Caught flatfooted

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ZeSpectre

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Flatiron got caught flatfooted. Thank God he's okay! Man my guts twist up like a bunch o' snakes whenever I read something like this!


http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=164445


I can't believe it! I got robbed today!!!
With all my training, practice, vigilance and making a point of ALWAYS being armed... some 20something gangbanger punk in baggy clothes got me!

I write my experience so that I may learn how to protect myself in the future and also to let others know never to let your guard down!

I was robbed at gunpoint in broad daylight today at my storage facility in my neighborhood.

I was working on a deck I am building in my backyard. I am almost finished and I loaded up my truck with the tools and stuff I don't need anymore (shovels, sledge hammer, chopsaw, fold up saw horses etc.) and I head over to my neighborhood staorage facility where I have had a storage bin for a few years because I don't like the clutter at my house. Mostly tools, camping stuff, bikes stuff like that.

It is a big warehouse building witha bunch of roll up doors all around it. Inside it is filled with individual storage lockers. Mine is right by a door so I back in and I unlock my storage door and I am taking stuff out of my truck and carrying it in my locker. It is about 3:30pm and no one around.

I carry in a load and when I come out a young punk is standing there with a ski mask on, black baggy panys, black baggy coat and it actually takes me a few seconds to realize he has a 9mm black Glock pointed right at my chest.

I put my hands up and say "be cool bro" and at that he says "give it up" and I say "be cool" again at this point he starts getting all excited and cursing and say stuff like "you think I'm playing %$#@&"

I pull out my wallet and say this is all I have. He snatches it with the gun pointing at my face now.

Now I would like to point out that I am never unarmed and because I was working in my backyard I had sweat pants on and sweatshirt and hooded zip up jacket and I had my Kel-Tec .380 in a pocket holster in my right front pocket.

He is about about 3 feet from me with the gun now pointed at my chest. For one second I contemplated knocking his arm away and rushing him but you know what... when the gun is aimed at you it's a whole different story.

I decided not to chance it and I was studying what he was wearing and I thought that if he missed my .380 maybe I could pull it when he turned to run or so I thought. All this was going through my mind in one second.

The punk them says turn around and then thats when I started to get nervous. He said what else do you got and I said thats it and I felt the gun poked in my right back just over my kidney. I was thinking that would be a real bad place to be shot. He reached in my pocket and pulled out my .380 and my freakin keys and he started to get real excited again and said "oh so you gonna smoke me?"

He started cursing something and then he pushed me and told me to start walking towards the back of the warehouse and I thought oh %$% the punk is going to shot me in the back of the building.

I said "come on man be cool don't do something we're gonna regret"

He said start walking and pushe me down to long walkway with the closest corner to turn about 15 feet down the hall. He said to me to keep walking and count to 30 and if I turned around he would shoot me.

Well I took off and turned the first corner I got to. I stopped and hugged the wall and listened I didn't hear anything. I peeped around the corner and half expected the punk to be still standing there aiming at me. I nervously walk up the hall and peered out into the main area where the door was and my truck is parked. He was not there. I ran to the door and looked out and I could not see anyone up or down the street.

Thats was it! It was over with in 5 minutes. I was filled with so much rage. I would have emptied a full magazine into that punk if I could had caught him which was a futile because this kid was gone.

I didn't know which direction he went in, I didn't even know if he had a buddy sitting outside in a car.

I called 911 and they said they would send a car over and they did... 20 minutes later a squad car shows up.

I called my sister who had an extra truck key of mine. I called the bank and put a stop on my credit cards.

I am still mad about it but the storage manager and the LEO said that the important think is the punk didn't shoot me in the back.

I keep thinking back today. There was nothing I could do at the time. I really wasn't frozen with fear or anything but I did shake a little a few hours later.

I wish somehow I could have done something. He got keys to everything I own including two vehicles and my wallet with every scrap of ID I have.

The LEO's said that 99% of the time the robbers get around the corner and grab the cash (I had $400.00 in my wallet just cashed a check!) and they toss the wallet or purse down the sewer or up on a building. If you are lucky it might get tossed on a street and some good samaritan will return it but not usually. The LEO said he took my keys so I couldn't follow him.

But they said I could change my house locks and buy a couple of steering wheel locks to give ME some comfort.

I've got a lot of thinking to do. One thing I learned is I need am extra key stashed somewhere in my truck and car that I could use in an emergency. I did have am emergency key... it was in my wallet.

