Bush: Can't we all just get along?

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longeyes

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Bush is the enabler who has legitimized the concept that because you have a self-established economic need you have a right to enter this country illegally and work here illegally. Now he wants to tell us that we must debate with civility and dignity. Ah. Funny, I don't remember ANY open debate about illegal immigration, just homilies coming from Pennsylvania Ave. And the Great Polarizer wants to let us know that we must not pit people against one another. Oh? Well, illegals are either illegal or they're not, they're either "entitled" or they're not, they're either staying or they're not. When you empower one group and hand the bill to another, you are pitting people against one another. And Bush, NOT stupid, knows this. Mr. President, let's cut the ****.


(AP) WASHINGTON Anticipating turbulent debate over immigration, President Bush urged Congress on Thursday to grapple with the emotional issue in a way that avoids pitting groups against each other.

The Senate is to take up immigration next week — and the president and the leader of his party are starting out with different ideas about the best way to address the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants already in the country.

Bush wants Congress to create a program to allow foreigners to gain legal status in the United States for a set amount of time to do specific jobs. When the time is up, they would be required to return home without an automatic path to citizenship.

Bush said Thursday that his message is: "If you are doing a job that Americans won't do, you're welcome here for a period of time to do that job."

Immigration is a divisive issue for the country, and Republicans in particular. It splits two main GOP constituent groups — businesses and social conservatives.

The president is working hand-in-hand with employers who want cheap labor to clean hotel rooms, pick crops and do other tasks that they say keep their businesses competitive. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., says he understands those economic issues, but his focus is on the main concern voiced by the social conservatives — national security.

"The most important thing is that we keep our borders safe, we keep America safe," said Frist spokeswoman Amy Call. "It's obvious there are drugs, there are criminals coming through those borders. There are also people from known terrorist organizations coming through those borders."

The public appears to be more on the side of tougher border control. Three-quarters of respondents to a Time magazine poll in January said the United States is not doing enough to keep illegal immigrants from entering the country. Roughly the same amount said they favor a guest worker program for illegal immigrants, but 46 percent said those workers should have to return first to their native countries and apply. About 50 percent favored deporting all illegal immigrants.

Frist's bill sidesteps the question of temporary work permits and would tighten borders, add Border Patrol agents and punish employers who hire illegal immigrants. He has left open the possibility of replacing his legislation with a measure being drafted by the Senate Judiciary Committee that includes a guest worker program.

"We've scheduled two weeks of debate," his spokeswoman said, underscoring the divisiveness of the issue. "We need all two weeks."

Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., backed by labor unions, has said he will do all he can, including filibuster, to thwart Frist's legislation. So has Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., who said legislation seeking to criminalize undocumented immigrants is not in line with Republicans' stated support for faith and values and "would literally criminalize the Good Samaritan and probably even Jesus himself."

The president's spokesman would not say whether Bush was referring to such comments or the filibuster threat when he called for a "serious debate" that respects people of all backgrounds.

"When we discuss this debate, it must be done in a civil way," Bush said after he, Vice President Dick Cheney and top strategist Karl Rove met with groups who are allied with him in the debate. "It must be done in a way that brings dignity to the process. It must be done in a way that doesn't pit people against another."

While the Senate Judiciary Committee considers the issue Monday, Bush plans to attend a citizenship ceremony in Washington. Supporters of tighter border controls planned demonstrations Monday in Washington and Boston.

More than 10,000 people filled the streets of Milwaukee Thursday for what was billed as "A Day Without Latinos" to protest efforts to target undocumented workers.

"We came to work, not to be discriminated against," said Juan Hernandez, who said his boss gave him and more than a dozen other restaurant workers permission to join the protest. "We want to be equal."
 
"If you are doing a job that Americans won't do, you're welcome here for a period of time to do that job."

In other words, "The people that put me into office will be very pissed if they lose their cheap source of virtual slave labor."
 
"If you are doing a job that Americans won't do, you're welcome here for a period of time to do that job."
Sounds reasonable to me.

Of all the proposals being debated, Bush's is the only one that even comes close to being sensible. It's the only one that stipulates that an immigrant has to work and pay taxes in order to be welcomed here. No freeloaders allowed. (But hey, it's Bush's proposal, therefore it's automatically baaaad. It's obviously a payoff to those eeeevil capitalist corporations.)

