges of gunfire between police and Lemos, who was about 35, McDonnell told reporters. In the final exchange, at around 6:20 p.m., Lemos held the girl as he shot.

"We did everything we could to hold our fire," McDonnell said.

At one point, Lemos retreated into an apartment building, where police said he held the girl hostage.

Police called in a SWAT team and tried to speak with the man; when they at one point attempted to help a neighbor escape the area, he fired at them and they fired back, McDonnell said.

Under police regulations, officers may only fire "when it reasonably appears necessary" to protect themselves or others from death or serious injury.

The man had a 9 mm handgun and a shotgun and was intoxicated on drugs and alcohol, police said.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/12106307.htm

 

[centac]

Tragic for all involved

 

[jlwatts3]

What a terrible thing. The only thing I can think of would be a headshot before the situation deteriorated to this. However that is both a hard decision to make as well as a difficult task to accomplish.

 

[Nitram68]

Tragic. Too bad a sniper didn't take him out with a head shot.

 

[torpid]

If the story is accurate...

Jose Raul Lemos, I may just end up in Hell, just to kick your evil a** for eternity.

 

[winstonsmith]

What is this, a video game? They said he retreated into an apartment building, tough to get a headshot through walls, can't even do that in counterstrike. If you're thinking of it now, the police probably thought of it then. They probably didnt do it because they couldn't... He probably wasnt standing still much.


This is just one sad gangrape of a situation... I feel worst for the cops.

 

[ghostrider07]

300 shots at a man holding a hostage with a SWAT Team and trained sniper on the scene. Fire discipline problem at best, at its worst......... It was LAPD, he could have started a fire, said he was rioting and they would have all been pulled out of there.

 

[HighVelocity]

I feel worst for the cops.

I feel worst for the mother of the child. I'm sure it's hard for the cops to go home to their families knowing they took part in the death of an infant but they will go on with their lives. The cops made a choice based on the situation presented. They did what they had to do to protect themselves and unfortunately the ending was a tragic one. The mother could do nothing but plead and watch, her life will never be the same.

 

[psyopspec]

300 shots at a man holding a hostage with a SWAT Team and trained sniper on the scene.

I have severe doubts about the statement regarding the "like 300 shots" that were fired. Regardless, it became a tragedy because of one bullet in particular, and I feel for those involved.

 

[Gunsnrovers]

I too have serious doubts about "300 rounds", however a lot of rounds were fired during the incident leading up to his and the babies death.

The police did have to lay down cover fire as they tried to get some local residents out of the area as the now deceased moron tried to use them as target practice.

 

[duckslayer]

Sad, indeed.

 

[No_Brakes23]

That's just crappy.

 

[RavenVT100]

Look, if you're firing at someone, innocent bystanders are not "fair game." If I shoot someone who is an immediate threat to my life and rounds go through the wall and kill a five year old next door, I'm liable for that person's death despite the situation at hand. The power of your weapon comes with the mantle of responsibility. It's the SWAT team's job to diffuse these types of situations without killing innocent bystanders, especially children. If you have someone being used as a shield, you need to pick another option. That's my opinion.