I am wondering if I had another gun in my truck too would that have helped. If I had a key I could have circled the block right after the robbery and maybe caught sight of the punk!

I don't think I will ever carry another pocket pistol. If I had a shoulder or ankle holster this guy would have missed it, then at least I would have had some sort of weapon.... but again it would have been AFTER the crime.

I could keep a better eye out but this guy snuck up on my. I literally did not see him until he was standing in front of me and even then it took a good 4 seconds before I even noticed he had a gun which is really weird because I would have thought I would notice that quick.

My family keeps telling me that they don't care about the money and wallet and there just glad I wasn't shot.

The LEO and storage manager said they have never heard of a robbery where I was robbed at and that it is generally considered a pretty safe part of town. The LEO thinks it was just a crime of opportunity.

Anybody got any ideas on this scenario? I swear I am going to do some heavy thinking and planning so that this never happens to me again.

I am 48 and I have never in my life been robbed at gunpoint like that. And it's funny because I read about this all the time and I have the same feeling that a lot of victims have... I just can't believe it happened to me.

One thing is for sure.. if I have to lose a gun I'd rather lose my Kel-tec .380 than my Springfield Mil_Spec which is what I usually carry.

I guess tomorrow I get to start getting all my ID's agiain. I don't even have a drivers license and I have to reapply for the CCW again!
__________________
--- Flatiron ---
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I have a friend who got held up at gunpoint. He has a CCW and had a .32 in a front pocket. The situation was similar for him except it was a grocery store at night. He lived and wasn't hurt. What can ya do when a thug gets the drop on you and surprises you like that? He, too, did not attempt to draw his gun. He was really upset about this for a long time.
 
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Not much could be done. I think we're all glad he's okay. I'm curious as to whether having a gun stolen from him is going to affect his ability to get his CCW replaced.

The only thing I could think to change the outcome would have been to divert the punk's attention. Hand over the keys and tell him there's a bunch of cash in the glove box, or something similar. A semi-thoughtful hood would think you could have a gun in there, so he might check for himself, opening a few seconds to pull, though it goes downhill from there into a shoot-out. Speculation isn't much good in the thick of things.

Also, tossing the wallet at his feet could be useful.
 
If he was going to resist, I think his best bet wasn't drawing his .380, it would be to fumble with the wallet as he handed it over, then physically go for the perp's gun/arm. That was probably his only chance to overcome him (or give himself a chance to draw).

However this leads to the question: how many of us go the gym far less than we go to the range? How many of us practice physical self-defense or still can throw a decent punch?


I know a lot of people on the 1911 forum are saying "ya did ok, you lived" but you have to remember the victim did put himself completely at the mercy of the perp by the end of the incident. He was totally disarmed, facing away, and literally was reduced to just praying he didn't get shot execution style. That part horrified me.


I'm not suggesting anyone play John Wayne on a whim, but I know personally I don't want to let myself submit to a situation where a perp says "turn around" and I have to hope I don't take a round in the back of the head. :(
 
Who'd ever have thunk that even if you're carrying you're at a disadvantage? Geez, the guy could have had everything, including a machine gun and a BPV, and the BG still would've won.

When I was in security, we were told that we were issued arms for our own protection. Never happened. Any time a BG has the drop on you, you're basically screwed. The only time your weapon is really any good is when there are multiple targets and the BG can only pick one. Or if you are protecting a third party from robbery, rape, or other violence.

The guy is extremely lucky. Normally, a BG who gets his hands on your weapon will use it on you. Hard to say if they'd ever catch him either, as long as the weapon was wiped clean, and left at the scene.

Well, at least you know why a lot of places will let you carry concealed now. It is a 2 edged sword. Concealed deeply, you never get to it. Not concealed well enough, and you may get shot before you have a chance to employ it. Fighting it out with a BG, and you may get shot anyway, but you may get him too. Firearms are dangerous, and it is a dangerous game we choose to play.

If the guy is stupid enough to get close to you, you may be able to sweep his weapon and produce yours and fire. Something else that works, is if you can get a hold of his shirt and pull it up over his head. I did that to someone who attacked me once, then went to work on his face. A ski mask is good if you can turn it on his head. He'll be blind, for a bit, and just imagine his surprise when he pulls it off to see your weapon in his face. But, you have to be certifiably insane to actually try it. Either that, or not mind the risk of getting shot.