Ultimately, none of the current proposals address the root issue: we're giving free tax dollars to Mexicans who successfully break into this country. Wlefare and the myriad of other free services our tax dollars provide MUST be restricted to tax-paying citizens.
 
There are no "jobs Americans won't do", there are only jobs Americans won't do for a particular wage. And while the President isn't a genius, there's no doubt he understands that: Illegal immigrants aren't a source of labor for jobs that wouldn't get done otherwise, they're just a source of cheap labor.
 
What will change if Bush's Guest Worker plan goes through except to make all this crap legitimate?

Exactly.
I love the quote from Bush "they will be required to return home when the job is done"....

Uhh, they are already required by law to return. In fact they are required by law to not be here in the first place. How many do you think will return?

All this will do is make the trip across the river more comfortable and air conditioned.
 
TexasSIGman...

And encourage more to come in anticipation of the next amnest...er, Guest Worker Program.
Biker
 
Addressing illegal immigration is going to be in play in the coming months. I think Bush's ideas are the most conservative and the best I have heard, combined with penalties and enforcement for knowingly hiring illegals. However, I am not going to be satisfied without removing the provision that children born in the US are unconditionaly US citizens. I would make it so that the parents have to apply for the child's citizenship, forcing the parents to step forward and declare themselves, eligible only if of legal status. I guess that would mean that a birth certificate would mean less than it used to. I don't doubt that the legal house of cards will be disturbed somewhat, but having a child here to avoid being deported just isn't right. That is gaming the system. I don't want illegal immigration to become another "for-the-children" issue.
 
More than 10,000 people filled the streets of Milwaukee Thursday for what was billed as "A Day Without Latinos" to protest efforts to target undocumented workers.

I'm ready for the protest "a day without taxpayers", that would wake up our ruling elites.
 
And encourage more to come in anticipation of the next amnest...er, Guest Worker Program.


Now now, it's not an amnesty you see.. An amnesty would be like, well, you see.... uhh, so OK how do I explain the difference.

Oh hell, it's an amnesty. Anyone shocked?
 
The only solution that I can imagine is a "guest worker program" or work visa. It is a rational approach no matter what Hillary says. With the numbers involved, the whole thing will eventually become the justification for a national ID system. "Show me your papers." We carry our passports when outside the US. Guest workers could do the same. Problem is that there are so many and how do you tell the difference between the "guests" and the citizen. Ultimately, I'm sorry to say, they are here to stay.

I would like to see services cut for illegal's (welfare, schools, hospitals, etc.). Maybe it could lead to a stronger enforceable guest visa approach. I view this issue both from an economic perspective and a security perspective. I try to minimize the humanity issues. If people from Mexico and Central America can migrate here unchecked, it is an open door for a terrorist with a nuclear bomb. Doors need to be closed and then monitored. Government would grow larger again as a result.... it never ends.
 
If the choice is between the President's plan, letting anyone come in unchecked and steal money (getting paid, using services, enjoying the benefits of America w/o paying taxes IS stealling), or stopping all immigaration and building a moat around America then I would have to go with the Pres's plan. It may not be the best but it is a step in the right direction.

As the son of an immigrant (Italian shortly after WWII) I can't support closing the borders. America is a nation of immigrants and that is part of being "the land of the free". My family, however, came here legally and I don't see why anyone should be different. I believe that it should be relatively easy for people to come to our country, assimilate into our culture, learn our language, and become citizens. People who break the law to get in, don't bother to learn the language, don't pay taxes, and expect to be taken care of aren't immigrant but theives.

When people say that we have to accept them because they are fleeing poverty and strife it is total BS. My family fled a war-torn country to come here, but they still got green-cards, paid taxes, learned english, and worked very hard to build lives as American citizens. They were proud of the day they became Americans, many of these immigrants don't want that.

I beleive that it should be easy to get a permit to come and work in America, the only requirements being 1) a background check 2)have a working knowledge of english and 3) be registered to pay taxes. This would eliminate many of the problems that we have with illegals and allow anyone who wants to become an American to get in. Then we would seal the border because anyone still tring to sneak across would obviously not have good intentions.

These are my thoughts, based not a small amount on emotion. This is by no means a perfect plan, but it is a guide for what I consider to be a fair immigration policy.

Thefabulousfink
 
Keep the discussion civil? Fine, just as long as "civil" is not an attempt to shut up the opposition.