Any way you look at it, it is a bad thing. So he got beat. Tell him not to beat himself up over it. Bad to lose, but hey, worse to die. And the guy who did it to him was totally prepared to see anything. Lots of guys pushing up daisies who got hit that way, and did nothing to provoke it. You want absolutes? They don't exist. I will tell you this much. If you already in a situation where you can't trust the people around you, don't assume it's going to get any better. Other than that, there ain't nothing sure in this game.

Well, at least you know why sheeple dream of a day with no guns. But then, you'd be robbed at knifepoint. And in places like Britain and Canada, there are more of those than there are gun crimes here. Sucks, don't it. Chin up. It ain't getting any better. Train.

Stretch
Quit cigs 1M 5D 22h 49m ago. So far saved $221.70, 1,478 cigs not smoked and counting ...
 
When a guy is 3 feet from you, it isn't a "gun" problem, it is a H2H problem. Having yet another gun somewhere else is irrelevant. I'm glad he's OK and that the perp didn't decide to execute him.

Everyone (IMO) needs some professional gun disarm training (and H2H, and extreme close quarter weapon access/shooting) as a plan "B" for when you think he won't be satisfied with the wallet.

I'm not saying to automatically go for it as soon as he steps up, gotta make decisions based on all the nuances of the actual situation you are in.

In this case...I think I would almost definitely have taken him out when he stuck the gun in my kidney while he was flapping his yap (and about to find my gun, ratcheting up the danger immensly). In the world of firearms disarmament, the gun in the back is actually one of the easiest to handle. Actually, anytime the gun is in contact with you, it is easier.

Glad this guy is OK...hope he adds some H2H tools to his toolbox.
 
A lot of times when mugging occur, the thieves work themselves up to it - violence is NOT natural to a lot of people. They get themselves angry (that you have THEIR money), and they get their adrenaline going... That's why you get some irrational actions every so often.

Sometimes you can see the signs before things go down.
 
That's why you get some irrational actions every so often.
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Good point, add in the influence of drugs and possible peer pressure and you have a real volatile and hard to read circumstance. This is why it is impossible to say exactly how someone should handle a hypothetical (or real to someone else) situation. Too many variables. Giving the $$ and submitting may be best in one case and get you executed the next time.

My approach...make my 1st choice (fight, run, or give in) based on my best initial read of the situation. Be alert and ready to switch to plan "B" (take him/them out by any means) if I started out by giving in and they look about to kill me.
 
Stories like this are good reminders:

Having a gun is not an invisibility/invulnerability token.

Unless you stay awake 24/7/365, and have grown eyes on the back of your head, _you_,_me_,_everyone_ can be snuck up on.

What happened here wasn't that he was caught unable to draw, he was caught in condition white, and the 4 seconds he needed to change his situation wasn't spent doing that, it was spent mentally shifting gears, to get himself into a mental position. By the time he'd done that, he'd lost the initiative, and was playing gote. (a go term: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Gote), which is another way of saying he'd lost the OODA loop race.

It _can_ happen to anyone. Our knowledge and training tilts the odds in our favor, but its not a guarantee.
 
This is why I think that the biggest gun possible argument is flawed. Carrying a service pistol often means using some really complex concealment methods.

Now obviously, if a guy has his gun trained on you tying to draw is likely going to get you shot, but what if you can get behind some concealment? You would only have a few seconds at most to draw, and being able to retrieve a J-Frame or a .380 compact from a pocket is likely all you will have time for. Think about trying to draw a 1911 or other service pistol from under several layers of clothing and holster that is meant to hide the gun, not facilitate its use. There is a good chance you won't have it ready before the assailant is upon you.

Obviously having the pocket gun won't help you when there is no-where to run, but I think that too many people don't factor in the time it takes them to get their sidearm into action.
 
1) No cover
2) Nowhere to run
3) No one around to call 911
4) His gun is out and pointed, yours is in your pocket . . .

Yeah, giving up might have been the best move. It depends on your gut read of the bad guy - which in this case said "don't mess with him."
 
I just made up my mind

to carry a "Dummy" wallet. Coupla' bucks of chump change, expired drivers license and credit cards in an old tattered wallet. Gonna keep my LTC in the real wallet with the rest of my ID's.

...and I'm ordering a shoulder holster today.

Thanks for sharing.
 
It dosen't matter if you are Bruce Lee, Wild Bill Hickcock and Chesty Puller all rolled into one. When the BGs have the drop on you, you are in big trouble. You have to make the call right then if this is worth losing my life or becoming crippled over.
There were hopeful signs that this was a simple mugging; ski mask, day light, etc. But it could have just as easily have been a rape or abduction. He made the right call.
The would haves, could haves, should haves will probably bother this guy for awhile BUT:1. no one was seriously hurt, 2. he learned something, and 3. next time he probably won't make the same mistakes.
Sometimes when TSHTF that is the best you can hope for.
 
I'm going to carry a "Dummy" wallet. Coupla' bucks of chump change, expired drivers license and credit cards in an old tattered wallet. Gonna keep my LTC in the real wallet with the rest of my ID's.
Click to expand...

That's always been my plan. I have a small secondary wallet that I bought to keep my metro fare card in (so it's always with me). I've "beefed" it up a bit with $20 and a couple of those realistic looking fake credit cards that come in the applications all the time so it looks pretty realistic and has the $20 to sweeten the pot but it has NO personally identifiable info in it.

My plan (if possible and practical) is to fake a fumble and drop or toss it away from myself, off to the bad guy's gun side and maybe a little behind if possible so he has to twist to get it, and then either RUN (preferred) draw (second choice), or tackle (last resort option) if the distraction is successful.

I don't know if it would actually work but I feel better for having at least some sort of plan.


EDIT, this is the fake.
fake.gif
 
cheating death

"Sounds to me" like he was in a stage rehearsal for cold blooded murder and the "actor," as they call the criminals in the PA Crime Code, still is suffering from stage fright. Oh well, perhaps the next time!

If you had a steel blade on you, and he was at one time only three feet distance from you, then you would have had the opportunity to use that.
Ask any friendly police officer about your chances using that tactic.

Who knows but what a loud passing by car, or rustling sound from a racoon in nearby leaves, or indigestion had distracted this thug from going on in his actions to the next level. I'm presuming that the next few robberies by this "perp" will degenerate to more than robbery.

Add unmanned self storge units to ATM machine, self car washes, romantic look outs, and the others on the list of risky places to be; especially in darkness!
 
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Glad he's okay. He got the jump on him, nothing to be ashamed about and IMHO he did everything he could to survive. Justice will come to that scumbag.
 
hmmmm

That is a strange and disturbing story, however it is an educational opportunity for all of us.

Alertness would have helped, but I also think that he might have tried to draw... Plenty of folks carry their wallet in their front pocket and it certainly isn't the most common a place for a gun ...

So, he reaches for his "wallet" in his front pocket and then takes out the gun and shoots the punk...
 
Not sure what I would have done in his place. I carry a similar rig. I think it's safe to say the guy did the right thing.

Here's some things to minimize this in the future:
-I like Zespectre's dummy wallet. GOOD idea. The 20 bucks is often good enough to keep the junkies away.
-A list of phone numbers to the Credit Card companies is good
-Keep copies of the Conceal and Carry Permit stashed away at home (so you can provide the ID number, etc.)
-Keep a list of serial numbers in case your pistol is ever taken away from you.
-Here's something else, if your primary permit is taken away and you have to re-apply, keep an out of state permit with reciprocity for your state around so you can still legally carry.
 
ZeSpectre: Is this a buddy of yours? Someone you can get in contact with?

If so tell him to screw those steering wheel locks!! Any thief with 1 minute and a hacksaw will just cut through the steering wheel ring and remove the lock. He needs the vehicle rekeyed, and pronto!!!

Hotwiring on one of these newer cars with electronic chips in the keys(I hope his has this feature) is a lot harder than just cutting the wheel to remove the wheel lock device.

Glad he's OK.
 
Flatiron, You made the right decisions, I think you trusted your instincts/judgement and with a little bit of luck, you lived through a harrowing situation. I've never been held up at gunpoint, so I can only imagine how that situation must feel. There probably won't be any Monday morning QB here, since you made it out alive, and that's what counts.

One thing you might want to consider is to coat pocket carry a J frame. I can get caught flat footed just like most other people, and I usually (not always) have my hand on a j frame in case something happens. The fastest draw is no draw. Again, you made the correct decision, you didn't think it was necessary/possible to have the situation degenerate into a shootout, and you made the right call. I'm glad you're here to tell your story as a reminder that ANYONE, no matter their experience or training can get caught flat footed.
 
MY shootin' Iron is stored in a belt holster right ABOVE my wallet...

Or in the same fanny pack AS my wallet...

Aint the robber gonna be surprised when the "wallet grabbing hand" spits out a couple of .40 cal hollowpoints instead of cash?
 
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