Demonstration against doing anything about illegal immigration? Dumb idea. The advocates of open borders and amnesty are well advised to just shut up. They have no idea the depths of opposition to their position.
 
22-rimfire,

The work visa could work the same as a green card, you would use it to prove you belong in the country. Then you would get a drivers license or ID of the state that you reside in. your state ID works when you are in other states, why wouldn't it work for immigrants?
 
Bush's proposal makes no sense at all, and here is why:

The reason we have an illegal immigration problem is because employers can hire them cheaper than Americans. One reason they can do that is because they don't have to pay various employment taxes, and the workers don't have to pay income taxes, so they can work for less.

Now if employers start having to pay things like payroll tax and workman compensation, then the cost of hiring illegals goes up. And if you tax the illegals, then they will have to be paid more to get the same amount of money.

So, there will be a demand for illegals even after Bush's plan is instituted. Illegals will continue to be hired over legal guest workers, because they will still be cheaper.

I think it is another bad idea we can chalk up to Bush. He certainly seems to have no problem coming up with bad ideas.
 
As the son of an immigrant (Italian shortly after WWII) I can't support closing the borders.

I think when most of us talk about "closing the borders" we mean stopping illegal immigration.

None of us would be here otherwise unless you happen to be Cherokee or Sioux etc....

We're a nation of immigrants, no problem with that.

Coming across in trucks, tunnels, etc in the dark of night with no checks and balances whatsoever? Close the borders and close them TIGHT.

Did your parents come here to work, take some money and then go home?
Of course not, they came here to build a life. So it's unreasonable to expect that anyone admitted under this mess would leave either. So there should be limits on the numbers that enter.

Who decides what jobs are "not wanted by Americans", who decides who gets to obtain one of these worker cards?

The whole thing is a bad idea.

We're told that there isn't funding to protect the borders as it is, who is going to pay to protect the borders in addition to all the beauracracy needed to babysit this worker program?

Oh my head hurts.....
 
Sometimes "civility" is just a clever way of saying "Shut up!" Right now we're seeing mass protests by people who shouldn't be in this country to begin with. What will the reaction when and if American citizens finally have their say?
 
Texassigman, Most people on the THR don't want the end of all immigartion, but there are those people out there who are pushing for it. In my ideal, if it is easy for people who actually want to work and become Americans to enter the contry then the is no longer any reason to pussy-foot around the enforcement of illegals.

And Lone-gunman, The increased cost is good. The immigrants will be legal so they will have to be paid the same standard as every other citizen. This is good for us becuse there will be less incentive to hire immigrants over citizens and good for the immigrants b/c they will be paid better. In the end the better workers will be hired if they all have to be paid the same. As for companies the still want to hire illegals, I say stiffen the penalties and enforcement for both the company and the illegals.

Remember if the people who want to work and live in our society and under our laws can enter easily then there is no longer any excuse to forgive or tollerate those who continue to violate our laws.
 
So, there will be a demand for illegals even after Bush's plan is instituted. Illegals will continue to be hired over legal guest workers, because they will still be cheaper.

Agree and that is the predicament however I think the administration recognizes that and could care less. We continue to produce an under class of the working poor and killing off the middle-class simultaneously.
 
From the plans I see being floated two things will emerge:

a) We will be flooded--I mean REALLY flooded--with new immigrants, especially from Mexico.

b) The newcomers will be--let me use a nice word--emboldened by having been legitimized by our government.

I give this situation a few years before all-out ethnic conflict breaks out.

I hope I'm wrong.
 
your right, it is a mess and one that people have strong emotional feelings on (like gun control). So rather than argueing this until we both go insane, we both agree that there is a problem that need to be fixed for the sake of our counrty. The Pres's idea will likely do little on its own to fix the problem, but the one thing that I have got to say about Bush that I can't say about many politicians on the federal level, he is at least looking for solutions.

Most politicians are content to bury their heads in the sand and criticize the few who stand up to adress our problems because it is safe. We are facing some trying times as a country and the solutions are not going to be easy or popular with everyone. Few of our "leaders" are willing to stand up and take the risk that their solution might be wrong or get them voted out of office. Even if it is for the good of the country.

May God help the USA.

Edit: Read the whole sentence "stiffened the penalties and enforcement" laws aren't worth the paper if they aren't enforced, this is my IDEAL so they would be enforced.
 
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